The problem of evil

Neochristian said:

Death, not suffering. But even suffering has its place.

Ever read William James?


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Suffering certainly has its place: the creator, if he exists, has woven it into the very weft of life. Death is not a problem, although we may at the time of its arrival think it a confounded nuisance.

FireDragon76 said:

It seems to me the problem of evil is a real problem, and it is my main barrier to faith. I just have trouble believing in a benevolent creator that cares about people- I see no evidence for it in this world. There is gross unfairness and suffering in the world and I don't believe Christians can account for it.

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As a Christian, i have to agree with you here...
Why does God allow evil?
Is it explained satisfactory in Scripture?
No, i'm not satisfied by it.
Well, sometimes i am, but sometimes iḿ not, at all...
Because there's just too much of it, and people do really sick and wicked stuff to other people.
And then we have diseases too, to complete the living hell earth can be.
CAN be, because the misery is not distributed equally, at all...

I grant that I could be wrong, that somehow there is a God in charge of it all and its just like the Christian God and is beyond my understanding. But it would be pretty cruel for such a being to hold honest doubts against me, given the quality of evidence he's left.

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I disagree with you here.
The evidence is abundant.
You will however have to look for it, 'the world' has little platform for God's truths.

And honestly, if it is the case that God exists and he has such a mysterious plan, what does that say about Christian epistemology? How could we take any religious authority seriously if God's will is so inscrutable? It seems to me much more skepticism of religious claims are warranted, regardless of whether or not the Christian God exists.

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I can totally relate to what you're saying...

Some apologetic none the less:
God doesn't promise a pleasant journey, but He does promise the Ultimate Destination, AND Justice.
Somehow my faith in this is growing as my life as a Christian progresses.

FireDragon76 said:

It seems to me the problem of evil is a real problem, and it is my main barrier to faith. I just have trouble believing in a benevolent creator that cares about people- I see no evidence for it in this world. There is gross unfairness and suffering in the world and I don't believe Christians can account for it.

I grant that I could be wrong, that somehow there is a God in charge of it all and its just like the Christian God and is beyond my understanding. But it would be pretty cruel for such a being to hold honest doubts against me, given the quality of evidence he's left.

And honestly, if it is the case that God exists and he has such a mysterious plan, what does that say about Christian epistemology? How could we take any religious authority seriously if God's will is so inscrutable? It seems to me much more skepticism of religious claims are warranted, regardless of whether or not the Christian God exists.

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Human free will is a reality. And it's responsible for the worst of evils in the world, simply because those evils are avoidable, unnecessary, and out of accord with reason. So if God values our freedom, a good thing in itself, wanting us to choose rightly without forcing it, then how is that a bad thing in itself? And on top of that He came down here, completely identifying with us by living as we do, as a human being, and even suffering the worst of fates that moral evil (sin) could mete out. I like this teaching that quotes Augustine:
385 "God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? "I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution", said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For "the mystery of lawlessness" is clarified only in the light of the "mystery of our religion". The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror."

Neochristian said:

You're making a nanny out of the 'all-powerful deity with a plan.' .

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I'm not making anything out of it, I'm simply repeating what theists tell me about their deity.

fhansen said:

Human free will is a reality. And it's responsible for the worst of evils in the world

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Does your God have a plan? Is your God Omniscient and all-powerful?

Locutus said:

Does your God have a plan? Is your God Omniscient and all-powerful?

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Yes, He has a plan to perfect His creation over time-by letting sentient, rational beings play a part in their own perfection as they come to freely choose the good, the greatest good, over anything less.

FireDragon76 said:

Wait a minute... suffering is because of the weakness of our sinning?

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It can be.

I mean, that while we are giving in to weakness so we sin, this weakness also is keeping us available to deep suffering which we would not be going through if we were staying in the strength and safety of God's love. So, it is good to see how we can help to bring suffering on our own selves, so that we seek our Heavenly Father to correct (Hebrews 12:4-11) and heal (James 5:16) us of this.

But you are right to think that it is wrong for me to just look down on and criticize people whose own selfish stuff helps to keep their deep suffering going on and on; because Jesus cares about people who are suffering because of their sin problems and selfishness > Matthew 11:28-30 > and Jesus desires that we also have hope and compassion for ones in sin trouble >

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

To me, Fire Dragon, this scripture means that I can use my own sin's suffering to help me understand and feel for others who are in sin trouble.

As an illustration of how someone can help to cause oneself to suffer > let's say someone shoots and wounds me. Yes, the pain of being shot is the fault of the person who shoots me. But if I then choose not to treat my wound and this causes me to get an infection so I keep on suffering after I could have been healed, whose fault is this?

Also, we have 1 John 4:18 >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

This means how God's love with almighty power can easily cast out fear. But if someone is doing things in selfish love (Matthew 5:46), they do not have God's almighty power to protect them from fear. And I understand that there are personality torments which have their roots in fear and worry.

So, in the weakness of selfish loving, any of us can get infected with fear and then, also, keep on suffering in personality torments which are connected with fear. Selfish loving has me in weakness so I can be under the power of how evil is meant to effect me.

We can, instead, be in the power of God's peace to protect our minds and hearts from fear and worry and their various sorts of torment > Philippians 4:6-7.

So, God is the One who is able to keep us from getting infected with fear and worry and their personality torments.

Another example > if someone does something bad to you and you let yourself get infected with unforgiveness, you can keep on deeply suffering for as long as you keep on being unforgiving. What the person did was wrong, but you can decide if and how long the person has power over you to decide how you are and what you do.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

So, part of the problem of evil is how we humans can be selfish and the weakness of our selfish nature makes us weak so we suffer much more, about evil, than we would in Jesus Christ's grace >

You might consider what Paul shares in 2 Corinthians 12:7-15.

FireDragon76 said:

I think human free will is a cop-out. Human freedom is obviously not evenly distributed. Donald Trump has a lot more freedom than the average person living in a slum. If freedom is a measure of the goodness of the world, then God is unjust.

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I'm pretty sure financial freedom is not synonymous with free will.

There are people who are money-minded and so their efforts get them a lot of money . . . though not in all cases.

Meanwhile someone in a slum can be discovering how to love as family, even if he or she does not have much material stuff.

There are people who know how to set up a financially secure arrangement, but they can not get into and maintain a secure relationship.

And so, because people go after the material stuff, instead of discovering how to love, they suffer evil. The Bible says that loving money is at the root of all sorts of evil.

Fire Dragon . . . for years I have lived on purpose, outdoors, with outdoor homeless people. And I have walked with the clothes on my back from Boston to North Carolina, including a five day and five night stroll through the Bronx and Manhattan and the Queens and Brookline . . . mostly scavenging in order to have food and shelter materials.

During this journey, I discovered how finding out how to love was what I really needed. My privilege has been to discover how love can be. The main issue I discovered while visiting various churches and this country was not how ones would treat a homeless person, but how I needed to get a clue how to relate in love.

About "the nature of our existence" > in sin, yes, we have a nature oriented toward material things. And Jesus says that with Him we can have "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:29), by not letting material things have emotional power over us. Or else, when evil happens, then is when we can break down like things and people we are attached to . . . so that evil can get the better of us by effecting things and people who are our idols.

So, part of the problem of evil is how we let ourselves be under the power of what happens to people and things of our lives > Jesus says, "He who loves his life will lose it," in John 12:25.

So, do you feel the Bible and Jesus is "a place of profound ignorance"?

To me, the Bible is very clear, that if we get with God then we can be strong enough to handle troubles, but without getting broken and hurt and made to suffer about them. And while we are not suffering in ego, we can be more clear so we can with God be creative about how we handle troubles.

And this can work in a well-to-do situation . . . or a slum . . . or on foot with a jersey on my back during a night which ends with frozen drops of water on my blanket of leaves in the woods.

So, have you considered what Paul shares in 2 Corinthians 12:7-15? He suffered a lot of evil, but God did not just make his problems go away. And he became able to take "pleasure" in his troubles . . . but those which were "for Christ's sake". Meanwhile, things for our own egos' sake can get the better of us and bully us to suffer. But we see what happened with Joseph because he was faithful to God > Genesis 37-50. With God, Joseph took advantage of the evil done to him, and used his situation to help many other people . . . because of being creative in God's all-loving love > Genesis 50:19-21.

FireDragon76 said:

It seems to me the problem of evil is a real problem, and it is my main barrier to faith. I just have trouble believing in a benevolent creator that cares about people- I see no evidence for it in this world. There is gross unfairness and suffering in the world and I don't believe Christians can account for it.

I grant that I could be wrong, that somehow there is a God in charge of it all and its just like the Christian God and is beyond my understanding. But it would be pretty cruel for such a being to hold honest doubts against me, given the quality of evidence he's left.

And honestly, if it is the case that God exists and he has such a mysterious plan, what does that say about Christian epistemology? How could we take any religious authority seriously if God's will is so inscrutable? It seems to me much more skepticism of religious claims are warranted, regardless of whether or not the Christian God exists.

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Is your issue with gross unfairness or with God allowing any unfairness at all? How much unfairness is would be compatible with God's existence?

About fairness > I lost much because of how I did things in my own ego; but now with Jesus I have gotten so much more than I lost. And this is not fair > I do not deserve this!! But the good I enjoy now has not been mainly in materials or people's approval, but finding out how to love; and this takes much correction . . . still > Hebrews 12:4-11.

One minute of sharing with a really Christian person has done me more good than a billion universes of gold and silver and worldly people could.

So, much of the problem of evil is how we can miss out on love because of our fighting and getting hurt while we mainly seek material stuff and security and acceptance . . . and compare how much each of us has.

And if we have been robbed and betrayed of things of this life . . . after we die, God is able to do better with us than all in this world could do for us, not to mention the question of if this earth's worldly people are even capable of doing us much good. Ones who have more to lose can lose more and suffer more about all that they have . . . maybe, for one example, how southerners were slaves of their own fear of slaves holding uprisings.

So, physical and social equality might not be relevant to what is really right and fair. Even if you have financial equality, have you found out how to relate in love and continue a secure relationship? How much has education made people able to do this, by the way? Ones can be highly educated but not know how to control their drinking of booze or stay out of an argument with a spouse. Only with God can we have what it takes; so we are, really, being unfair to our own selves, if we are judging God to be not good enough for us . . . or neglecting to obey how He would have us doing things.

Soyeong said:

Is your issue with gross unfairness or with God allowing any unfairness at all? How much unfairness is would be compatible with God's existence?

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A god claimed to be perfect love and goodness? Or some other sort of god?

com7fy8 said:

And so, because people go after the material stuff, instead of discovering how to love, they suffer evil. The Bible says that loving money is at the root of all sorts of evil.

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Interesting. I wonder how all those believers who spastically consume feel about that. Maybe they didn't get the memo?

fhansen said:

Yes, He has a plan to perfect His creation over time-by letting sentient, rational beings play a part in their own perfection as they come to freely choose the good, the greatest good, over anything less.

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I didn't actually ask for your interpretation of the details of the plan. I simply wanted to know if your god planned everything, and if your god is Omni-everything.

Given you replied "yes", at the beginning of your response, we'll go with that. Could you advise if you are able to choose something which is not in the plan? Can you upset the plan?

Picky Picky said:

Suffering certainly has its place: the creator, if he exists, has woven it into the very weft of life. Death is not a problem, although we may at the time of its arrival think it a confounded nuisance.

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Death is one thing. Suffering is another. Evil yet another.

fhansen said:

Yes, He has a plan to perfect His creation over time-by letting sentient, rational beings play a part in their own perfection as they come to freely choose the good, the greatest good, over anything less.

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And yet, he has supposedly created heaven - a place where free will abounds, but evil is absent. This shows that evil is not a necessary result of free will. Why could he have not installed the same conditions 'on earth as in heaven'?