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We've been through this before:
1) God has a good reason for permitting evil
2) There is a divine intervention; God undoes all evil.
Clearly you don't accept these lines of reasoning as sufficient. I do.
No, I think that universalism goes against Scripture.Interesting. Do you believe everyone will be saved? Just varying degrees of firey refinement in the ages to come that will ultimately lead to full restoration of creation? The logic of a loving God seems to point to this. Thoughts?
Yes, that's what makes the will free, otherwise free will has no meaning. Sin can be defined as opposition to the will of God.
Yes, there are no perfect, pat answers to the problem of evil. This universe, man and beast and the elements, are radically free to operate as they will, within only whatever physical constraints exist for them. Only man has the power to constrain himself in the moral sphere. We're the hands of god here; we play god-or the devil-or something inbetween.
It just means that we all have limitations-and there's nothing here on earth that prevents us from doing as we will within those limitations. If I want to kill someone I'm completely free to try-I may or may not be stopped by, for example, the desire of some other being opposing my action. If I want to lift a two ton boulder I'll be constrained by my physical abilities. Animals likewise do as they will. Earthquakes, tornadoes, disease-all freely operating-and perhaps destroying- as nature proceeds along its path. We can call these acts of God or the will of God but we recognize in them that the universe is what it is-regardless of our preferences in the matter.
yes there is freedom in heaven, without freedom goodness and love is not possible. there is not evil in heaven because to be evil is hell.
It may well be impossible for God to create a world with free creatures without the possibility of evil. God's omnipotence doesn't apply to anything that's outside of his nature.
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The point that you're not addressing is that for many people, myself included, it's not possible to see your god as loving at all. i find it the heights of insanity to believe in a god that on the one hand can help someone find their car keys, and on the other fails to prevent a child from being molested and murdered. Especially since that god could have created a universe in which people never choose to molest and murder children...
I'm sure you and I can agree that there are forces at work in our universe that neither of us fully understand.
We've been through this before:
1) God has a good reason for permitting evil
2) There is a divine intervention; God undoes all evil.
Clearly you don't accept these lines of reasoning as sufficient. I do.
We've been through this before:
1) God has a good reason for permitting evil
2) There is a divine intervention; God undoes all evil.
Clearly you don't accept these lines of reasoning as sufficient. I do.
No, I think that universalism goes against Scripture.
Your belief in number 1 seems to go against everything human beings understand about morality. Unnecessary suffering is bad. An omnipotent god can prevent unnecessary suffering. Therefore, an omnipotent god desires human suffering more than its abolishment. Applying the term "good" to such a being stretches the definition beyond the breaking point.
Number 2 is equally a mess. You can't "undo" suffering, even for an omnipotent god. It exists as it's happening. Any action after the fact is immaterial to the suffering that occurs, as it's happening.
A few days ago, a Christian friend told me god had helped her secure her dream home. Others had made offers on the house and been accepted, but had a family emergency and were unable to proceed. My friend was effectively saying that god had caused a problem in the lives of the other party, so she could have house A instead of having to buy house B - which had one less bathroom and was therefore inadequate. She said this, sitting in the lounge room of the dream home, on her new sofa. The TV was on, and in another act of god, an ad about the plight of starving African children aired. I kid you not.
Ah, the traditional fall-back position, GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways).I'm sure you and I can agree that there are forces at work in our universe that neither of us fully understand.
A bit of God of the Gaps in there too. If we were playing religious argument bingo, that could have been a decisive moment.Ah, the traditional fall-back position, GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways).
Ouch! That's scarily close to the 'trickle-down economics' argument...God blesses those He loves so they can bless other's in need, not so they can hoard their blessings for themselves. I'll refrain from judging your Christian friend because I don't know her, but it could be that she is actually blessing others in other ways other than with her financial wealth.
Ouch! That's scarily close to the 'trickle-down economics' argument...
God blesses those He loves so they can bless other's in need, not so they can hoard their blessings for themselves. I'll refrain from judging your Christian friend because I don't know her, but it could be that she is actually blessing others in other ways other than with her financial wealth.
So he doesn't love skeletal, dying innocent children, suffering incredible pain and torment from birth? But he does love old, fat, wealthy, racist bigots who indulge the vanity that the creator of the universe is prepared to cause another family pain so that she might have an extra bathroom?
Please let me know if I have that right
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