The problem of evil

ToddNotTodd said:

i think the point is that he believes that anyone unwilling to type it actually believes deep down, because hey, if they really didn't believe they would have no other reason to not type it.

Which of course is a false dichotomy, as anyone who's posting in the Philosophy section should know...

Click to expand...

It would not make sense for someone to refuse to type "Jesus is Lord" if they did believe in God.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

jason_delisle said:

Dunno, perhaps to get me to shut up? Or figure out where I was going with the issue? Did you feel like it would be wrong to type those words?

Click to expand...

I don't want you to shut up. I want you to address arguments instead of avoiding them and hiding behind what you think is some sort of telling experiment.

jason_delisle said:

It would not make sense for someone to refuse to type "Jesus is Lord" if they did believe in God.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

LOL

Any chance of credibility, just went bye bye.

jason_delisle said:

It would not make sense for someone to refuse to type "Jesus is Lord" if they did believe in God.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

It would not make sense to you. But that does not preclude other reasons existing.

Tell me why logically there can't be other reasons besides actually believing, without resorting to "it doesn't make sense to me".

jason_delisle said:

I can't see your religious affiliation but I am assuming you are an atheist of sort...is that correct. Have you always been an atheist or did you at one time considered yourself a Christian and later renounced your faith? I know it is an off topic question so you don't need to provide an answer. I am simply trying to challenge the scriptures to test it's truth and accuracy.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Former Christian, Catholic to be exact.

First of all I would like to apologize for the frustration. My experiment was entirely personal in nature in order to answer or better understand some theological questions I am having. In order to get an honest assessment would require you to be completely unaware and off guard.

I will reveal my experiment. It was an effort to test (1 Corinthians 12:3). I understand scripture is saying that a person can only truly confess that "Jesus is Lord" by the power of the Holy Spirit. However, I asked myself, "Is it possible that someone would be incapable of simply stating "Jesus is Lord" if the Holy Spirit did not dwell within them? Is there some kind of force that prevents them and is it only up to God to determine whether or not their faith grows.

So as an experiment, I asked if an atheist could simply state "Jesus is Lord". The fact that many were unable to do so was evidence to support my theory. However, the fact that one person was able to raised more questions. I asked if that person was always an atheist or did they at one time considered himself saved? I thought that if the Holy Spirit dwelt in that person at one time, perhaps it still dwelt within that person even after they rejected God. Which would be why that person was able to say "Jesus is Lord" even though they claimed he did not believe it.

Many responded that they could not say "Jesus is Lord" simply because they believed it to be dishonest. And I would agree to an extent.

Which brings me to another question about predestination. If only the Holy Spirit can bring someone to faith, why only use its power for some and not all?

I know there is a lot of flaws to the experiment. I confess that refusal to make a statement that would compromise ones integrity is a powerful motivator so I admit that it does not really answer my questions. Instead, more questions are raised.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Chany said:

Former Christian, Catholic to be exact.

Click to expand...

Interesting.

jason_delisle said:

First of all I would like to apologize for the frustration. My experiment was entirely personal in nature in order to answer or better understand some theological questions I am having. In order to get an honest assessment would require you to be completely unaware and off guard.

I will reveal my experiment. It was an effort to test (1 Corinthians 12:3). I understand scripture is saying that a person can only truly confess that "Jesus is Lord" by the power of the Holy Spirit. However, I asked myself, "Is it possible that someone would be incapable of simply stating "Jesus is Lord" if the Holy Spirit did not dwell within them? Is there some kind of force that prevents them and is it only up to God to determine whether or not their faith grows.

So as an experiment, I asked if an atheist could simply state "Jesus is Lord". The fact that many were unable to do so was evidence to support my theory.

Click to expand...

There is a simpler explanation, and we already gave it to you.

jason_delisle said:

Many responded that they could not say "Jesus is Lord" simply because they believed it to be dishonest. And I would agree to an extent.

Click to expand...

There you go... That's the reason.

Archaeopteryx said:

There is a simpler explanation, and we already gave it to you.

There you go... That's the reason.

Click to expand...

Right, so the question I must now try to answer is this: "If I can only plant the seed of faith and water it, why does God only choose to allow some seeds to grow and not others? I am now drawn to the parable of the farmer sowing the seeds and the various conditions of soil. I will have to look more into that to get an answer.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

jason_delisle said:

First of all I would like to apologize for the frustration. My experiment was entirely personal in nature in order to answer or better understand some theological questions I am having. In order to get an honest assessment would require you to be completely unaware and off guard.

I will reveal my experiment. It was an effort to test (1 Corinthians 12:3). I understand scripture is saying that a person can only truly confess that "Jesus is Lord" by the power of the Holy Spirit. However, I asked myself, "Is it possible that someone would be incapable of simply stating "Jesus is Lord" if the Holy Spirit did not dwell within them? Is there some kind of force that prevents them and is it only up to God to determine whether or not their faith grows.

So as an experiment, I asked if an atheist could simply state "Jesus is Lord". The fact that many were unable to do so was evidence to support my theory. However, the fact that one person was able to raised more questions. I asked if that person was always an atheist or did they at one time considered himself saved? I thought that if the Holy Spirit dwelt in that person at one time, perhaps it still dwelt within that person even after they rejected God. Which would be why that person was able to say "Jesus is Lord" even though they claimed he did not believe it.

Many responded that they could not say "Jesus is Lord" simply because they believed it to be dishonest. And I would agree to an extent.

Which brings me to another question about predestination. If only the Holy Spirit can bring someone to faith, why only use its power for some and not all?

I know there is a lot of flaws to the experiment. I confess that refusal to make a statement that would compromise ones integrity is a powerful motivator so I admit that it does not really answer my questions. Instead, more questions are raised.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Christian faith and belief in Jesus is not an experiment and should not be played around with. If someone sincerely does not believe that Jesus is Lord, they should not say it, and they shouldn't have it suggested to them that they need to say it, just to prove a point.

You have raised more questions for yourself for obvious reasons. Christianity is not some kind of social experiment.

amariselle said:

Christian faith and belief in Jesus is not an experiment and should not be played around with. If someone sincerely does not believe that Jesus is Lord, they should not say it, and they shouldn't have it suggested to them that they need to say it, just to prove a point.

You have raised more questions for yourself for obvious reasons. Christianity is not some kind of social experiment.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you are right and I was being foolish. Thank you.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

jason_delisle said:

Perhaps you are right and I was being foolish. Thank you.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

I'm not trying to lecture you or condemn you, I just really hope you are careful about how you approach the Christian faith and those who are not Christians. It is important to search the Scriptures and pray for discernment, but we are also not to test God.

bhsmte said:

Another question would be;

Are you capable of intellectual honesty?

Click to expand...

Absolutely.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

jason_delisle said:

Absolutely.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

I have not seen this demonstrated by you.

bhsmte said:

I have not seen this demonstrated by you.

Click to expand...

I am sorry you feel that way. Can you be more specific?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

jason_delisle said:

I am sorry you feel that way. Can you be more specific?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Anyone who makes the giant leap, they can determine what someone believes or doesnt believe, in the manner you presented, is not intellectually honest.

jason_delisle said:

I am sorry you feel that way. Can you be more specific?

Click to expand...

Not responding to posts that make valid challenges to your beliefs is a form of intellectual dishonesty, at least it is to me.

ToddNotTodd said:

Not responding to posts that make valid challenges to your beliefs is a form of intellectual dishonesty, at least it is to me.

Click to expand...

Well, in that case, that can go both ways.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

FireDragon76 said:

It seems to me the problem of evil is a real problem, and it is my main barrier to faith. I just have trouble believing in a benevolent creator that cares about people- I see no evidence for it in this world. There is gross unfairness and suffering in the world and I don't believe Christians can account for it.

Click to expand...

In order to throw this thread back onto the rails, here is an answer as to why there is evil and how Christians can account for it.

The Bible describes God as holy (Isaiah 6:3), righteous (Psalm 7:11), just (Deuteronomy 32:4), and sovereign (Daniel 4:17-25). These attributes tell us the following about God: (1) God is capable of preventing evil, and (2) God desires to rid the universe of evil. So, if both of these are true, why does God allow evil? If God has the power to prevent evil and desires to prevent evil, why does He still allow evil? Perhaps a practical way to look at this question would be to consider some alternative ways people might have God run the world:

1) God could change everyone’s personality so that they cannot sin. This would also mean that we would not have a free will. We would not be able to choose right or wrong because we would be “programmed” to only do right. Had God chosen to do this, there would be no meaningful relationships between Him and His creation.

Instead, God made Adam and Eve innocent but with the ability to choose good or evil. Because of this, they could respond to His love and trust Him or choose to disobey. They chose to disobey. Because we live in a real world where we can choose our actions but not their consequences, their sin affected those who came after them (us). Similarly, our decisions to sin have an impact on us and those around us and those who will come after us.

2) God could compensate for people’s evil actions through supernatural intervention 100 percent of the time. God would stop a drunk driver from causing an automobile accident. God would stop a lazy construction worker from doing a substandard job on a house that would later cause grief to the homeowners. God would stop a father who is addicted to drugs or alcohol from doing any harm to his wife, children, or extended family. God would stop gunmen from robbing convenience stores. God would stop high school bullies from tormenting the brainy kids. God would stop thieves from shoplifting. And, yes, God would stop terrorists from flying airplanes into buildings.

While this solution sounds attractive, it would lose its attractiveness as soon as God’s intervention infringed on something we wanted to do. We want God to prevent horribly evil actions, but we are willing to let “lesser-evil” actions slide—not realizing that those “lesser-evil” actions are what usually lead to the “greater-evil” actions. Should God only stop actual sexual affairs, or should He also block our access to pornography or end any inappropriate, but not yet sexual, relationships? Should God stop “true” thieves, or should He also stop us from cheating on our taxes? Should God only stop murder, or should He also stop the “lesser-evil” actions done to people that lead them to commit murder? Should God only stop acts of terrorism, or should He also stop the indoctrination that transformed a person into a terrorist?

3) Another choice would be for God to judge and remove those who choose to commit evil acts. The problem with this possibility is that there would be no one left, for God would have to remove us all. We all sin and commit evil acts (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). While some people are more evil than others, where would God draw the line? Ultimately, all evil causes harm to others.

Instead of these options, God has chosen to create a “real” world in which real choices have real consequences. In this real world of ours, our actions affect others. Because of Adam’s choice to sin, the world now lives under the curse, and we are all born with a sin nature (Romans 5:12). There will one day come a time when God will judge the sin in this world and make all things new, but He is purposely “delaying” in order to allow more time for people to repent so that He will not need to condemn them (2 Peter 3:9). Until then, He IS concerned about evil. When He created the Old Testament laws, the goal was to discourage and punish evil. He judges nations and rulers who disregard justice and pursue evil. Likewise, in the New Testament, God states that it is the government’s responsibility to provide justice in order to protect the innocent from evil (Romans 13). He also promises severe consequences for those who commit evil acts, especially against the "innocent" (Mark 9:36-42).

In summary, we live in a real world where our good and evil actions have direct consequences and indirect consequences upon us and those around us. God’s desire is that for all of our sakes we would obey Him that it might be well with us (Deuteronomy 5:29). Instead, what happens is that we choose our own way, and then we blame God for not doing anything about it. Such is the heart of sinful man. But Jesus came to change men’s hearts through the power of the Holy Spirit, and He does this for those who will turn from evil and call on Him to save them from their sin and its consequences (2 Corinthians 5:17). God does prevent and restrain some acts of evil. This world would be MUCH WORSE were not God restraining evil. At the same time, God has given us the ability to choose good and evil, and when we choose evil, He allows us, and those around us, to suffer the consequences of evil. Rather than blaming God and questioning God on why He does not prevent all evil, we should be about the business of proclaiming the cure for evil and its consequences—Jesus Christ!


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Kenny'sID said:

I would expect "rude" to fall into the picture somewhere along the line...whatever it takes. You don't see speaking of my God as you do in my presence as rude?

Click to expand...

No, you came onto a debate forum when you knew the problem of evil was going to be the topic at hand. In that topic it's inevitable that the god being discussed is going to receive criticism. If you didn't want to hear critiques of Christianity or people expressing inconsistencies with your god story, then you didn't have to come on here.

In short, people arguing one legitimate side of a debate is not rude.

Kenny'sID said:

And I could easily pick and choose other posts here that stand out to me as rude but I simply don't care, they don't bother me. Rude is clearly not a concern to anyone.. It's just a matter of whatever you can grab hold of at the moment. It's not rude for you to speak your mind, yet it is for me when you need something as defense. Plus you know as well as I do about online discussion boards and how a thick skin it a must. And that by no means is to say you have reason to need thick skin for my comment.

Click to expand...

The problem is your criticism had nothing to do with the topic, you went after the personal integrity and honesty of every atheist on this board. You called ToddNotTodd a liar, simply because he expresses a different belief than the one you hold.

Can you see the difference between arguing a side in a debate, and personally attacking the integrity of other forum members?

That's why I suggested an apology was in order.

Kenny'sID said:

Honestly, I think I hit a nerve and instead of t sticking with the content of the post itself, you now go into accusations of rude, when once again, I'm being no more rude than the next man. I just reread the post in question and I don't see rude at all, I see honest and forthright opinion and exactly how I see Todd and the big picture here as to why many Atheists do what they do here based on what I observe, just exactly how I see others posting here.

Click to expand...

Then you have no understanding of atheists, or why we are here. However, with that in mind it might be an idea to listen to our viewpoints and learn our real motivations, instead of writing a condescending post calling Todd and other like minded people fundamentally dishonest.

Kenny'sID said:

I was getting tired of the same ol' same ol' here anyway, and the comment was part of my getting near wrapping up my part in the thread, so now'd be as good a time as any with the extra advantage of, no one gets their feelings hurt anymore...not by me anyway.

Click to expand...

If you would like to ask any question in regards to why I am here, or why I hold the beliefs I do, I am more than willing to answer your questions. By all means, ask away.