The Problem of a Missing Motive

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... you seem to hold a strange compatibility between believing one's life is meaningful and believing that the entire universe is intrinsically meaningless and pointless.

I think we make our own meaning(s) in/for life; it's subjective, like morals

 

[zippy2006]

I think we make our own meaning(s) in/for life; it's subjective, like morals

The need to believe is a powerful thing - it's remarkable how tenaciously people cling to beliefs they feel some benefit from, regardless of the dilemmas, paradoxes, and contradictions they may entail, and despite the lack of evidence for them. We are an extraordinary species...

 

[quatona]

But this is the philosophy forum, not the survey forum. My point is that you seem to hold a strange compatibility between believing one's life is meaningful and believing that the entire universe is intrinsically meaningless and pointless.

Certain things mean something to me and/or to others = that´s what I mean when saying "the are meaningful".
I don´t know what else you are thinking of when saying "meaning". Even less do I have an idea what "intrinsically meaningless" is supposed to communicate. Meaningless to whom?

 

[quatona]

(Note this this would have been an ideal topic for the Christian Apologetics Forum, and is technically against the rules here.)

The moderators can move the thread whereever they see fit.

 

[zippy2006]

Even less do I have an idea what "intrinsically meaningless" is supposed to communicate. Meaningless to whom?

Presumably when Frumious used that phrase he meant it as an antonym for "objectively meaningful" or or having meaning in itself, in its essence.

 

[quatona]

Presumably when Frumious used that phrase he meant it as an antonym for "objectively meaningful" or or having meaning in itself, in its essence.

Yeah, maybe he just meant "it has no intrinsic meaning" - which I think is not the same as "it is intrinsically meaningless".
Whatever. Semantics aside, I don´t seem to understand why life without an "intrinsic" meaning appears to be a problem to you, and why you feel there´s a contradiction between a life having no "intrinsic" meaning and it being meaningful to me.
Also, in order to avoid this "intrinsic meaning" issue becoming entirely academic, I think we could expect you to tell us what this "intrinsic" meaning of life is.

 

[Job8]

Thus, if your explanation or line of reasoning will eventually come down to or contains at some point "God´s ways are mysterious" or "It´s beyond human understanding" or some other non-explanatory element, I would kindly ask you to abstain from participating.

In other words you would rather dodge uncomfortable truths.

 

[zippy2006]

Yeah, maybe he just meant "it has no intrinsic meaning" - which I think is not the same as "it is intrinsically meaningless".
Whatever. Semantics aside, I don´t seem to understand why life without an "intrinsic" meaning appears to be a problem to you, and why you feel there´s a contradiction between a life having no "intrinsic" meaning and it being meaningful to me.
Also, in order to avoid this "intrinsic meaning" issue becoming entirely academic, I think we could expect you to tell us what this "intrinsic" meaning of life is.

First, I said that there seems to be an incompatibility between the belief that one's life is meaningful, and the belief that the universe is intrinsically meaningless and pointless, both of which Frumious seems to hold.

The principle seems to be that absence of meaning in the whole implies absence of meaning in the constituent parts. Therefore if I am playing a video game, and my mother insists that the video game is meaningless as a whole, I cannot both agree with her and yet contend that certain parts of the video game are meaningful without equivocation. (Interestingly, I believe Frumious would admit this, thus concluding that there is no "intrinsic meaning" in any part of the universe. Yet not all atheists would do so.)

Although this topic would require a new thread, I am already discussing it privately with a CF member and therefore have neither the time nor interest to re-hash the discussion. If such a thread were created, a top priority would be the defining of "meaning."

 

[quatona]

In other words you would rather dodge uncomfortable truths.

No, I am just asking for explanations, not for non-explanations.

 

[quatona]

First, I said that there seems to be an incompatibility between the belief that one's life is meaningful, and the belief that the universe is intrinsically meaningless and pointless, both of which Frumious holds.

The principle seems to be that absence of meaning in the whole implies absence of meaning in the constituent parts. Therefore if I am playing a video game, and my mother insists that the video game is meaningless as a whole, I cannot both agree with her and yet contend that certain parts of the video game are meaningful without equivocation. (Interestingly, I believe Frumious would admit this, thus concluding that there is no "intrinsic meaning" in any part of the universe. Yet not all atheists would do so.)

Although this topic would require a new thread, I am already discussing it privately with a CF member and therefore have neither the time nor interest to re-hash the discussion. If such a thread were created, a top priority would be the defining of "meaning."

Yes, obviously "this means something to me" and "this has intrinsic meaning" are two different concepts using the same word. They are not to be equivocated, and there´s no incompatibility between the assertion of the first and the negation of the latter (and vice versa).

 

[bhsmte]

In other words you would rather dodge uncomfortable truths.

If you can demonstrate this truth you speak of, the floor is yours.

 

[Job8]

No, I am just asking for explanations, not for non-explanations.

In the spiritual realm, there are limits to what sinful mortals can comprehend. For example, there is no *explanation* for the deity of Christ -- that God could walk on this earth as a Man, and yet remain fully God. You can either believe it, or disbelieve it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Why believe what no one can comprehend?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Presumably when Frumious used that phrase he meant it as an antonym for "objectively meaningful" or or having meaning in itself, in its essence.

I meant 'intrinsically meaningless' in the sense of having no intrinsic meaning, i.e. having no meaning in itself, in its essence. Meaning is something we attribute to things and events.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

First, I said that there seems to be an incompatibility between the belief that one's life is meaningful, and the belief that the universe is intrinsically meaningless and pointless, both of which Frumious holds.

I didn't say one's life is meaningful, I said, "I think we make our own meaning(s) in/for life", and "meaning is something we impose upon the experiential world". If you want to tell people what I think, please either quote me directly, or ask me what I think first.

 

[zippy2006]

I didn't say one's life is meaningful, I said, "I think we make our own meaning(s) in/for life", and "meaning is something we impose upon the experiential world". If you want to tell people what I think, please either quote me directly, or ask me what I think first.

First, I said that there seems to be an incompatibility between the belief that one's life is meaningful, and the belief that the universe is intrinsically meaningless and pointless, both of which Frumious holds.

My point is that you seem to hold a strange compatibility between believing one's life is meaningful and believing that the entire universe is intrinsically meaningless and pointless.

I think we make our own meaning(s) in/for life; it's subjective, like morals

I was explaining my post. If you read on it's clear that I am not accusing you of direct equivocation:

(Interestingly, I believe Frumious would admit this, thus concluding that there is no "intrinsic meaning" in any part of the universe. Yet not all atheists would do so.)

(But I will add a provision to that post)

 

[bhsmte]

Why believe what no one cannot comprehend?

Comfort.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Comfort.

(I fixed the grammar in my post.)

 

[bhsmte]

(I fixed the grammar in my post.)

I knew what you meant.

 

[quatona]

In the spiritual realm, there are limits to what sinful mortals can comprehend.

I did understand that you can´t comprehend it and therefore can´t answer my question. That´s ok.