The Problem of a Missing Motive

[Tree of Life]

I can understand why you think the other things will happen...but why would you be working? Is there a need for money? Will someone need to scrub the toilets in paradise?

The Bible uniformly lauds the intrinsic value of work. According to Christian theology, work is not just something that we have to do to survive or make money. Work is a basic human need just like food and water. Satisfying work is part of the joy of life.

 

[quatona]

The Bible uniformly lauds the intrinsic value of work. According to Christian theology, work is not just something that we have to do to survive or make money. Work is a basic human need just like food and water. Satisfying work is part of the joy of life.

So there will only be satisfying work in heaven? I am asking because the physical world comes with a lot of necessary but uninspiring, unsatisfactory work. (See Ana´s example of scrubbing toilets).

 

[Tree of Life]

Ok. Tell me more about it. Will we digest, will we have pain, will we be vulnerable, will we suffer, can we be killed, will we age, will there be gravity and all the natural laws...or what does "physical" mean in this statement?

While I don't think that the answer here is beyond our theoretical comprehension, I do think that it is beyond our experience. According to the Bible we were always meant for a physical world but the current state of things is under God's curse. So pain, vulnerability, suffering, death, and aging are all "intruders" into the physical world (or at least the physical world as it was meant to be experienced by humans). The age to come will be altogether physical with dirt, gravity, eating, digestion (I assume?) but it will lack everything that's associated with the curse - pain, death, sickness, etc. This might be a world hard to imagine because it's a world we've never properly experienced. But I do think that we catch glimpses of it every now and then in this age. Moments of joy, for instance, give us some dim glimpse of what life was always meant to be like.

I could pontificate a bit beyond this, but I'm not sure I could give a very mechanical explanation of how all of that is going to work. If someone can explain how the physical resurrection of Christ worked then I suppose they could explain this as well. The two are closely connected.

It´s interesting, though, that he uses a word that can also mean "world", for this.

It is. But a study of John's use of κόσμος (as I have done) will reveal that his primary meaning is "unbelieving people" rather than cosmos in the sense that we typically think of it.

 

[Tree of Life]

So there will only be satisfying work in heaven? I am asking because the physical world comes with a lot of necessary but uninspiring, unsatisfactory work. (See Ana´s example of scrubbing toilets).

Frustration associated with work is part of the curse (Genesis 3:17-19). Work was meant to be something we enjoy. Even menial work like scrubbing toilets. In the age to come the frustration will be removed and work will be fruitful and altogether enjoyable.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, words like "supernatural", "spiritual" are almost always used as antagonists to "physical, natural, material" - by Christians. Many of their points depend on them being antagonists.
Now, I have to wonder why Christian work from this idea all over CF, yet nobody shows up to correct it until a non-believer refers to it.

It's almost as if the idea of "supernatural" and "non-physical" being inexorably connected is perfectly reasonable until someone (an atheist) comes along and explains a problem with it and it's relation to the message of the theology.

Once that happens...then you're told it's all wrong.

I remember making a thread explaining the logic behind how going to hell isn't a choice...it's a decision made by god. One of the necessary criteria for my argument is that we are all sinners....and that no one is free from sin.

The only posters to respond were the ones who told me it was possible to live a life without sin and there were examples of this in the lives of saints.

Imagine my surprise.

 

[Murby]

To freely express himself.

Why do people keep referring to God as "he".... ???
If God is a "he" or a "him" that means God is male and I have a lot more questions to ask...

 

[quatona]

While I don't think that the answer here is beyond our theoretical comprehension, I do think that it is beyond our experience.

Ok, but I am asking whether "physical" means roughly the same as it means here, or whether you rather just use it to solve a contradiction even though you actually mean something like "supernatural".

According to the Bible we were always meant for a physical world but the current state of things is under God's curse. So pain, vulnerability, suffering, death, and aging are all "intruders" into the physical world (or at least the physical world as it was meant to be experienced by humans). The age to come will be altogether physical with dirt, gravity, eating, digestion (I assume?) but it will lack everything that's associated with the curse - pain, death, sickness, etc.

Yeah, but we keep being told that all those positive things/feelings/aspects necessarily come with their opposite in a physical world - and that actually makes quite some sense to me.
E.g., if we have got a sensitive skin and nervous system that perceives a hug as positive, it appears to be inescapable that it perceives a club over the head as negative.

This might be a world hard to imagine because it's a world we've never properly experienced.

So it´s not like the physical world? So it´s a natural world without the laws of nature?
At this point I´d also remind you that I kindly asked not to give non-explanatory explanations to the effect of "It´s beyond our understanding". I asked for an explanation on human terms - because I am a human.

But I do think that we catch glimpses of it every now and then in this age. Moments of joy, for instance, give us some dim glimpse of what life was always meant to be like.

So when in heaven we step on a Lego with bare feet, this will be an enjoyable sensation? When we touch a hot stove, we will have an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] instead of pain or something? When we cut ouselves with a knife we won´t bleed (or bleed milk and honey)?
You said we will eat. Will we have hunger?

 

[Ana the Ist]

The Bible uniformly lauds the intrinsic value of work. According to Christian theology, work is not just something that we have to do to survive or make money. Work is a basic human need just like food and water. Satisfying work is part of the joy of life.

Personally I can't wait to retire and not have to work anymore...but I'm aware that they didn't consult me first before writing the bible.

I wonder if the guys who have to scrub toilets for a living would agree with the bible in this matter.

 

[quatona]

It's almost as if the idea of "supernatural" and "non-physical" being inexorably connected is perfectly reasonable until someone (an atheist) comes along and explains a problem with it and it's relation to the message of the theology.

Once that happens...then you're told it's all wrong.

I remember making a thread explaining the logic behind how going to hell isn't a choice...it's a decision made by god. One of the necessary criteria for my argument is that we are all sinners....and that no one is free from sin.

The only posters to respond were the ones who told me it was possible to live a life without sin and there were examples of this in the lives of saints.

Imagine my surprise.

Yeah, just imagine I had opened a thread about the physical afterlife in Christian theology, instead of this one...
Or, on another note, think of the uproar when someone hints that Christians disagree on fundamental questions.

 

[quatona]

Frustration associated with work is part of the curse (Genesis 3:17-19). Work was meant to be something we enjoy. Even menial work like scrubbing toilets. In the age to come the frustration will be removed and work will be fruitful and altogether enjoyable.

Will our dumps smell like roses?

 

[expos4ever]

Yes, words like "supernatural", "spiritual" are almost always used as antagonists to "physical, natural, material" - by Christians. Many of their points depend on them being antagonists.
Now, I have to wonder why Christian work from this idea all over CF, yet nobody shows up to correct it until a non-believer refers to it.

I think the word by "antagonist" you may have meant "antonyms". Is that right?

 

[juvenissun]

The question in short:
Why would a non-material/non-physical (entirely "spiritual") being create a material/physical world when the actual goal (that which it is all about) is again a "spiritual" state of affairs?

Or IOW: why create a world exclusively for beings to prove that they are "not of this world"?

* Christian God, is only partially (1/3) spiritual.
* The world He created is MORE THAN the material world we know.
* Christians ARE of this world (more than any other religions). It is a very important doctrine of Christianity.
* The actual goal is BOTH spiritual and physical.

If these modifications hold, then they will totally change your question.
So, you may want to explore EACH ONE OF THEM first.

 

[quatona]

* Christian God, is only partially (1/3) spiritual.
* The world He created is MORE THAN the material world we know.
* Christians ARE of this world (more than any other religions). It is a very important doctrine of Christianity.
* The actual goal is BOTH spiritual and physical.

If these modifications hold, then they will totally change your question.
So, you may want to explore EACH ONE OF THEM first.

I take the Christian God concepts as they come. But I hope you can understand that I can´t address all of them with the same questions/arguments, even though they are contradicting each other.
So, if time permits, I will make a thread customized to your God concept, eventually. But I can´t promise.

 

[juvenissun]

In which way are the physical aspects of afterlife similar to this life, and in which way are they different?

Many. For one: A Christian in the Heaven has a residential space and goes in and out many physical boundary. For two: he does not get sick.

 

[quatona]

I think the word by "antagonist" you may have meant "antonyms". Is that right?

Yes. Thanks for your help!

 

[juvenissun]

I take the Christian God concepts as they come. But I hope you can understand that I can´t address all of them with the same questions/arguments, even though they are contradicting each other.
So, if time permits, I will make a thread customized to your God concept, eventually. But I can´t promise.

You can not pick up ONE aspect among many and start to question that ONE. Because they are all related. God is spiritual. But God is also physical. Christians goal is spiritual, but is ALSO physical.

 

[quatona]

You can not pick up ONE aspect among many and start to question that ONE. Because they are all related.

I agree. I didn´t start with one aspect and questioned it.

God is spiritual. But God is also physical. Christians goal is spiritual, but is ALSO physical.

I can only repeat: You need to have a little patience until your particular God concept and theology gets its own thread.
This thread addresses the widely spread Christian God concept and theology that the afterlife is purely spiritual. If you don´t hold this God concept and theology, you can relax and lean back: I don´t expect you to be able to help me make sense of it.

 

[jayem]

To freely express himself.

But why would an entity that is already the alpha and omega, omnipresent, and infinitely perfect beyond imagining, express itself in any way other than just existing?

 

[ScottA]

First off two things:
1. This isn´t meant to prove the Christian God non-existent (albeit imo, it is related to e.g. the Problem of Evil). It´s just about something at the core of Christian theology that doesn´t make any sense at all, to me.
2. Obviously, I am looking for an explanation that makes sense on human terms. Thus, if your explanation or line of reasoning will eventually come down to or contains at some point "God´s ways are mysterious" or "It´s beyond human understanding" or some other non-explanatory element, I would kindly ask you to abstain from participating.

The question in short:
Why would a non-material/non-physical (entirely "spiritual") being create a material/physical world when the actual goal (that which it is all about) is again a "spiritual" state of affairs?

More in detail:

"Spiritual" realms and physical/natural/material realms are quite apparently very different in nature, the problems (assuming for a moment there are problems in the "spiritual realm" at all) are of very different nature and manifestations, and problem-solving requires totally different means and competences in those different realms.

Just to name the first two things that come to mind as appearing exclusive to the physical realm (and which seem to be the basis for most "evil", "suffering", "trouble", "struggles", "sins" (or whatever you want to call it - I hope you get the idea) :
- Limited resources
- Zero sum games.

The most frequent explanations I have heard for creating this physical realm:
It´s some kind of test run for the "spiritual" afterlife, a method to separate those who are fit for this afterlife from those who aren´t.
Now, what´s the point in creating realmB as a test for our fitness for realmA when those problems that we have to deal with/overcome in realmB don´t even exist in realmA?

Or IOW: why create a world exclusively for beings to prove that they are "not of this world"?

The world...the history of the world...is His story.

A better question, which may help in understanding...is: "Why would a timeless God created a world of time?"

The answer is the same for both questions: To tell what happened in detail to a captive audience.

But...creation - this world - is a creation...a play, a production. Before the movie, you're like.."What's going to happen?" After the movie, you're like, "Wow, that was so cool!"

 

[quatona]

The world...the history of the world...is His story.

A better question, which may held in understanding...is: "Why would a timeless God created a world of time?"

The answer is the same for both questions: To tell what happened in detail to a captive audience.

But...creation - this world - is a creation...a play, a production. Before the movie, you're like.."What's going to happen?" After, it's like, "Wow, cool!"

Uhmm, ok. You make it sound like we are the watchers of this unreal movie. Christian theology, however, makes it sound like we are real actors in this unreal movie.