The problem of evil

[bhsmte]

There could be different answers. The way the question is asked makes a difference in the response.

I asked; Is it immoral to lobby?

You responded; I don't know there is one answer to that.

Could you give me examples (according to you), when the answers would be different?

 

[bhsmte]

Bhsmte: Did you happen to check out the link I showed you? Does the fact that this guy was killed like this and then it was dismissed as justified mean that his rights weren't violated just because it was ruled that way? http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...g-psychotic-man-death-video-article-1.2644038

Courts determine whether rights are violated. They are not perfect.

 

[Resha Caner]

I asked; Is it immoral to lobby?

You responded; I don't know there is one answer to that.

Could you give me examples (according to you), when the answers would be different?

Lobbying is not moral or immoral in and of itself. I can think of two ways that would distinguish the morality of lobbying. One would be the means, so, for example, lobbying through bribery would be immoral. Second would be the issue, so, for example, lobbying to deprive some group of equal access to government services would be immoral.

 

[bhsmte]

Lobbying is not moral or immoral in and of itself. I can think of two ways that would distinguish the morality of lobbying. One would be the means, so, for example, lobbying through bribery would be immoral. Second would be the issue, so, for example, lobbying to deprive some group of equal access to government services would be immoral.

Ok, so it depends on the circumstance and the individuals perception. But lobbying in and of itself, is not moral or immoral.

 

[Loudmouth]

Was that "right" granted to the police by our constitution?

Yes.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The other key phrase is "unreasonable searches and seizures". It is reasonable for the police to arrest someone if they see them in the act of a crime. It is reasonable for a police officer to enter a residence when there is ample evidence (i.e. probable cause) that a crime is progress or that evidence will be destroyed. All of these interpretations come from the courts, whose words carry the weight of the Constitution.

Does it make you feel safe and secure in your person, home or possessions knowing a cop can come into your home without a warrant and rummage through your things on this basis?

They can't do that. They can only rummage through the immediate area where they find you.

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The other key phrase is "unreasonable searches and seizures". It is reasonable for the police to arrest someone if they see them in the act of a crime. It is reasonable for a police officer to enter a residence when there is ample evidence (i.e. probable cause) that a crime is progress or that evidence will be destroyed. All of these interpretations come from the courts, whose words carry the weight of the Constitution.

I've had cops come into my home without permission or warrant based on nothing more than suspicion. A neighbor accused me of making too much noise one night and called the cops. Cops showed up and looked in my living room window before yelling at me to come to the door, which they hadn't even knocked on. When I opened the door, they pushed their way in past me and then started questioning me about the noise I was accused by an anonymous person of making. So, based on an accusation of making too much noise, I get cops pushing their way into my home without permission or warrant. After this, they say they saw me "lunge" toward my nightstand when they yelled at me through the window, so they asked to see what I was lunging for. When I told them I was simply reaching for clothes to put on to answer the door, they accused me of possibly lunging for a weapon. When I told them I wasn't doing that, they said they were going to search my nightstand without permission or warrant "for their safety based on suspicion" (there's that word again). They found I had a pistol there, but didn't believe me when I told them I wasn't lunging for it.

 

[Loudmouth]

I've had cops come into my home without permission or warrant based on nothing more than suspicion.

Yeah, it's called probable cause.

A neighbor accused me of making too much noise one night and called the cops. Cops showed up and looked in my living room window before yelling at me to come to the door, which they hadn't even knocked on. When I opened the door, they pushed their way in past me and then started questioning me about the noise I was accused by an anonymous person of making. So, based on an accusation of making too much noise, I get cops pushing their way into my home without permission or warrant. After this, they say they saw me "lunge" toward my nightstand when they yelled at me through the window, so they asked to see what I was lunging for. When I told them I was simply reaching for clothes to put on to answer the door, they accused me of possibly lunging for a weapon. When I told them I wasn't doing that, they said they were going to search my nightstand without permission or warrant "for their safety based on suspicion" (there's that word again). They found I had a pistol there, but didn't believe me when I told them I wasn't lunging for it.

Did they rummage through your entire house?

Did they take whatever they pleased?

 

[Aldebaran]

Yeah, it's called probable cause.

Which takes us back once again to what the 4th amendment says, but our "justice system" perverts. I highly doubt the founding fathers had in mind the idea of a cop simply having to utter the word "suspicion" in order to gain entry into a person's home and justify any behavior afterwards. That's why the warrant with specific conditions is mentioned as well.

 

[Loudmouth]

Which takes us back once again to what the 4th amendment says, but our "justice system" perverts. I highly doubt the founding fathers had in mind the idea of a cop simply having to utter the word "suspicion" in order to gain entry into a person's home and justify any behavior afterwards. That's why the warrant with specific conditions is mentioned as well.

But that isn't what happened, is it? It was your neighbors who phoned in a complaint.

 

[Aldebaran]

But that isn't what happened, is it? It was your neighbors who phoned in a complaint.

An anonymous noise complaint. Nothing that warrants forcing entry into a home.

 

[Loudmouth]

An anonymous noise complaint.

It wasn't as if the police just randomly picked a house and decided to make something up. Do you really think that they came into your house to steal stuff, or to entertain themselves?

Nothing that warrants forcing entry into a home.

The law says otherwise.

 

[Aldebaran]

It wasn't as if the police just randomly picked a house and decided to make something up. Do you really think that they came into your house to steal stuff, or to entertain themselves?

I'm not interested in the reason. Why do you think cops taser someone until they're dead? Why do you think they shoot someone and then slap each other high-fives afterwards? A person could spend forever trying to figure out someone else's reason for doing what they do.

The law says otherwise.

As if that meant everything. If a law says something that contradicts the constitution, then that's it? I guess as long as you're ok with it.

 

[bhsmte]

I'm not interested in the reason. Why do you think cops taser someone until they're dead? Why do you think they shoot someone and then slap each other high-fives afterwards? A person could spend forever trying to figure out someone else's reason for doing what they do.



As if that meant everything. If a law says something that contradicts the constitution, then that's it? I guess as long as you're ok with it.

Would you like the cops to ignore complaints and calls they get from citizens?

 

[Aldebaran]

Would you like the cops to ignore complaints and calls they get from citizens?

Ignoring and forcing your way into someone's home to conduct an unwarranted search without permission are two different things.

 

[Loudmouth]

I'm not interested in the reason. Why do you think cops taser someone until they're dead? Why do you think they shoot someone and then slap each other high-fives afterwards? A person could spend forever trying to figure out someone else's reason for doing what they do.

Trying to change the subject?

As if that meant everything. If a law says something that contradicts the constitution, then that's it? I guess as long as you're ok with it.

How did you determine that it violates the Constitution? Are you a judge on the Supreme Court?

 

[Loudmouth]

Ignoring and forcing your way into someone's home to conduct an unwarranted search without permission are two different things.

Probable cause.

 

[bhsmte]

Ignoring and forcing your way into someone's home to conduct an unwarranted search without permission are two different things.

They got a complaint and can lawfully investigate that complaint, as they did.

 

[Aldebaran]

Trying to change the subject?

I was addressing the same subject we were talking about. Trying to deflect from what I just asked you?

How did you determine that it violates the Constitution? Are you a judge on the Supreme Court?

Don't you have a mind to think for yourself? If not, then you'll just accept whatever a judge on the Supreme Court says (or president, or congressman, or any other politician for that matter).

 

[Aldebaran]

Probable cause.

Now you're just ignoring what I'm saying by repeating your talking point.

 

[Aldebaran]

They got a complaint and can lawfully investigate that complaint, as they did.

You don't question authority, do you?