The Problem of Evil

[PsychoSarah]

Yes I am familiar with the logical problem of evil. But, again, that's been pretty well put to bed. Check out Plantinga's Free Will Defense.

I'm addressing your problem. If you claim that Christian faith is logically inconsistent that's one thing (and it's been demonstrated in the above to be a false claim.) But if you would like to affirm the existence of evil in any authoritative way and still deny God's existence then you yourself are being logically inconsistent.

Evil doesn't require a deity to exist, and certainly doesn't require and all powerful and benevolent deity to exist. I don't use this to argue that a god couldn't exist at all; only that should one exist, then it cannot possibly be both completely benevolent and completely powerful, and you also assume that evil must exist for humanity to exercise free will yet Adam and Eve existed supposedly with free will without the knowledge of good and evil, so that doesn't work.

Evil existing doesn't mean there is or isn't a deity, it just means that if there is a deity, it isn't both all powerful and completely benevolent. It could be all powerful and generally benevolent, or extremely powerful and 100% benevolent! but evil would not logically exist were the universe created by a being that was both all powerful and 100% benevolent.

 

[Chany]

Plug this one into the problem of evil and you'll find here, too, that the problem dissolves.

1. A good God must be committed to the survival and happiness of the human species.
2. A powerful God could bring about circumstances that make for survival and happiness for the human species
3. Our species suffers and is unhappy
4. Therefore a good and powerful God does not exist.

This is pretty anthro-centric. Why should the God of the universe be committed to the survival and happiness of one little species on planet earth?

Firstly, from a Christian view, man is specially created. He sent Jesus to die for the sins of humanity. This conception of God automatically assumes anthro-centric thinking.

Secondly, an omni-God would not face problems with perspectives. Things like size and scope would be meaningless to it, because it made all of it. It would feel the same for every planet it made.

Lastly, it is not merely that our species suffers, it is suffering of conscious creatures everywhere. The natural world is one of violence, competition, and turmoil. Human suffering, however, is the easiest to illustrate and it is the one that means the most to us on a personal level. There is no reason why any suffering should occur when a being can eliminate it.

 

[brightlights]

Evil doesn't require a deity to exist, and certainly doesn't require and all powerful and benevolent deity to exist. I don't use this to argue that a god couldn't exist at all; only that should one exist, then it cannot possibly be both completely benevolent and completely powerful, and you also assume that evil must exist for humanity to exercise free will yet Adam and Eve existed supposedly with free will without the knowledge of good and evil, so that doesn't work.

Evil existing doesn't mean there is or isn't a deity, it just means that if there is a deity, it isn't both all powerful and completely benevolent.

First of all you should check out the free will defense. It's not saying exactly what the title sounds like it's saying.

I understand your claim. I'm still waiting to hear a compelling explanation of "evil" that has any authority without reference to God.

 

[brightlights]

There is no reason why any suffering should occur when a being can eliminate it.

How do you know this? Is it just because you can't think of a reason?

 

[PsychoSarah]

First of all you should check of the free will defense. It's not saying exactly what the title sounds like it's saying.

I understand your claim. I'm still waiting to hear a compelling explanation of "evil" that has any authority without reference to God.

Ultimately, evil is just an idea in our minds. I could argue that evil doesn't exist beyond idea form. Just like the concept of perfection is an idea that has no actual reality yet impacts our perception of reality. I don't view evil as objective.

 

[brightlights]

Get rid of the word "evil". You need to get rid of "the problem of animal suffering within the dominion of an all-powerful, all-benevolent agent" in order to demonstrate that such a being could possibly exist.

I'm sorry I don't see the problem. Why does the existence of animal suffering cause a problem for the notion of a good and powerful God?

 

[brightlights]

Ultimately, evil is just an idea in our minds. I could argue that evil doesn't exist beyond idea form. Just like the concept of perfection is an idea that has no actual reality yet impacts our perception of reality. I don't view evil as objective.

Very well then. There is no problem of evil.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Very well then. There is no problem of evil.

Not to me, personally. In fact, I consider some forms of evil to be indirectly beneficial. War causes much suffering, however, if you look at it in a sort of pragmatic way, it limits the human population and helps prevent overcrowding. It also inspires and pressures people to develop technologies that are often later used to save people rather than kill them.

 

[brightlights]

Not to me, personally. In fact, I consider some forms of evil to be indirectly beneficial. War causes much suffering, however, if you look at it in a sort of pragmatic way, it limits the human population and helps prevent overcrowding. It also inspires and pressures people to develop technologies that are often later used to save people rather than kill them.

Interesting. Do you think it's possible that a good, powerful, and wise God would temporarily allow evil in order to produce some greater good?

 

[brightlights]

Well, let's put it this way:

The Problem of Evil is obvious enough that even the people who created Christian fairy tales had the desire to insert the promise of a Heaven that was free from suffering. If they could have blinded you from the suffering on this Earth, they would have. They knew they couldn't, so they fooled you with the promise of an eternal non-suffering environment. The one thing that they were hoping you don't notice is the pre-existing story of a rebellion of angels in Heaven. Taken to it's logical conclusion, eternal non-suffering isn't even a guarantee within the far-fetched myths of the ancient world.

Notions of eternal life don't really show up until the New Testament. For most of the Abrahamic religion there was no hope of living forever.

Try again?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Interesting. Do you think it's possible that a good, powerful, and wise God would temporarily allow evil in order to produce some greater good?

If it were not all powerful, I can see it as a reasonable compromise.

 

[Deidre32]

The main problem with evil, is it's only a problem if you believe in it. I don't believe that an 'outside force' known as 'Satan' is sifting through the world, tampering with our 'free will.'

Humans choose good actions or bad actions. Starts with a choice, which eminates from our consciences. There are people who have little to no conscience, they are known as sociopaths/narcissists/psychopaths.

But, I don't believe (although I once did as a Christian) that a driving force outside of ourselves is part and parcel responsible for the horrors that we see in the world. I think it is human nature to wish to blame something or someone else for our own poor choices.

Now, most Christians will agree that our choices are what dictate our actions, but many will believe that if someone murders another person, that somehow that is due to 'evil' and 'the fall of mankind,' and 'original sin.'

I personally don't believe in that 'take' on it.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[brightlights]

If it were not all powerful, I can see it as a reasonable compromise.

Is it possible that even an all powerful (and good) God would allow suffering for some reason?

 

[Chany]

How do you know this? Is it just because you can't think of a reason?

Name one.

There are clear and good reasons to eliminate suffering.

There are no reasons why suffering needs to exist in a world with a omnipotent god. Every one that is provided fails.

Moreover, a omni-god could easily provide the reason for allowing suffering.

 

[Deidre32]

Is it possible that even an all powerful (and good) God would allow suffering for some reason?

Yes.

To me however, despite now being an atheist, I'm open to the idea that a god may exist, but not the Abrahamic 'versions.' If a god exists, none of us know with any shred of certainty, what or who he/it could possibly be.

I dislike religion because it is merely man guessing at who a god is, or may be, and then trying to gain others to buy into that same guess.

If a god exists, I don't need religion to 'guide' me. (my opinion)

 

[brightlights]

Name one.

There are clear and good reasons to eliminate suffering.

There are no reasons why suffering needs to exist in a world with a omnipotent god. Every one that is provided fails.

Moreover, a omni-god could easily provide the reason for allowing suffering.

Job asked for a reason but never got one. The answer he got boiled down to: "who are you to question God?" This answer sounds crass to modern sensibilities because we have such a high view of ourselves but I think it makes sense.

Only someone who already rejects belief in God could ask such a question because if God isn't real then he's just an idea invented by people. Such an imaginary deity could certainly be questioned because we created him. But if he created us then we have no right to question him. Our intelligence, wisdom, moral sensibility, and knowledge all come from him. How can we possibly think that we know something God doesn't know, are more wise than him, are morally better than him when he created us?

 

[brightlights]

Yes.

To me however, despite now being an atheist, I'm open to the idea that a god may exist, but not the Abrahamic 'versions.' If a god exists, none of us know with any shred of certainty, what or who he/it could possibly be.

I dislike religion because it is merely man guessing at who a god is, or may be, and then trying to gain others to buy into that same guess.

If a god exists, I don't need religion to 'guide' me. (my opinion)

I totally agree. If we're going to know anything about God it would have to be because God revealed himself to us. All of our guess work and man-made religion is a joke.

Do you think that such a God would go to the trouble of revealing himself and showing who he is and what he's like?

 

[brightlights]

Also, if God exists but is unknowable then he may as well not exist. If we can't know him and if his existence has no impact on our daily lives then it's the same as if he did not exist.

If God existed do you think he would be knowable?

 

[Deidre32]

I totally agree. If we're going to know anything about God it would have to be because God revealed himself to us. All of our guess work and man-made religion is a joke.

Do you think that such a God would go to the trouble of revealing himself and showing who he is and what he's like?

I could talk for hours about this haha

When we look at all religions, they all seem to suggest that God HAS revealed himself to various ''prophets,'' or holy people throughout the ages. If we believe the Jesus story, which I once did believe it, the NT depicts that God made himself in the form of a man, to reveal himself.
In most religions, God has revealed himself as a form of 'love.' But, then we often question, well how could a loving God allow this or that to happen?

As a non believer now, what led me away from faith had little to do with questioning God's 'goodness.' It had more to do with, why should I follow a book that seems to me a compilation of fabricated tales from people who claim they've 'seen' God. Even if I stretch my imagination to accept that the Gospels were from authentic sacred texts, to me, those texts have been so tainted and broken down over the centuries, they are probably nothing what they might have been. Again, mankind guessing at who a god may or may not be. And why? Why must I follow the Bible in order to 'know' God?

My journey away from faith to now considering myself an atheist, wasn't an easy one...and was a long one. I think many Christians look at atheists and think we arrived at our conclusion strictly because we don't have evidence for a god's existence. But honestly, that's not so. Truthfully, none of us know with certainty who a god is. If someone wishes to believe that the answers lie in a book, that's up to him/her. But, God can't be confined nor contained in a book, my opinion. He is unexplainable. Perhaps,unknowable. IF he exists at all. I think honestly, that a god may very well not exist, because again, I think that mankind has been trying to figure out his role in life, and his purpose...for centuries, dating back to the Paleolithic time period! lol (yes, true, they had a form of pre religion back then, that dominated communities) Man has been searching for a long time for answers to the universe, and conjuring up religions to soothe his mind.

And perhaps, that is the greatest mystery of life. To never find him/it, but to just live our lives as best as we can. Believing in a deity and worrying abou heaven and hell, to me? Hasn't done the world a whole lot of good. It might make people feel at peace, or comforted. But, there are just as many altruistic atheists out there, as there are Christians. (and other religious groups)

The problem with religion is that it competes for 'first place.' That should tell us something. lol

 

[brightlights]

It's not because we have such a high view of ourselves.

An excellent reason for rejecting the "Who are you to question God?" canard is because any charlatan can ask this without any validity of their claims.


Charlatan: "God spoke to me in a dream last night. He has commanded that I have sex with your thirteen-year-old daughter."

Victim of charlatanry: "For some reason, that doesn't seem right."

Charlatan: "Who are you to question God?"

Victim of charlatanry: "Well, go ahead then. The Lord works in mysterious ways!"

That's not questioning God. That's questioning the legitimacy of the self-proclaimed prophet -- something that the Bible says that we should surely do. It's totally legitimate to question the authority and legitimacy of one who claims to represent God and speak on his behalf.