The Problem of Evil

[Deidre32]

Also, if God exists but is unknowable then he may as well not exist. If we can't know him and if his existence has no impact on our daily lives then it's the same as if he did not exist.

If God existed do you think he would be knowable?

Maybe. It can often be said that God reveals himself through people. If you are in a tough spot, and someone 'comes to your rescue,' maybe even someone who dislikes you...many attribute that as Divine Intervention.

I'm not denying that possibility, but a component of evolution is altruism. We see it in the animal kingdom. If animals have the ability to be altruistic, and don't have the ability to worship a deity, what can be said about the validity of 'needing' a god at all? If a gorilla can show altruism to other gorillas...gee, think we should be able to.

Science answers a lot more questions than religion, if we seek answers there.

I think that we will all know, one way or the other, when we die. That is when we will know without any doubts, imho. I think if someone wishes to worry over being worthy enough for heaven, or unworthy and banished to hell, he/she is missing out on the life that perhaps that very god gave to them.

SO many ways to look at it, yes? lol

 

[Chany]

Job asked for a reason but never got one. The answer he got boiled down to: "who are you to question God?" This answer sounds crass to modern sensibilities because we have such a high view of ourselves but I think it makes sense.

Only someone who already rejects belief in God could ask such a question because if God isn't real then he's just an idea invented by people. Such an imaginary deity could certainly be questioned because we created him. But if he created us then we have no right to question him. Our intelligence, wisdom, moral sensibility, and knowledge all come from him. How can we possibly think that we know something God doesn't know, are more wise than him, are morally better than him when he created us?

It's a cop-out answer.

The problem of evil is an argument against God. You can't assume the very thing in question in answering the argument.

You claim that God exists. I claim that the world has suffering in it, and the Christian God cannot coexist with this reality. Your response isn't an answer; it's an assertion that I have to be wrong. You assume that the deity's existence is an absolute truth, even when I'm arguing against its existence.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Is it possible that even an all powerful (and good) God would allow suffering for some reason?

Nope.

 

[brightlights]

Nope.

Show me the logical inconsistency.

 

[quatona]

Good question.

I live my life as if I do, while only recently acknowledging that I ultimately don't. That acknowledgement didn't change my moment to moment operation. It's simply a philosophical acknowledgement.

If you say "we live our lives as if we had free will", there must be some criteria for distinguishing leading a life with free will and a life without free will.
The fact that your life didn´t change when changing your philosophical view doesn´t help substantiating that you lead your life as if you had free will. It could also mean that you have always lead your life as if you didn´t have free will.

 

[quatona]

Yes, you are right. My post can be taken that way. It is difficult to explain.


For you, I will rephrase:

I recently, in the past year or two, found out that free will is just an illusion. However, I carry on with my life in the same manner that I did before I found out.

Thanks for your response.
As for me, I changed a couple of things.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Show me the logical inconsistency.

Because an all powerful god doesn't need suffering to exist, and an all good god would never allow for suffering to exist if it could avoid it. Therefore, an all powerful and all good god would never allow suffering to exist, much less create it. Since suffering does exist, no doubt about that, therefore, this means that an all powerful and all good deity cannot possibly exist.

 

[durangodawood]

Because an all powerful god doesn't need suffering to exist, and an all good god would never allow for suffering to exist if it could avoid it. Therefore, an all powerful and all good god would never allow suffering to exist, much less create it. Since suffering does exist, no doubt about that, therefore, this means that an all powerful and all good deity cannot possibly exist.

You are assuming the wisdom of God, that you know enough about the whole scheme to judge in these matters.

God may have reasons you cant even imagine.

 

[durangodawood]

Once you take it to the level that you're trying to take it to, anything goes, and there's no point in trying to reason.

Exactly so.

Reasoning about God is silly. On what basis can we possibly reason about God???

 

[PsychoSarah]

You are assuming the wisdom of God, that you know enough about the whole scheme to judge in these matters.

God may have reasons you cant even imagine.

God being all powerful means it could do as it wanted in any manner that it wished, and not be limited to needing to use evil to do so. An all good deity wouldn't wish to use evil as a means to an end. A being with both traits both doesn't want evil to exist and doesn't need evil to exist, therefore it is illogical to think that such a deity would create anything with evil in it. Since this world, by biblical standards anyways, does contain evil, then no deity that is both all powerful and all good could possibly exist.

An all powerful and all good being has every reason to prevent the development of evil entirely, and no motivation to create evil or tolerate it. I do not claim the knowledge of god; this logic is pretty simple.

 

[durangodawood]

God being all powerful means it could do as it wanted in any manner that it wished, and not be limited to needing to use evil to do so. An all good deity wouldn't wish to use evil as a means to an end. A being with both traits both doesn't want evil to exist and doesn't need evil to exist, therefore it is illogical to think that such a deity would create anything with evil in it. Since this world, by biblical standards anyways, does contain evil, then no deity that is both all powerful and all good could possibly exist.

An all powerful and all good being has every reason to prevent the development of evil entirely, and no motivation to create evil or tolerate it. I do not claim the knowledge of god; this logic is pretty simple.

You are not accounting for possibilities that you cant even imagine.

I see no basis to think we can reliably imagine things from the "Gods eye view". Its God, ultimately mysterious!

 

[PsychoSarah]

You are not accounting for possibilities that you cant even imagine.

I see no basis to think we can reliably imagine things from the "Gods eye view". Its God, ultimately mysterious!

God, ultimately, is a concept, and a concept becomes nonexistent when it becomes inconceivable by all. Stating that god is completely impossible to comprehend in every way undermines the power of the idea of god in and of itself; the only power that deities have regardless as to their existence. By making something completely unrealizable, you undermine any foundation of belief anyone has, because people can't have a relationship of any kind with something they can't even imagine, let alone understand.

I don't account for possibilities I can't even imagine, because if I can't imagine it at this point, it is functionally worthless to me, especially if no one can imagine and understand it.

 

[durangodawood]

God, ultimately, is a concept, and a concept becomes nonexistent when it becomes inconceivable by all. Stating that god is completely impossible to comprehend in every way undermines the power of the idea of god in and of itself; the only power that deities have regardless as to their existence. By making something completely unrealizable, you undermine any foundation of belief anyone has, because people can't have a relationship of any kind with something they can't even imagine, let alone understand.

I don't account for possibilities I can't even imagine, because if I can't imagine it at this point, it is functionally worthless to me, especially if no one can imagine and understand it.

With God there's enough of a concept that you can gain some intuitions about it. But still enough mystery that you cant pin it down.

I'm not a believer, but thats how the God idea seems to me. So I'm not put off one bit by apparent contradictions like the "problem of evil". The God concept admits paradox, at least from our pov.

 

[PsychoSarah]

With God there's enough of a concept that you can gain some intuitions about it. But still enough mystery that you cant pin it down.

I'm not a believer, but thats how the God idea seems to me. So I'm not put off one bit by apparent contradictions like the "problem of evil". The God concept admits paradox, at least from our pov.

God isn't immune to paradox. The only way I think that a benevolent and all powerful deity could make a universe such as this, is if its concept of good included murder and rape, etc. That deity would view those actions as good. Which sounds super messed up to me. I don't need perfection out of a deity, I need presence out of one.

 

[durangodawood]

God isn't immune to paradox.

You say that as if you KNOW.

Well how do you know?

As for me, I do not know. How could I possibly know what limits God? My knowledge is about things of this world. Does yours extend beyond that?

 

[RDKirk]

God isn't immune to paradox. The only way I think that a benevolent and all powerful deity could make a universe such as this, is if its concept of good included murder and rape, etc. That deity would view those actions as good. Which sounds super messed up to me. I don't need perfection out of a deity, I need presence out of one.

However, what we call the revelation from God clearly indicates these are temporary evils leading to an ultimate worthy good.

Even in our own judgments, we often see fit to impose temporary evils to achieve ultimate worthy goods, so that shouldn't be an impossible proposition for you to accept.

Even the ancient Greeks--including the Hedonists--figured that out totally apart from God as a basis of morality.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You say that as if you KNOW.

Well how do you know?

As for me, I do not know. How could I possibly know what limits God? My knowledge is about things of this world. Does yours extend beyond that?

I know that a light cannot be both on and off at the same time (no dimmer switch on this one) in our universe. To violate some things is to tear the universe apart.

I have logic, and by that logic, "mysterious supernatural incomprehensible entity" is not only a poor excuse for a god, but it is a god that, for all intents and purposes, might as well not exist for how much it can impact our lives.

 

[durangodawood]

Often, we can reason over claims about some "God" and motives for such claims.

The simple fact that God-lovers rejoice about how good God is when something favorable to them happens or is observed, and apply the ol' "How can we know God?" canard when something unfavorable to them happens or is observed, is a testimony that people want to feel good, and some people dive into extreme depths of irrationality in order to feel good.


One thing that would help your weak, dying argument would be if Christians started responding to events or observations that are favorable to them in this manner:

"My life was saved. I am not going to get too excited at this moment because I can't really reason about God. As a matter of fact, I can't reason about anything-- not even '1+1=2', because I reside in God's dominion."


Period.

Its not my job to answer for the peculiarities of the believing imagination.

I'm simply pointing out the absurdity of trying to do theology.

 

[PsychoSarah]

However, what we call the revelation from God clearly indicates these are temporary evils leading to an ultimate worthy good.

Even in our own judgments, we often see fit to impose temporary evils to achieve ultimate worthy goods, so that shouldn't be an impossible proposition for you to accept.

Which is true, but an all powerful deity can produce situations that don't require evil to have these benefits. All I am saying is that a deity that is both all powerful and all benevolent cannot exist; bit you can say it has one of those traits and push it pretty close with the other. Just not both absolutes.

 

[durangodawood]

Which is true, but an all powerful deity can produce situations that don't require evil to have these benefits. All I am saying is that a deity that is both all powerful and all benevolent cannot exist; bit you can say it has one of those traits and push it pretty close with the other. Just not both absolutes.

You want the God who can make an omelette without breaking eggs.

Is that too much to ask???