The Problem of a Missing Motive

[juvenissun]

No, it´s my question. You paraphrased it quite nicely - except for the second sentence which wasn´t part of my question.

Feel free to give your answer.

I need to get the question right first. Please correct it before I can answer.

God is spiritual.
God creates a physical world for human to live and to believe in Him.
But the afterlife of human is pure spiritual.
Question: Why would God want to create the physical world?

 

[quatona]

I need to get the question right first. Please correct it before I can answer.

God is spiritual.
God creates a physical world for human to live and to believe in Him.
But the afterlife of human is pure spiritual.
Question: Why would God want to create the physical world?

Now that I see the responses in the other thread, I can modify my question without using words like "spiritual", "natural", supernatural", "material" etc., since all answers have in common that in Heaven - no matter what they call it - conditions are totally unlike the conditions we are having here.

So what could possibly be the point in creating an intermediate state that has essentially different conditions than this great, perfect final state?

 

[juvenissun]

Now that I see the responses in the other thread, I can modify my question without using words like "spiritual", "natural", supernatural", "material" etc., since all answers have in common that in Heaven - no matter what they call it - conditions are totally unlike the conditions we are having here.

So what could possibly be the point in creating an intermediate state that has essentially different conditions than this great, perfect final state?

In fact, this is a good question. But the understanding you get is not correct.
Just like I said in my earlier reply, Christians still walk, talk, live in houses in the Heaven. Christians still work and still have the same identity as we have that NOW.

Yes, the Heaven is a different and a perfect world. But many things we experienced, and learned NOW will continue in the Heaven. This is critically important. I will still be me, even many things in the new environment could be changed.

Think it this way. School training is very different from the nature of real job. A student could get a D grade in school, but can do an excellent job in real work. Course work in general school does not teach a student how to handle any of his future job (that is why the "job training" is still a program in every company). If so, why do we need schools? Why not let people directly go to the job and learn the practical skill right there? Would that save A LOT of money and time?

The earth, IS the school for Christians. The real job for Christians is in the Heaven.

 

[quatona]

In fact, this is a good question. But the understanding you get is not correct.
Just like I said in my earlier reply, Christians still walk, talk, live in houses in the Heaven. Christians still work and still have the same identity as we have that NOW.

Yes, the Heaven is a different and a perfect world. But many things we experienced, and learned NOW will continue in the Heaven. This is critically important. I will still be me, even many things in the new environment could be changed.

I fail to see how you concluded that my understanding is not correct.
Ok, you are still you (the sinner, the fallible, corruptible, imperfect being), but the new environment has totally different conditions.
I didn´t contradict or question any of these statements.

Think it this way. School training is very different from the nature of real job.

School training is supposed to prepare us for adult life (and both the preparation state and the state it is meant to prepare us for have the same physical conditions). This isn´t necessarily or exclusively the job - it is the life in these very conditions.
When school invents totally different conditions than those in the real life it is meant to prepare us for, I will ask the same question: What´s the point in that?

 

[juvenissun]

I fail to see how you concluded that my understanding is not correct.
Ok, you are still you (the sinner, the fallible, corruptible, imperfect being), but the new environment has totally different conditions.
I didn´t contradict or question any of these statements.

School training is supposed to prepare us for adult life (and both the preparation state and the state it is meant to prepare us for have the same physical conditions). This isn´t necessarily or exclusively the job - it is the life in these very conditions.
When school invents totally different conditions than those in the real life it is meant to prepare us for, I will ask the same question: What´s the point in that?

The school training vs the real job analogy fully illustrates the point. You deleted my last line of the last post in your reply. What's said in that line is the summary and is the point. Your understanding on the function of a school is correct. So you may also understand the function/purpose of the earthly life to a Christian in the Heaven.

When a Christian goes to the Heaven, everything which can be carried by the person is still there, except his sin. That is what the Gospel is all about.

 

[quatona]

The school training vs the real job analogy fully illustrates the point. You deleted my last line of the last post in your reply. What's said in that line is the summary and is the point.

I gave you the reasons why I think the school analogy isn´t analogous in the most crucial point.

Your understanding on the function of a school is correct. So you may also understand the function/purpose of the earthly life to a Christian in the Heaven.

No, I don´t understand why - for educational purposes - a place created with problems that we´ll never face in the "real thing". We don´t do that in school, and that´s not what school has been created for.

When a Christian goes to the Heaven, everything which can be carried by the person is still there, except his sin. That is what the Gospel is all about.

Tbh, I find it quite frustrating when you make a huge, general claim - and upon it being addressed, you tell me how it´s actually not correct. That makes it hard to understand you.

But, ok, then: not only Heaven comes with conditions completely different than here, but also ourselves will be totally different. That makes the need for this existence as am intermediate place of preparation even more implausible.

 

[Colter]

First off two things:
1. This isn´t meant to prove the Christian God non-existent (albeit imo, it is related to e.g. the Problem of Evil). It´s just about something at the core of Christian theology that doesn´t make any sense at all, to me.
2. Obviously, I am looking for an explanation that makes sense on human terms. Thus, if your explanation or line of reasoning will eventually come down to or contains at some point "God´s ways are mysterious" or "It´s beyond human understanding" or some other non-explanatory element, I would kindly ask you to abstain from participating.

The question in short:
Why would a non-material/non-physical (entirely "spiritual") being create a material/physical world when the actual goal (that which it is all about) is again a "spiritual" state of affairs?

More in detail:

"Spiritual" realms and physical/natural/material realms are quite apparently very different in nature, the problems (assuming for a moment there are problems in the "spiritual realm" at all) are of very different nature and manifestations, and problem-solving requires totally different means and competences in those different realms.

Just to name the first two things that come to mind as appearing exclusive to the physical realm (and which seem to be the basis for most "evil", "suffering", "trouble", "struggles", "sins" (or whatever you want to call it - I hope you get the idea) :
- Limited resources
- Zero sum games.

The most frequent explanations I have heard for creating this physical realm:
It´s some kind of test run for the "spiritual" afterlife, a method to separate those who are fit for this afterlife from those who aren´t.
Now, what´s the point in creating realmB as a test for our fitness for realmA when those problems that we have to deal with/overcome in realmB don´t even exist in realmA?

Or IOW: why create a world exclusively for beings to prove that they are "not of this world"?

The motive as I understand it for evolutionary man is experience. There are many more and varied kinds of worlds and life that we will experience as we progress inward to a meeting with the Universal Father. After ataining "finalitor" status, we return to the inhabited universe for service in some unrevealed destiny.

As an aside, Lucifer, a high eventuated administrator who lived by faith in the Father and his plan as represented by the visible Creator Son, lost faith in the Father and the wisdom of the ascendent plan. He rebelled against the need for such a plan launching his orgy of darkness and death. He was convincing, many went with him and remain loyal to the rebellion.

 

[Colter]

I gave you the reasons why I think the school analogy isn´t analogous in the most crucial point.


No, I don´t understand why - for educational purposes - a place created with problems that we´ll never face in the "real thing". We don´t do that in school, and that´s not what school has been created for.



Tbh, I find it quite frustrating when you make a huge, general claim - and upon it being addressed, you tell me how it´s actually not correct. That makes it hard to understand you.

But, ok, then: not only Heaven comes with conditions completely different than here, but also ourselves will be totally different. That makes the need for this existence as am intermediate place of preparation even more implausible.

Christianity contains a lot of human speculation and conjecture which may not be accurate assumptions about Jesus, his teachings, his purpose of coming etc. When your sparing partner said there is no sin in heaven, that's obviously wrong for the BOR talks about a "war in heaven", so that speculation can be thrown out.

 

[quatona]

unrevealed destiny.

Please see #2 of my caveats.

 

[juvenissun]

But, ok, then: not only Heaven comes with conditions completely different than here, but also ourselves will be totally different. That makes the need for this existence as am intermediate place of preparation even more implausible.

I am not going to repeat what I have said.
It is different. But is not "totally" different.

 

[quatona]

I am not going to repeat what I have said.

I appreciate that you aren´t going to.

It is different. But is not "totally" different.

Whatever.

 

[Colter]

Please see #2 of my caveats.

Oh, I didn't read that closely enough. You asked a question related to the core of faith but we can't provide an answer in context to God? I don't have an answer.

 

[FireDragon76]

The OP is part of a larger question. Which is why would a transcendent, omniscient, inconceivably superior and perfect entity do anything at all?

hindu philosophy: lila (play, sport)

classical Christian theism: love

Process theism: creativity

In fairness, Christians do not necessarily believe humanity's final destiny is "heaven". The Bible certainly doesn't talk about this. It talks about the resurrection of the dead and the reign of God. Non-material "heaven" appeals a great deal to power structures that desire to negate the issues of earthly life (and this has even carried through into certain Protestant strains of thought), but both Judaism and Christianity have a tradition of focusing on the physicality of our existence as creatures as essential to who we are. This is why both religions have traditional emphasis on corporal (bodily) acts of mercy as essential evidence of ones sanctity.

 

[jayem]

Just like I said in my earlier reply, Christians still walk, talk, live in houses in the Heaven. Christians still work and still have the same identity as we have that NOW.

Yes, the Heaven is a different and a perfect world. But many things we experienced, and learned NOW will continue in the Heaven. This is critically important. I will still be me, even many things in the new environment could be changed.

Think it this way. School training is very different from the nature of real job. A student could get a D grade in school, but can do an excellent job in real work. Course work in general school does not teach a student how to handle any of his future job (that is why the "job training" is still a program in every company). If so, why do we need schools? Why not let people directly go to the job and learn the practical skill right there? Would that save A LOT of money and time?

The earth, IS the school for Christians. The real job for Christians is in the Heaven.

Are you saying that I could still work in Heaven? At my same job? That would be quite bizarre, since I'm a health care provider. And I don't anyone is ever supposed to get sick or hurt in Heaven.

And come to think of it, what job in Heaven do funeral directors have?

 

[juvenissun]

Are you saying that I could still work in Heaven? At my same job? That would be quite bizarre, since I'm a health care provider. And I don't anyone is ever supposed to get sick or hurt in Heaven.

And come to think of it, what job in Heaven do funeral directors have?

There will be many many sick people outside the Heaven. You (if you made to there) will still be able to use your training on the earth.

 

[Dre Khipov]

What does it matter how people face the difficulties in this life....if those difficulties don't exist in the place you'll spend an eternity?

What's the point of struggling to tie your shoes as a child, when as an adult you wouldn't need to struggle with that?

I don't really defend religion here, but the question implies that there may not be some valid point in that case.

 

[quatona]

What's the point of struggling to tie your shoes as a child, when as an adult you wouldn't need to struggle with that?

That´s not the analogous question. The analogous question would be: Why make a child´s existence circle around solving the problem how to tie shoe-laces when there are no shoes in the adult life?

 

[Dre Khipov]

That´s not the analogous question. The analogous question would be: Why make a child´s existence circle around solving the problem how to tie shoe-laces when there are no shoes in the adult life?

But, in framing the question in such a way you are misrepresenting the Christian view on the subject in the scope of possibility and purpose in terms of "this life's" premise. My point in this analogy was that there are certain progression in any learning structure in which at higher level the previous structure may seem unnecessary, yet it was a necessary step in getting there.

My son is 4 now, and he has trouble getting the basic math. He has to count items individually in order to add/subtract. I can do it quite effortlessly because I'm dealing with process via concepts that are solidified in my mind, thus I don't struggle with that anymore. It's not a problem for me. I don't need to go through an effort of pointing to the individual items to determine that there are 6 in the group. I can actually look at the group of 6 and recognize it as such through my experience.

Thus... experience is the point. (or ... would be the point if such case is true)

 

[quatona]

But, in framing the question in such a way you are misrepresenting the Christian view on the subject in the scope of possibility and purpose in terms of "this life's" premise. My point in this analogy was that there are certain progression in any learning structure in which at higher level the previous structure may seem unnecessary, yet it was a necessary step in getting there.

Ok. So your point is that these earthly experiences are a necessary step in a progressive learning structure the results of which we need in heaven.
This doesn´t answer my initial question how and why they are necessary experiences for this future state - to me they seem to be like learning to tie shoe-laces so that you can tie shoe-laces in a life where there aren´t any shoes, any laces, or where you possibly don´t even have feet.

IOW, I do understand the claim (I already described it in the OP, btw.). Merely repeating the claim, however, doesn´t help me seeing its plausibity.

 

[Dre Khipov]

Ok. So your point is that these earthly experiences are a necessary step in a progressive learning structure the results of which we need in heaven.
This doesn´t answer my initial question how and why they are necessary experiences for this future state - to me they seem to be like learning to tie shoe-laces so that you can tie shoe-laces in a life where there aren´t any shoes, any laces, or where you possibly don´t even have feet.

IOW, I do understand the claim (I already described it in the OP, btw.). Merely repeating the claim, however, doesn´t help me seeing its plausibity.

Sure, but you compare a process to an object in your analogy. That's not the same thing, hence you are missing the point. You seem to get the idea that "post-life" would be like a giant cruise - everything is taken care of, but there are varying views and ideas.

I really wouldn't have time today to discuss this from a perspective of Christian Neo-Realism, neither I think you'd care . You seem to be interested in literal and fundamentalist interpretation of Christian concept.

The bottom line - certain understanding helps us alleviate the suffering. If you know how to tie your shoelaces it's not as much of a suffering and a problem if you don't.

Essentially, you are asking the same type of question as many high-schoolers do - why do I need to learn complex math if I'll never use it. Well, it teaches one how to think.