The Problem of Evil and Free Will

[Moral Orel]

Evil is a very important part of the free will equation.

Incorrect. God will never do evil, but He has free will, so evil has nothing to do with free will.

You may have created a fantasy world where evil doesn't exist but without the angels without Christ without humans to be able to choose God or evil there can't be a free choice of choosing God or evil.

You're already not listening to me. I never said to take away the choice, I said to make us perfect at making choices, like God. God can't choose evil, therefore God does not have free will. This is what your logic here has just stated.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Incorrect. God will never do evil, but He has free will, so evil has nothing to do with free will.

You're already not listening to me. I never said to take away the choice, I said to make us perfect at making choices, like God. God can't choose evil, therefore God does not have free will. This is what your logic here has just stated.

We including God have the ability to only choose whats possible for us. If its possible for us to choose evil then some will choose it. God can't do the impossible remember and therefore can't choose evil. It's not within his possible choices. If something is possible ie to choose evil then some will choose it. The only way a person wouldn't choose evil is if its not possible. Theres different scopes of free will. Some wider and narrower or just plain different than others. Is our free will greater than Gods because we can choose evil and he can't? Certainly not. Gods range of possible choices is way wider than ours even if it doesnt include evil.

 

[Moral Orel]

Is our free will greater than Gods because we can choose evil and he can't? Certainly not. Gods range of possible choices is way wider than ours even if it doesnt include evil.

So then you agree that being capable of doing evil isn't what gives us free will. It is merely some list of choices we can take that if we didn't have those choices we wouldn't lose our free will. What is the purpose for God wanting evil to exist if it isn't free will? We don't need to speak of free will again after this statement. It is completely irrelevant to the conversation. What is the purpose of evil?

 

[Moral Orel]

There is an infinite distance between God and creatures. God is the very source of all goodness, and thus it would be impossible for him to fall away from goodness. Creatures only participate in the goodness of God, and can fall away since they are not themselves the source of goodness.

No, people in Heaven can't fall away from goodness, so this is false.

You would have to define free will. In my second link above I address the problem from two different definitions of free will.

The definition of free will is arbitrary to the conversation. Define God's freewill for yourself however you like, and then make us like that as long as it includes God's free will and God's perfectly good nature.

Non sequitur

No, it is central to the conversation. Here's the statement in question again:

A being can exist that has free will but will never choose to do evil.

If this is not true, then God does not have free will because he will never choose to do evil.
If this is true, then humans can be made in such a way that they will never choose to do evil without their free will being affected.

You're going to have to explain how this logic does not follow.

 

[Moral Orel]

I will address your question if you would like:

Yes, free will can exist without sin/evil.

Man’s earthly objective is not to never/ever sin.

Evil and sin have a purpose, as you state: “It must if God allows it to exist”.

Evil and sin does not make God happy, but they are needed by man, to help willing humans fulfill their earthly objective.

There are things God cannot do, which are impossible to do like: “Make a being that has always existed (this would be like making “another” Christ).

The “ultimate goal” for mature adults id for them to fulfill their earthly objective and God’s goal would be to do everything He can to help those willing to accept His help fulfill their objective, with the “everything” including: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kind, death, hell, and sin.

Okay, what is our "earthly objective"? You say what it is not, but you don't say what it is. And how does evil and sin existing help us achieve this "earthly objective"?

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

So then you agree that being capable of doing evil isn't what gives us free will. It is merely some list of choices we can take that if we didn't have those choices we wouldn't lose our free will. What is the purpose for God wanting evil to exist if it isn't free will? We don't need to speak of free will again after this statement. It is completely irrelevant to the conversation. What is the purpose of evil?

Purpose is defined as why something exists. And evil exists because of sin. Why does sin exist? Because it is an available choice for free agents to take. Why doesn't God make us in a way where we don't choose evil. Because he can't. Does that mean God is not all powerful? No it just means he can only do what is possible to do. Why didn't God create the world like it will be in the next life? Free from sin and evil yet free will exists? Because we need to go through this life, this trial to determine if we freely want to be a part of the family of God.

 

[Moral Orel]

Why does sin exist? Because it is an available choice for free agents to take.

So then evil is an available choice for God to take, or God is not a free agent.

Why doesn't God make us in a way where we don't choose evil. Because he can't.

Yes He can, and you say so with your next statement:

Why didn't God create the world like it will be in the next life? Free from sin and evil yet free will exists? Because we need to go through this life, this trial to determine if we freely want to be a part of the family of God.

And we don't "need" to go through this life to determine if we freely want to be a part of the family of God because infants go to Heaven.

 

[Moral Orel]

When God creates free willed beings, it means he's created them to have the ability to listen and do what He says or not. The 'or not' part is when they choose not to do what God says to do and commit sin/evil.

Is God a free willed being even though you state that He cannot do evil? If He is, then this statement is incorrect. Being a free willed being does not "mean" they have the ability to do evil.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

So then evil is an available choice for God to take, or God is not a free agent.

Yes He can, and you say so with your next statement:

And we don't "need" to go through this life to determine if we freely want to be a part of the family of God because infants go to Heaven.

When I said free agent I didn't mean all free agents. I just meant those created by God. God doesn't have the choice available of evil because he can't sin. Due to his nature.

The fact that a possible world exists and will happen in the future where we have free will yet cease to sin does not mean that God could create that from the beginning. The reason is like I said because those free will agents who don't sin may not choose to serve God. But the act of disobeying and not serving god is a sin therefore it wasn't possible to create that world you want from the beginning. Once it has been established that you want to serve God and be a part of his family then the next life free from sin and retaining free will can happen.

We do need to go through this life to determine if we accept christ or not. Infant deaths are an anomaly. God wouldn't create a world where we are all infants and then a flood comes and wipes out all the infants and everyone gets eternal life. If infants receive eternal life it is only through the grace of God.

I also think you know enough to decide to choose Christ or reject him right now in your life if you had no time left to live. These issues you bring up are quite trivial to deciding to accept or reject christ.

 

[zippy2006]

No, people in Heaven can't fall away from goodness, so this is false.

Again your logic is sloppy. Just because people in heaven can't fall away doesn't mean that humans are good in the same way God is. This exact topic is explained in the 2nd and 3rd links from my first post.

The definition of free will is arbitrary to the conversation.

No it's not. Free will is central to your argument and yet you've failed to define it.

A being can exist that has free will but will never choose to do evil

.

If this is not true, then God does not have free will because he will never choose to do evil.
If this is true, then humans can be made in such a way that they will never choose to do evil without their free will being affected.

Again, non sequitur. Just because it is possible for a being with free will to never choose evil does not mean you can set up a factory and pump out such beings. Again, until you define free will this conversation isn't going anywhere.

 

[Chriliman]

Is God a free willed being even though you state that He cannot do evil? If He is, then this statement is incorrect. Being a free willed being does not "mean" they have the ability to do evil.

Notice I didn't say he can't do evil, I said he will not do evil. There's a difference between not being able to do something and being unwilling to do something. God's will is good, always has been.

 

[Chriliman]

No, people in Heaven can't fall away from goodness, so this is false.


The definition of free will is arbitrary to the conversation. Define God's freewill for yourself however you like, and then make us like that as long as it includes God's free will and God's perfectly good nature.

No, it is central to the conversation. Here's the statement in question again:

A being can exist that has free will but will never choose to do evil.

If this is not true, then God does not have free will because he will never choose to do evil.
If this is true, then humans can be made in such a way that they will never choose to do evil without their free will being affected.

You're going to have to explain how this logic does not follow.

Yes, humans can be made in such a way that they will never choose to do evil. However, the word 'made' means it's axiomatic that a process involving time/space must take place. We are in that process right now and we can choose between what is good(God) and what is not(evil), which is why we experience time/space in the way we do, it's by design, for a good end result that we can't fully see yet because the process isn't yet complete.

This is logical and possible and you are free to accept what's logical and possible or not.

 

[Moral Orel]

When I said free agent I didn't mean all free agents. I just meant those created by God. God doesn't have the choice available of evil because he can't sin. Due to his nature.

Then create us with the same nature. I really don't understand why this is such a difficult idea to accept.

The fact that a possible world exists and will happen in the future where we have free will yet cease to sin does not mean that God could create that from the beginning.

Yes, actually, it does. God can do anything possible. A world without sin that is filled with free agents is possible.

The reason is like I said because those free will agents who don't sin may not choose to serve God. But the act of disobeying and not serving god is a sin therefore it wasn't possible to create that world you want from the beginning.

Exactly. Not serving God is a sin too. God can't deny Himself either, so just add that to the things that humans will perfectly choose to do.

We do need to go through this life to determine if we accept christ or not. Infant deaths are an anomaly. God wouldn't create a world where we are all infants and then a flood comes and wipes out all the infants and everyone gets eternal life. If infants receive eternal life it is only through the grace of God.

An anomaly means it's possible. If it's possible, God can do it. Therefore it isn't necessary to live on Earth.

I also think you know enough to decide to choose Christ or reject him right now in your life if you had no time left to live. These issues you bring up are quite trivial to deciding to accept or reject christ.

What I see is a lot of evil with no purpose whatsoever. If God exists, and allows all this evil for no reason, then He isn't omnibenevolent. In fact, a God who is capable of preventing evil, and chooses not to, for no good reason, is evil. Free will is not that reason.

 

[Moral Orel]

Notice I didn't say he can't do evil, I said he will not do evil. There's a difference between not being able to do something and being unwilling to do something. God's will is good, always has been.

You also said that He isn't necessarily omnipotent because of what He will or won't do. Omnipotence is about capabilities. So if He can do evil, but will never choose to, then His omnipotence is unaffected. Is this what you meant?

Yes, humans can be made in such a way that they will never choose to do evil. However, the word 'made' means it's axiomatic that a process involving time/space must take place. We are in that process right now and we can choose between what is good(God) and what is not(evil), which is why we experience time/space in the way we do, it's by design, for a good end result that we can't fully see yet because the process isn't yet complete.

This is logical and possible and you are free to accept what's logical and possible or not.

I never said it was illogical or impossible. I pointed out infants that passed away to show that humans don't need to go through as much of the process as people claim before they get that perfect nature. And if life begins at conception, then saying the Earth is necessary for the whole process becomes exceedingly arbitrary.

What is illogical and impossible is for a being to be both omnipotent and omnibenevolent and allow evil and suffering for no reason. Free will isn't that reason, so what is?

 

[Moral Orel]

Again your logic is sloppy. Just because people in heaven can't fall away doesn't mean that humans are good in the same way God is. This exact topic is explained in the 2nd and 3rd links from my first post.

I never said that they were good in the same way God is. You said that all creatures can fall away, I pointed out some that can't. That's it. No need reading more into it than where I pointed out your mistake.

I will say, though, that if God is omnipotent, then He can make people good in the same way God is. That isn't the way it is, obviously, but it is possible, and that's the point. Now I understand God can't do logically impossible things, like square circles. But if something exists, then God can make another one. That is not a logical contradiction.

No it's not. Free will is central to your argument and yet you've failed to define it.

It's arbitrary because it's defined different ways by different Christians. I don't care which definition you use, which will be different from Chrillman, which will be different from IAmAllLikeOkWhatWait, which will be different from bling, etc. Go ahead and define it in the way that you think best suits your argument.

Again, non sequitur. Just because it is possible for a being with free will to never choose evil does not mean you can set up a factory and pump out such beings. Again, until you define free will this conversation isn't going anywhere.

God can set up such a factory. Sure, I can't, but God can. God designed all of reality itself. And since we know that God can make people become capable of never ever sinning, without them ever making a choice to follow Him before they die, we know He could erect such a factory.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Then create us with the same nature. I really don't understand why this is such a difficult idea to accept.

Yes, actually, it does. God can do anything possible. A world without sin that is filled with free agents is possible.

Exactly. Not serving God is a sin too. God can't deny Himself either, so just add that to the things that humans will perfectly choose to do.

An anomaly means it's possible. If it's possible, God can do it. Therefore it isn't necessary to live on Earth.

What I see is a lot of evil with no purpose whatsoever. If God exists, and allows all this evil for no reason, then He isn't omnibenevolent. In fact, a God who is capable of preventing evil, and chooses not to, for no good reason, is evil. Free will is not that reason.

Clones of God are pointless. I don't see how you can't see this. That is what you are asking. God to clone himself. And make millions of them. There would be no point to this because they would all be the same and God would have wasted his time. You might say make these God clones with different personalities but then you don't realize that if they had a different personality they wouldn't be God or have his nature. We are made in the image of God but a mere reflection of the true God but we don't have all the attributes of God. Which you seem to wish we did so we wouldn't suffer. I'm surprised your denial of God has gotten to this point where you refute any and all things of God just to not concede to the truth.

Let me address your last point. I've already stated why there is evil because of sin. Let me ask you a few questions. Is this world all evil? Is this world worth making despite the evil because of the few good hearted people? Should God have created this world despite the risk that people would disobey him and evil would exist? Even if it meant he would have the family he so desired? How many good people who are saved is it worth for all those bad people who cause evil and destruction? God knew there were risks involved in creating this world, but he took the chance because a family who loves you is worth it in the end. Despite any suffering I or you have gone through to get there. That's true love right there. God is doing everything he possibly can to stop evil so I don't think you can say he just allows it and sits back and laughs or something of the sort. But he is actively doing everything in his power without overstepping other peoples freedom to stop evil.

 

[Moral Orel]

Clones of God are pointless. I don't see how you can't see this. That is what you are asking. God to clone himself. And make millions of them. There would be no point to this because they would all be the same and God would have wasted his time. You might say make these God clones with different personalities but then you don't realize that if they had a different personality they wouldn't be God or have his nature. We are made in the image of God but a mere reflection of the true God but we don't have all the attributes of God. Which you seem to wish we did so we wouldn't suffer.

What you're describing here is Heaven, and you make it sound as though you wouldn't like it very much. A place full of people who aren't quite God, but are like God enough to never harm one another and will only do good... That's a bad thing now? That's pointless?

Let me address your last point. I've already stated why there is evil because of sin. Let me ask you a few questions. Is this world all evil? Is this world worth making despite the evil because of the few good hearted people? Should God have created this world despite the risk that people would disobey him and evil would exist? Even if it meant he would have the family he so desired? How many good people who are saved is it worth for all those bad people who cause evil and destruction? God knew there were risks involved in creating this world, but he took the chance because a family who loves you is worth it in the end. Despite any suffering I or you have gone through to get there. That's true love right there. God is doing everything he possibly can to stop evil so I don't think you can say he just allows it and sits back and laughs or something of the sort. But he is actively doing everything in his power without overstepping other peoples freedom to stop evil.

People's freedom to stop evil? Evil exists so that people can stop it? Why not just never make it?

A family who loves you is possible without the evil existing. That's the point. God wasn't forced into a decision between people with evil and no people at all. You can have people without evil and they don't have to be robots.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

What you're describing here is Heaven, and you make it sound as though you wouldn't like it very much. A place full of people who aren't quite God, but are like God enough to never harm one another and will only do good... That's a bad thing now? That's pointless?


People's freedom to stop evil? Evil exists so that people can stop it? Why not just never make it?

A family who loves you is possible without the evil existing. That's the point. God wasn't forced into a decision between people with evil and no people at all. You can have people without evil and they don't have to be robots.

I perhaps should've added a comma after other peoples freedom. But what I meant to say was God is actively doing all he can in his power to stop evil without stepping over peoples freedom. You have to realize although God is the supreme power, other people like satan, other angels, have power as well. If these go against God then God needs another free agent with enough power to stop it. Either the free agent has the power by default or given by God. But there are many instances where such a free agent doesn't exist. And evil persists.

Yes you can have people without evil and them not being robots but would they genuinely love God back if made so high? Satan was made the highest ever creation from the start and he turned on God. You seem to have quite demanding and unrealistic demands of God to create you equal to him from the start and since he didn't, you reject him because he is supposedly evil for not doing so?
20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this? 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

God is supposedly evil for doing all he can to stop evil? evil was never a part of his plan. Did God create this world with tsunamis and earth quake and sin? No. We messed everything up. God is doing all he can to restore this world and he will after judgment.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

What you're describing here is Heaven, and you make it sound as though you wouldn't like it very much. A place full of people who aren't quite God, but are like God enough to never harm one another and will only do good... That's a bad thing now? That's pointless?

It is pointless because none of these people have any type of relationship with God. God is interested in personal relationships with us. He wants kind hearted loving people in his family. Not those with hardened hearts. What you say is, God just forget the relationship, make me like you, give me eternal life, give me perfect wisdom and maturity. That is very selfish and not going to happen. And shouldn't happen. Even if God made you like him it does not mean you would have a pure heart. Thats the x factor. God is not going to cross the line and your personal freedom to have a loving heart and love him or not. You choose your heart not God. Regardless of circumstance if you want to be bitter hateful nonloving jealous and so forth of God then why would such a person deserve eternal life? How could such a person be in the family of God.

You keep adding more and more and more to human creation to the point where their number of free choices is shrinking by the minute to the point where I must ask do you think its possible to create God clones who have the forced nature to be all loving? Such a thought is a disgrace to God to even make such people because that love is not real. Its created. Where as God being the creator he naturally is this way. But to create someone who loves everyone by default is disgraceful to even think of such a thing. Be careful what you are asking for because if you got what you are so stubbornly asking for, you would be living in a superficial world that wouldn't be worth living in. The joy wouldn't be real. I am glad God created us the way he did. Because I know that I will get a reward for my trouble and all the trouble was worth it. What is better, a child born with a billion dollars or a child who earns a billion dollars? Earn your place in the kingdom. Don't fret around saying God make me like you and hope I love you back. Don't say God give me eternal life and hope I love you. God doesn't take such risks. Hes taken enough of a risk and given you enough of a chance to prove you love him now in this life and if you do you will reap the benefits and if you don't then you deal with the consequences.

 

[RDKirk]

If you're at all familiar with the bible, God set a plan into motion after Adam and Eve sinned to redeem what they lost for us.

Actually, God set that plan into motion before Adam and Eve sinned...even before He created the universe (Ephesians 1, Ephesians 4, Revelation 13).

God's plan of salvation for man was not a reaction to the Fall, it was in anticipation of the Fall.

But then, if God anticipated the Fall, why did He create the one who would become Satan in the first place? Or more pointedly, why did God plant that Tree? Why did God then speak that command?

I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. --Romans 7

Paul tells us that without a command, there can be no sin. Moreover, he is saying that the command itself actually makes sin inevitable. If God had never said, "Do not eat of the tree," there would not have been a sin to commit.

This passage also, though, says that the sin--which I call "the condition of God's will undone"--could not be manifest until God actually stated His will, existing only in potential.