The Problem of a Missing Motive

[quatona]

First off two things:
1. This isn´t meant to prove the Christian God non-existent (albeit imo, it is related to e.g. the Problem of Evil). It´s just about something at the core of Christian theology that doesn´t make any sense at all, to me.
2. Obviously, I am looking for an explanation that makes sense on human terms. Thus, if your explanation or line of reasoning will eventually come down to or contains at some point "God´s ways are mysterious" or "It´s beyond human understanding" or some other non-explanatory element, I would kindly ask you to abstain from participating.

The question in short:
Why would a non-material/non-physical (entirely "spiritual") being create a material/physical world when the actual goal (that which it is all about) is again a "spiritual" state of affairs?

More in detail:

"Spiritual" realms and physical/natural/material realms are quite apparently very different in nature, the problems (assuming for a moment there are problems in the "spiritual realm" at all) are of very different nature and manifestations, and problem-solving requires totally different means and competences in those different realms.

Just to name the first two things that come to mind as appearing exclusive to the physical realm (and which seem to be the basis for most "evil", "suffering", "trouble", "struggles", "sins" (or whatever you want to call it - I hope you get the idea) :
- Limited resources
- Zero sum games.

The most frequent explanations I have heard for creating this physical realm:
It´s some kind of test run for the "spiritual" afterlife, a method to separate those who are fit for this afterlife from those who aren´t.
Now, what´s the point in creating realmB as a test for our fitness for realmA when those problems that we have to deal with/overcome in realmB don´t even exist in realmA?

Or IOW: why create a world exclusively for beings to prove that they are "not of this world"?

 

[Albion]

First off two things:
1. This isn´t meant to be prove the Christian God non-existent (albeit imo, it is related to e.g. the Problem of Evil). It´s just about something at the core of Christian theology that doesn´t make any sense at all, to me.
2. Obviously, I am looking for an explanation that makes sense on human terms. Thus, if your explanation or line of reasoning will eventually come down to or contains at some point "God´s ways are mysterious" or "It´s beyond human understanding" or some other non-explanatory element, I would kindly ask you to abstain from participating.

The question in short:
Why would a non-material/non-physical (entirely "spiritual") being create a material/physical world when the actual goal (that which it is all about) is again a "spiritual" state of affairs?

While that sounds right, it's actually not what Christianity thinks or believes about the course of events, or of God's eternal plan. Jesus arose in his body, albeit a glorified one, and it is believed that we will rise also. The "resurrection of the body" is, in fact, an article contained in the most authoritative of all creeds, the Nicene Creed that most Christian denominations affirm.

 

[quatona]

While that sounds right, it's actually not what Christianity thinks or believes about the course of events, or of God's eternal plan. Jesus arose in his body, albeit a glorified one, and it is believed that we will rise also. The "resurrection of the body" is, in fact, an article contained in the most authoritative of all creeds, the Nicene Creed that most Christian denominations affirm.

In which way are the physical aspects of afterlife similar to this life, and in which way are they different?
Could you name a few examples of zero sum games and limited resources in heaven?

 

[Ana the Ist]

In which way are the physical aspects of afterlife similar to this life, and in which way are they different?
Could you name a few examples of zero sum games and limited resources in heaven?

Are you suggesting (in a roundabout way) that god could've created the universe in such a way that all resources are unlimited...thereby reducing a great deal of conflict and suffering that comes from competing for these resources?

 

[Noxot]

if things are limited it might draw out flaws and character defects or virtues that were not revealed in a reality where everything was provided for us, therefore by experiencing reality in very many different ways we become more and more unique as individual souls. somewhere along the way this universe ended up being made. how fun are games when you are in God mode? it was okay for a while but we got sick of things being so easy.

 

[jayem]

The OP is part of a larger question. Which is why would a transcendent, omniscient, inconceivably superior and perfect entity do anything at all?

 

[Albion]

In which way are the physical aspects of afterlife similar to this life, and in which way are they different?

We are not given to know exactly what heaven and, for that matter, hell are like. We're told, in Scripture, certain things about them, but it's way above our ability to know it all, just as we are able to contemplate a God and certain of the facts about his nature, but in this life we are not able to know everything about God. That's why we have revelation--to know as much as it serves God to reveal at this time.

 

[quatona]

Are you suggesting (in a roundabout way) that god could've created the universe in such a way that all resources are unlimited...thereby reducing a great deal of conflict and suffering that comes from competing for these resources?

Not really. For purposes of this thread I am accepting the premise that a natural/physical/material universe must come with limited resources and zero sum games, and I am asking "What would be an intelligible reason to create such a physical place as an intermediate state in between "spiritual" and "spiritual"?".
Of course, if someone suggests - as Albion just seemed to do - that the afterlife realm is physical but without those limiting conditions, your question might take over.

 

[Ana the Ist]

if things are limited it might draw out flaws and character defects or virtues that were not revealed in a reality where everything was provided for us, therefore by experiencing reality in very many different ways we become more and more unique as individual souls. somewhere along the way this universe ended up being made. how fun are games when you are in God mode? it was okay for a while but we got sick of things being so easy.

So you don't believe in an eternity in heaven?

Or you don't believe heaven is without sin or problems?

 

[quatona]

The OP is part of a larger question. Which is why would a transcendent, omniscient, inconceivably superior and perfect entity do anything at all?

Sure. Or "what does "doing" actually mean in the absence of time"?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not really. For purposes of this thread I am accepting the premise that a natural/physical/material universe must come with limited resources and zero sum games, and I am asking "What would be an intelligible reason to create such a physical place as an intermediate state in between "spiritual" and "spiritual"?".
Of course, if someone suggests - as Albion just seemed to do - that the afterlife realm is physical but without those limiting conditions, your question might take over.

Personally, I've always found the idea of hell much easier to comprehend than heaven. In heaven, it would seem that I'm no longer a free-will actor, but rather an automaton for god's pleasure. It's either that, or my self gets horribly mutilated in some way that causes me to lose most of my humanity.

As far as rewards for following a god's requests go...it's not too appealing.

 

[quatona]

We are not given to know

Have you read my second caveat?

 

[quatona]

if things are limited it might draw out flaws and character defects or virtues that were not revealed in a reality where everything was provided for us

I don´t understand this. Why create a realm in which flaws and defects are revealed that aren´t flaws and defects in the actually important realm?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don´t understand this. Why create a realm in which flaws and defects are revealed that aren´t flaws and defects in the actually important realm?

I hadn't thought about it this way, but you're correct...it doesn't make any sense.

If what is important is this notion of heaven, this state of communion with god, this place where you bask in his love and wisdom...why would you first place people into a world where they are essentially forced to be "lesser" than they would be in heaven?

What does it matter how people face the difficulties in this life....if those difficulties don't exist in the place you'll spend an eternity?

 

[Noxot]

So you don't believe in an eternity in heaven?

Or you don't believe heaven is without sin or problems?

I do believe in an eternity in heaven, which means to be with God. but if the psychosomatic is cut off from the bigger part of myself then things go bad for my little part of me. in being small I am cold and have a bad idea of how things are. therefore ignorance, limitations, and freedom gives the possibility for sins and problems. so the soul must be reunited with its virgin divine original image otherwise i'm like a hand with a nail in it.

there are different designations for what heaven is. if all souls are a hierarchy of capacity for the divine then smaller ones look more like hell and bigger ones more like heaven. each soul is a heaven and if it is darkened then there are problems in heaven. freedom is before being and therefore if a being has freedom but is created good then he can either stay as he is, become something less, or become something greater.

 

[Noxot]

I don´t understand this. Why create a realm in which flaws and defects are revealed that aren´t flaws and defects in the actually important realm?

I dunno, ask the people that believe that this realm is not important. I think it is.

I hadn't thought about it this way, but you're correct...it doesn't make any sense.

If what is important is this notion of heaven, this state of communion with god, this place where you bask in his love and wisdom...why would you first place people into a world where they are essentially forced to be "lesser" than they would be in heaven?

What does it matter how people face the difficulties in this life....if those difficulties don't exist in the place you'll spend an eternity?

how would you feel if I only liked you because you had big breast?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I do believe in an eternity in heaven, which means to be with God. but if the psychosomatic is cut off from the bigger part of myself then things go bad for my little part of me. in being small I am cold and have a bad idea of how things are. therefore ignorance, limitations, and freedom gives the possibility for sins and problems. so the soul must be reunited with its virgin divine original image otherwise i'm like a hand with a nail in it.

there are different designations for what heaven is. if all souls are a hierarchy of capacity for the divine then smaller ones look more like hell and bigger ones more like heaven. each soul is a heaven and if it is darkened then there are problems in heaven. freedom is before being and therefore if a being has freedom but is created good then he can either stay as he is, become something less, or become something greater.

I really don't know what you mean here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I dunno, ask the people that believe that this realm is not important. I think it is.

Why is it important?

how would you feel if I only liked you because you had big breast?

If I had big cans, I wouldn't care what you think..I'd be playing with them.

 

[quatona]

I dunno, ask the people that believe that this realm is not important. I think it is.

Important in which way? Important for what?

how would you feel if I only liked you because you had big breast?

Could we please stay on topic, please? I mean, this thread hasn´t even gone beyond the first page.
It´s not the place for getting your private romantic confessions sorted.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Not really. For purposes of this thread I am accepting the premise that a natural/physical/material universe must come with limited resources and zero sum games, and I am asking "What would be an intelligible reason to create such a physical place as an intermediate state in between "spiritual" and "spiritual"?".
Of course, if someone suggests - as Albion just seemed to do - that the afterlife realm is physical but without those limiting conditions, your question might take over.

The idea of God and an afterlife is absurd. As we expand our awareness through "spiritual development", it becomes less absurd.. but still absurd. This isn't by accident.

I believe the answer to your question of why this physical reality exists is for the purpose of transforming from ignorance and limitation to self actualization through exercising faith. I don't think it's important for you or anyone else to agree with me on that, though.