The problem of evil

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

From what I've heard, Sanders has some interesting ideas. Whether a candidate is democrat or republican or independent doesn't matter to me, if I see Christ like qualities in them then I'll be interested to hear more about what they have to say.

Way to miss the point...

 

[Locutus]

In the case of your friend, I already said I don't know her and therefore I won't judge her. As for the suffering children, I know of some that I've helped to eleviate their suffering I hope others help as well, that's all I can say with certainty.

I don't ask for you to finalise the case for all humanity, so you're off the hook there

The question, as asked, is the only possible conclusion which can be drawn from your response that 'god helps those he loves'. It's such a profoundly awful prospect ... that the creator of the universe might act in the way alleged, that it demands consideration. If of nothing else, then of the humans who indulge such ugly vanity.

We may not be able to know why a god would behave thusly, but we can know ALOT about a person who travels that path. They're either spectacularly stupid, or have become so twisted by their lust for immortality that they've effectively become sociopaths.

 

[Chriliman]

I don't ask for you to finalise the case for all humanity, so you're off the hook there

The question, as asked, is the only possible conclusion which can be drawn from your response that 'god helps those he loves'. It's such a profoundly awful prospect ... that the creator of the universe might act in the way alleged, that it demands consideration. If of nothing else, then of the humans who indulge such ugly vanity.

We may not be able to know why a god would behave thusly, but we can know ALOT about a person who travels that path. They're either spectacularly stupid, or have become so twisted by their lust for immortality that they've effectively become sociopaths.

True blessings from God deal with the eternal not with the perishing physical world. When someone thinks God has blessed then with tons of money they then realize the true blessing is when they give it to others in order to help them, it pleases God when we help the poor or anyone in need, but again it's not all about money either, there are many ways to bless people who are poor in spirit by showing them the love of God in whatever particular situation.

 

[Locutus]

True blessings from God deal with the eternal not with the perishing physical world. When someone thinks God has blessed then with tons of money they then realize the true blessing is when they give it to others in order to help them, it pleases God when we help the poor or anyone in need, but again it's not all about money either, there are many ways to bless people who are poor in spirit by showing them the love of God in whatever particular situation.

Thanks, but I'm not asking for your opinion how and why rich men are blessed.

I want to know if you are comfortable with a rich man claiming god rearranged the universe in order for him to gain a first world boon, while knowing that god is not rearranging the universe to feed a starving child?

 

[Chriliman]

I want to know if you are comfortable with a rich man claiming god rearranged the universe in order for him to gain a first world boon, while knowing that god is not rearranging the universe to feed a starving child?

No, I'm not comfortable with that. People are free to build up their treasures on earth if they like. Those who help the starving children are building their treasure in heaven with God, not with man.

 

[FireDragon76]

The point that you're not addressing is that for many people, myself included, it's not possible to see your god as loving at all. i find it the heights of insanity to believe in a god that on the one hand can help someone find their car keys, and on the other fails to prevent a child from being molested and murdered. Especially since that god could have created a universe in which people never choose to molest and murder children...

That's one reason I've never been a fan of petitionary prayers. It just never made sense to me. Bad things happen to people for seemingly no reason - I've always been acutely aware of that, it seems the height of narcissism to assume that prayers to God will change the outcomes of what will happen. I know for other people, they find a great deal of comfort in prayers like that, but I rarely did. I guess I'm more cerebral and always have been when it comes to these things (which I think is actually perfectly OK), but it's a pity that Christian spirituality is so limiting when it comes to "head vs. heart".

If God exists and he's omnibenevolent and all-powerful, then his goodness has to be of a kind that makes concepts such as "good" incomprehensible. In which case, religious authorities become non-authorities, because any ideas they could have about God's will are going to be as far off the mark as shooting a firework up into the sky to try to land it on the moon. And yet, Christians give enormous weight to their particular religious traditions or interpretations of the Bible, and use such interpretations to deny rights and liberties to others based on their particular superstitions. This is all foolishness and laziness, but it is the state of affairs.

 

[Locutus]

No, I'm not comfortable with that.

I'm pleased to hear that.

What do you think makes people think/say such awful things?

 

[Chriliman]

I'm pleased to hear that.

What do you think makes people think/say such awful things?

Pride.

 

[Locutus]

Pride.

Really? Simple pride?

I suspect it's considerably more and considerably worse than that. Pride is almost benevolent by comparison.

 

[Achilles6129]

If God undoes all evil wouldn't that be like evil never happened? It seems more accurate to say that God stops evil and destroys it.

Destroying evil would be the same thing as undoing evil.

 

[Achilles6129]

Your belief in number 1 seems to go against everything human beings understand about morality. Unnecessary suffering is bad. An omnipotent god can prevent unnecessary suffering. Therefore, an omnipotent god desires human suffering more than its abolishment. Applying the term "good" to such a being stretches the definition beyond the breaking point.

Number 2 is equally a mess. You can't "undo" suffering, even for an omnipotent god. It exists as it's happening. Any action after the fact is immaterial to the suffering that occurs, as it's happening.

1) God himself says that he cannot abolish evil without harming the elect. "Omnipotent" is only defined by being able to do things that you are logically able to do.

2) Your very sentence contradicts itself. If God is omnipotent he can obviously undo an action; in fact, that's the entire point of the doctrine of purgation of sins.

 

[Chriliman]

Really? Simple pride?

I suspect it's considerably more and considerably worse than that. Pride is almost benevolent by comparison.

What word would you use then?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

1) God himself says that he cannot abolish evil without harming the elect. "Omnipotent" is only defined by being able to do things that you are logically able to do.

Are you able to do things that you are logically able to do? If so, are you omnipotent?

 

[Locutus]

What word would you use then?

As previously mentioned - spectaculatly stupid, or consumed by lust (for immortality).

 

[Chriliman]

As previously mentioned - spectaculatly stupid,

If this is true then we should try to help them by educating them, while not trying to force our own worldviews onto them, but rather explain to them why we believe what we believe.

or consumed by lust (for immortality).

I've never met anyone who's admitted they are consumed by lust for immortality. I have met many who are in love with God and who are loving and caring people who choose to serve others in humble ways as Jesus did.

Thanks for the conversation, it's been interesting.

 

[Achilles6129]

Are you able to do things that you are logically able to do? If so, are you omnipotent?

Please.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

1) God himself says that he cannot abolish evil without harming the elect. "Omnipotent" is only defined by being able to do things that you are logically able to do.

What's logically inconsistent with a god creating a world in which free willed beings choose not to inflict suffering upon each other?

2) Your very sentence contradicts itself. If God is omnipotent he can obviously undo an action; in fact, that's the entire point of the doctrine of purgation of sins.

That's nonsensical. You can't undo suffering that's occurred.Even if a god wiped the memory of everyone involved in the suffering, the suffering had existed nonetheless. Even if a god "rewound" time to change an outcome, the suffering had existed nonetheless.

 

[Locutus]

If this is true then we should try to help them by educating them, while not trying to force our own worldviews onto them, but rather explain to them why we believe what we believe.



I've never met anyone who's admitted they are consumed by lust for immortality. I have met many who are in love with God and who are loving and caring people who choose to serve others in humble ways as Jesus did.

Thanks for the conversation, it's been interesting.

This sort of stupid defies education. The person I referred to has a university education, and is widely travelled. She is still undertaking studies, in fact, in her retirement. In other words, if you're so determined to obtain your desires (immortality, cures for illness, an extra bathroom, etc), that you wilfully overlook the profound awfulness of the scenario under discussion, no amount of information is going to budge you.

I might add, the woman in question does do a little charity work here and there. Enough to salve the conscience, at least.

Finally, you're hardly likely to get anyone to admit a lust for immortality. I can't think why you would expect it to be admitted to. To be honest, I don't think you do expect it to be admitted to, because you recognise that it's merely another kind of fleshly lust. One which can drive good people to do and say terrible things .... as per the subject of this dialogue.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Please.

So you are capable of doing things that you aren't logically capable of doing then, in which case you are not omnipotent?

 

[Dan Bert]

First God creates good and evil....our choices for evil over good results in wrath and this make us stronger..The good people chooses to repent and learn from their mistakes....those others do not and repeat the same mistakes or go on to greater mistakes until they are claimed by the grave not receiving their full measure of days in this world.
Isaiah 45:7 -
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
dan

It seems to me the problem of evil is a real problem, and it is my main barrier to faith. I just have trouble believing in a benevolent creator that cares about people- I see no evidence for it in this world. There is gross unfairness and suffering in the world and I don't believe Christians can account for it.

I grant that I could be wrong, that somehow there is a God in charge of it all and its just like the Christian God and is beyond my understanding. But it would be pretty cruel for such a being to hold honest doubts against me, given the quality of evidence he's left.

And honestly, if it is the case that God exists and he has such a mysterious plan, what does that say about Christian epistemology? How could we take any religious authority seriously if God's will is so inscrutable? It seems to me much more skepticism of religious claims are warranted, regardless of whether or not the Christian God exists.