The Problem of a Different Past

[dad]

No Dad, I AM educated. I am not proclaiming my ignorance as virtue.

OK. I have met many an educated folk that didn't go out of their way to try to talk over people. But, you do yours, I'll do mine.

I'm sure Jesus is so happy with you telling people they stink stink stink.

We do, we are all sinners, and our own righteousness is, like Jesus Himself said, like filthy, menstrous rags.
Our wisdom is foolishness to God, His ways, like the heavens are far too high for us. So our thoughts, and thinking really only go so far. Is that OK with you?

This is a serious question, Dad: Are you functionally illiterate? Did you even READ what I wrote? It wasn't a patronizing comment.

I guess I go somewhat by the spirit of what is being said. You know, saying things something like 'if I was patronizing you you wouldn't even know it'
I am a bit allergic to a condesending attitude.

Oh, you don't give a ...?

Nope. Not about things you have dug up so far, and the boring has beens you think I am supposed to study.

LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR FAITH!

My faith apprently is not what you think it is. And the way you talk about the bible, and some things, I am not at all interested in learning about yours. Period. Thank you very much.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

So? What is so wrong about knowing?

If God knew that Adam would eat from the apple and then be excluded from eating from tree of life how could He have intended that Adam eat from the tree of life?

No, otherwise you could prove it. That we know. Do you think it was gravity as we know it that held the angels down to the surface of the planet??

What angels were held down to the surface of the planet?

In fact, it is about time you started admitting all you don't know about the past. Especially in the light of all you can't prove, and assume.

I know that there are solid data indicating that physical laws have been constant for far longer than your myth allows and that there are no data that give any indication that your imagined split occured.

No, look at an example.

There was about as much 206 Pb at the split when decay started. Because it is decaying now, they imagine that it all got there that way. The amount is not that important.

The ratio of U-238 to Pb-206 and the ratio of U235- Pb207 each had to be just right so that both would indicate the same radiometric age even though the half-life of U235/Pb207 is 700 million years and the half life of U235/P206 is 4.5 billion just as your illustration shows. What a coincidence! Further for many sets of rocks including the Fen complex in Norway you also need to ratios of Th232/Pb208, Ar40/Ar39 and Rb87/Sr87 to be just right to give the same age as that obtained from U235/Pb207 and U238/Pb206, an even bigger coincidence. You see the same thing over and over with sets of rocks that have been dated using multiple methods. How is it that so many sets of rocks have just the right ratios of so many different parent and daughter isotopes to give consistent dates? This is the question you can't begin to answer.

None, under present conditions. You seem to forget that an atomic level change occurred, and that we can play with electrons, and charges, etc. That means that it's a whole new ballgame in the reaction department for sure.

So why is there no evidence of such different chemistry going on? Why do mineral in rocks deposited before the flood in your myth still give every evidence of having been formed by the same chemical reactions that occur today? Do you have any idea of what the consequences of different laws of chemistry a few thousand years ago would have? I suggest you study some chemistry and biochemistry before throwing such wild ideas around. Do you think that chlorine was not a gas before the split? Do you think that sodium hydroxide was not a base before the split? Do you think that sodium was not a metal before the split?

You are talking how PO reactions occur, under the present universe fabric arrangement. You can't do that.

Of course I can since there is absolutely no evidence that the unviverse ever had a different "fabric" at least over the last several billion years.

Well, what I was looking at was a possible piling up, and affecting of some areas in a great continental movement. If that was when a lot of the mountain building went on, after all, some areas may have been affected.

The salts in the Michigan basin show no evidence of have been "piled up" by tectonic processes.

But we simply need to look at the individual case. This does not affect my position in any way, obviously, because the waters, and reactions, and etc that put a lot of that salt there were pre split. So, how would shoving a continent over affect the salt that was already there, that would be the concern there. Not whether the salt sprung up post split, don't be absurd.

You post the gibbering nonsense above trying to justfy the deposit of thousands of trillions of tons of salt in uniform layers by water coming up through the earth and tell me not to be absurd! Talk about busting irony meters!

Hoo haw, thank you.

You still haven't figured out the least little thing about how science works have you.

Well, if they did come from below, how would they be similar now, since water and stuff doesn't come up anymore? Try to focus.

Are you saying that magnetic spherules that happen to be just like those that currently fall as space dust came up from below with the salt presplit? How did that work? You just have strectch your myth into more and more convoluted twists all the time.

Right, they did as I said, and assumed the present natural. Nothing more. Just assumed. And where's that?
Now you are starting to remind me of an old boxer that comes out of retirement, when they are past the good years. I know you made a reasonable sparring partner in the past, but you really aren't up to the job any more.

Your job was largely to illustrate that it had to be a universe change.

No, I have illustrated that all the scientific data show that the earth is billions of years old and that the flood of Noah, if it ever occured, was not worldwide.

Now that that is established, it is kind of futile trying to use the PO stuff where it can't apply. See, cause that's all you know.

All you know is fantasy from your own imagination.

Maybe the best course of action is to admit you just really don't know, and science can't tell us. Your same past myth really is busted.

I know all the data indicate that the laws of physics have been constant for far longer than your myth allows and that even your constantly morphing myth of a different past can't actually explain the data as you have demonstrated by failing on this and several other threads.

 

[dad]

If God knew that Adam would eat from the apple and then be excluded from eating from tree of life how could He have intended that Adam eat from the tree of life?

If I let a kid play out in the park, and they got a broken arm, am I intending that? If the kid jumped off a school roof, having been told not to, is the school to blame for that? If I tell a teen girl not to take drugs, and hang with the local pusher, and she decides to sleep with the guy, get stoned, and have a baby, is it me to blame? We have choices, and God limits Himself to respect that. What should He do, switch off our chooices, and built in little commands, so we are robots??

What angels were held down to the surface of the planet? I know that there are solid data indicating that physical laws have been constant for far longer than your myth allows and that there are no data that give any indication that your imagined split occured.

The sons of god married earth girls, and had babies even. Angels can fly if they like, do you think it was gravity as it now is that held them down to earth??
The so called solid data must be some secret, noone ever posted any, and I never heard of it before. You sure you aren't making stuff up?

The ratio of U-238 to Pb-206 and the ratio of U235- Pb207 each had to be just right so that both would indicate the same radiometric age even though the half-life of U235/Pb207 is 700 million years and the half life of U235/P206 is 4.5 billion just as your illustration shows. What a coincidence!

The ratio is the amount of each material present. It really has nothing to do with age, except in the last 4400 years. That is how long decay mode has been here. So, the fantasizing that the past was the same is ALL that gives it any imaginary dates at all. It is no coincedence that the daughter material is there. It was used apparently in the former process, when the escalator, so to speak went up, rather than down. More or less the same stairs, or escalator, so naturally the materials in the escalator shoould be there. But now, rather than work towards an eternal state, in conjuntion with the spiritual, the PO materials, in the physical only state are in decay. Naturally the now daughter material would be there, and be correlated to the present process.

Further for many sets of rocks including the Fen complex in Norway you also need to ratios of Th232/Pb208, Ar40/Ar39 and Rb87/Sr87 to be just right to give the same age as that obtained from U235/Pb207 and U238/Pb206, an even bigger coincidence.

That changes nothing, since all we are really talking about is materials in the complex. Same principle.

You see the same thing over and over with sets of rocks that have been dated using multiple methods. How is it that so many sets of rocks have just the right ratios of so many different parent and daughter isotopes to give consistent dates? This is the question you can't begin to answer.

Dates aside, since they are meaningless, we have ratios of materials in the rocks. Leftover materials, and a new process, state, or relationship. Since only the state is changed, the relationship and ratios are the same as before, (minus the decay for some thousands of years) only if one looks at the present decay, they assume it was responsible for all the materials. Remember, the materials were in the same ratio more or less before, but not in decay, so they were needed, and, like rungs in the escalator a part of what was going on then as well. We didn't just suddenly get different amounts of all these materials appear in the rocks! I don't know how I can help you more than that.

So why is there no evidence of such different chemistry going on? Why do mineral in rocks deposited before the flood in your myth still give every evidence of having been formed by the same chemical reactions that occur today?

Rather than a broad answer, we might look at a specific example. Do you have one?

Do you have any idea of what the consequences of different laws of chemistry a few thousand years ago would have?

Do you have any idea how different heaven is? How different a merged state universe is??

I suggest you study some chemistry and biochemistry before throwing such wild ideas around. Do you think that chlorine was not a gas before the split?

Well, you are thinking in the box.
"
Chlorine consists of two isotopes : The first isotope has a mass number of 35 which has 18 neutrons and The second isotope has a mass number of 37 which has 20 neutrons in the nucleus. "
http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/dict/000i1.html#Isotopes
Now, when we talk atomic level changes, we really can't be limited by today's atomic structure, and fabric, now can we?? It was not just mixing up present chemicals, but the whole fabric, and relationships. You can't hardly imagine what adding a neutron, or an electron, or maybe a spiriton for all we know, or having a positive charge here instead of a negative one, etc. It opens up a pandora's box so big, that there are so many combinations, and possibilities, we are left with only one option. We either had a different past, or we did not. You need to prove there was a same past, but you can't, it is a myth!

Of course I can since there is absolutely no evidence that the unviverse ever had a different "fabric" at least over the last several billion years.

That in entirely a same past assumption. There really was no billions or millions, or even 10,000 years. Not even 8000 years of there being a planet earth, or heavens. Or man.

The salts in the Michigan basin show no evidence of have been "piled up" by tectonic processes.

OK, so that would not be a factor in that locale, apparently. We do have the rivers coming in, and the waters from below.

Are you saying that magnetic spherules that happen to be just like those that currently fall as space dust came up from below with the salt presplit? How did that work? You just have strectch your myth into more and more convoluted twists all the time.

Well, they usually figure iridium is from space, but it is also in the inner earth.
Here is something for you.

Now here they don't just consider space. So far, you haven't really explained your case for what they are, and why they had to be from space. What, we should just believe you?
"The record of magnetic spherules in sediments from Crummock Water (the English Lake District) is presented and a method for obtaining magnetic extracts described. It is shown that magnetic spherule concentrations in the Crummock Water sediments increases by nearly two orders of magnitude following the Industrial Revolution, and this can be attributed to increases in fossil fuel combustion particularly after about 1900 A.D. Associated with the increase in spherule numbers are changes in their size distributions, which may reflect the changing sources for the spherules"
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=4435953

Can you prove to us that these things could not have come from any where pre split, but space????

All you know is fantasy from your own imagination.
I know all the data indicate that the laws of physics have been constant for far longer than your myth allows and that even your constantly morphing myth of a different past can't actually explain the data as you have demonstrated by failing on this and several other threads.

Nothing explains it better. Your so called evidence of physics in the past is all based on assuming the past was the same as now. Never could there be more circular reasoning. It's about time you too admit that science does not know the state of the past, or future. It is just assumed. Humble down, you're busted.

 

[Morcova]

If I let a kid play out in the park, and they got a broken arm, am I intending that? If the kid jumped off a school roof, having been told not to, is the school to blame for that? If I tell a teen girl not to take drugs, and hang with the local pusher, and she decides to sleep with the guy, get stoned, and have a baby, is it me to blame?

If you are an all knowning God. Yes.

You knew what would happen and what would come of it. And you did nothing.

 

[Morcova]

Your so called evidence of physics in the past is all based on assuming the past was the same as now. Never could there be more circular reasoning.

You've never shown any reason why the past wouldn't be the same as it is now. It's up to you to provide that proof, the fact is there is none that points to such a insane idea.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

If I let a kid play out in the park, and they got a broken arm, am I intending that? If the kid jumped off a school roof, having been told not to, is the school to blame for that? If I tell a teen girl not to take drugs, and hang with the local pusher, and she decides to sleep with the guy, get stoned, and have a baby, is it me to blame? We have choices, and God limits Himself to respect that. What should He do, switch off our chooices, and built in little commands, so we are robots??

You are completely missing the point here. Do you think you are omnipotent? If you knew the kid was to get a broken arm because you were ominipotent then you must have intended for him to get it. If God is truely omnipotent He must have known that He would be kicking Adam out of the Garden so He couldn't have intended for Adam to eat from the tree of life. Either God is not omnipotent or He didn't intend for Adam to eat from the tree of life as you claimed. So was your claim wrong or is God not omnipotent?

The sons of god married earth girls, and had babies even. Angels can fly if they like, do you think it was gravity as it now is that held them down to earth??

The sons of God married earth girls? Who was the mother of these sons of God? I thought God had only one son. If there is any verse that shows the mythical nature of the first part of Genesis it is that one. But if they really were the sons of God why would they worry about a little thing like gravity?

The so called solid data must be some secret, noone ever posted any, and I never heard of it before. You sure you aren't making stuff up?

The data from Supernova 1987A show that Cobalt decay and the speed of light were the same 168,000 years ago as now and your nonsense about PO light getting in a non PO path or whatever just shows how absurd you can be. The data from Lake Varves, coral couplets and ice cores all show consistency of process going back many thousands of years with no evidence of your mythical split and you were totally unable to explain the correlations with your myth.

The ratio is the amount of each material present. It really has nothing to do with age, except in the last 4400 years. That is how long decay mode has been here. So, the fantasizing that the past was the same is ALL that gives it any imaginary dates at all. It is no coincedence that the daughter material is there. It was used apparently in the former process, when the escalator, so to speak went up, rather than down. More or less the same stairs, or escalator, so naturally the materials in the escalator shoould be there. But now, rather than work towards an eternal state, in conjuntion with the spiritual, the PO materials, in the physical only state are in decay. Naturally the now daughter material would be there, and be correlated to the present process.

This is absolute nonsense and does not explain cocordant radiometric dates in any way.

That changes nothing, since all we are really talking about is materials in the complex. Same principle.

In other words you have no way to actually explain why the ratios of daughters to parents of so many different isotopes agree to give consistent dates for so many different sets of rocks.

Dates aside, since they are meaningless, we have ratios of materials in the rocks. Leftover materials, and a new process, state, or relationship. Since only the state is changed, the relationship and ratios are the same as before, (minus the decay for some thousands of years) only if one looks at the present decay, they assume it was responsible for all the materials. Remember, the materials were in the same ratio more or less before, but not in decay, so they were needed, and, like rungs in the escalator a part of what was going on then as well. We didn't just suddenly get different amounts of all these materials appear in the rocks!

Of course not, they appear over millions of years of radiometric decay from parents to daughters.

I don't know how I can help you more than that.

You can't help your failed model any more than that because it is complete nonsense of course. Why were tiny amounts of these materials needed in exactly the right proportions of each set to give the appear of concordant radiometric dates?

Rather than a broad answer, we might look at a specific example. Do you have one?

Do you have any evidence that chemistry was different 5,000 years ago? I don't think so.

Do you have any idea how different heaven is? How different a merged state universe is??

No I don't have any idea what heaven is like and neither do you. Unlike you I don't expect to be eating steak and getting in on with Marilyn Monroe in heaven but the status of heaven has absolutely nothing to do with science or the geologic history of the earth.

Well, you are thinking in the box.
"

You mean I am not making up complete and baseles fantasies.

Chlorine consists of two isotopes : The first isotope has a mass number of 35 which has 18 neutrons and The second isotope has a mass number of 37 which has 20 neutrons in the nucleus. "
http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/dict/000i1.html#Isotopes
Now, when we talk atomic level changes, we really can't be limited by today's atomic structure, and fabric, now can we?? It was not just mixing up present chemicals, but the whole fabric, and relationships. You can't hardly imagine what adding a neutron, or an electron,

Adding a neutron changes the atomic mass but has relatively little effect on chemistry. Adding an electron results in an ion, as in cl- which is the species in a salt solution. If you maintain electrical neutrality by adding a proton and an electron you have a different element.

or maybe a spiriton for all we know, or having a positive charge here instead of a negative one, etc.

Spiriton! I thought spiritons carried light in your fantasy somewhat like photons do in the real world.

It opens up a pandora's box so big, that there are so many combinations, and possibilities, we are left with only one option. We either had a different past, or we did not. You need to prove there was a same past, but you can't, it is a myth!

Right there wasn't electricity before the split, it was spiriticity and lightening bolts were made of spriticity thrown by the Might Thor. All hail the Might Thor!

That in entirely a same past assumption. There really was no billions or millions, or even 10,000 years. Not even 8000 years of there being a planet earth, or heavens. Or man.



OK, so that would not be a factor in that locale, apparently. We do have the rivers coming in, and the waters from below.


Well, they usually figure iridium is from space, but it is also in the inner earth.
Here is something for you.

Now here they don't just consider space. So far, you haven't really explained your case for what they are, and why they had to be from space. What, we should just believe you?

The authors of the paper concluded that the spherules in the salt were from space after considering and rejecting volcanic ash and inorganic preciptation as sources of the spherules because the morphology of the spherules is the same as those coming from space today and does not match the other sources. Of course they didn't consider that the spherules were either brought up from the earth along with the salts by "mists" or pooped out by invisible pink unicorns.

"The record of magnetic spherules in sediments from Crummock Water (the English Lake District) is presented and a method for obtaining magnetic extracts described. It is shown that magnetic spherule concentrations in the Crummock Water sediments increases by nearly two orders of magnitude following the Industrial Revolution, and this can be attributed to increases in fossil fuel combustion particularly after about 1900 A.D. Associated with the increase in spherule numbers are changes in their size distributions, which may reflect the changing sources for the spherules"
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=4435953

Can you prove to us that these things could not have come from any where pre split, but space????

The preponderance of the evidence indicates that the spherules in the salts came from space. Magnetic spherules from industrial pollution range in size from 0.1-0.7 microns and are irregularly shaped. Those analyzed by Mutch in the paper Glenn referenced (which I have) were greater than 5 microns in diameter and smooth spheres just like those that come from space today.

Never saw that one. I was turned off at the Life of Brian concept, which I never saw either, so never watched hardly anything from that crew. But did I tell you the one about the young US soldier and the nazi in WW2? The young black soldier was out of ammo, but had a barber's razor, a trick he learned in the Bronx. The nazi saw he swung at him, and figured the kid missed. So said, 'Ha, you missed me, now you die'. The soldier replied. 'That's what you think, jus waits till yo tries to shake yo head'.

This obnoxious racist joke has nothing to do with the subject.

Nothing explains it better. Your so called evidence of physics in the past is all based on assuming the past was the same as now. Never could there be more circular reasoning. It's about time you too admit that science does not know the state of the past, or future. It is just assumed. Humble down, you're busted.

The scientific model of the universe explains all the data in a parsimonious fashion. Your convoluted fantasy fails to explain the data no matter how you twist it as we have seen over and over now. It is your myth that is busted.

 

[Contracelsus]

.
"
Chlorine consists of two isotopes : The first isotope has a mass number of 35 which has 18 neutrons and The second isotope has a mass number of 37 which has 20 neutrons in the nucleus. "
http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/dict/000i1.html#Isotopes
Now, when we talk atomic level changes, we really can't be limited by today's atomic structure, and fabric, now can we?? It was not just mixing up present

Dad there's a whole field of STABLE ISOTOPE GEOCHEMISTRY that we have available to us. We know a LOT about how the isotopes fractionate.

Further Frumious has told you that we have these rocks from pre-split times and the elements look pretty much as they do today. If they were all jumbled up as you seem to want, we'd have some evidence for that.

Again, learn some Chemistry before bringing this stuff to the table. You are wrong here.

Well, they usually figure iridium is from space, but it is also in the inner earth.
Here is something for you.

(IMG OF ARTICLE)

Now here they don't just consider space. So far, you haven't really explained your case for what they are, and why they had to be from space. What, we should just believe you?
"The record of magnetic spherules in sediments from Crummock Water (the English Lake District) is presented and a method for obtaining magnetic extracts described. It is shown that magnetic spherule concentrations in the Crummock Water sediments increases by nearly two orders of magnitude following the Industrial Revolution, and this can be attributed to increases in fossil fuel combustion particularly after about 1900 A.D. Associated with the increase in spherule numbers are changes in their size distributions, which may reflect the changing sources for the spherules"
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=4435953

Are these spherules IRIDIUM OXIDES or IRON OXIDES? There's a difference. Iron is NOT Iridium despite having some of the same letters (you learn that in a chemistry class).

Remember there's a lot of iron in coal, so when you burn the pyrite it makes iron oxides! I know the Industrial Revolution was a long time ago, but they burned coal then! (It was post-split dontcha know)

Please provide more than the ABSTRACT of a paper before making people draw conclusions from your "science salad".

Can you prove to us that these things could not have come from any where pre split, but space????

Actually they can and do. It is a matter of chemistry. It is a matter of isotopic composition, it is a matter for someone with learning in this area. Not just someone spouting doubt for doubt's sake. I thought you didn't like "doubters".

 

[dad]

If you are an all knowning God. Yes.

You knew what would happen and what would come of it. And you did nothing.

If I did something in that case, if I were God, wouldn't I have to take away the free will? If He steps in for the one, He pretty well needs to step right in for all.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

If I did something in that case, if I were God, wouldn't I have to take away the free will? If He steps in for the one, He pretty well needs to step right in for all.

If you didn't know that you creation would defy you and then get kicked out before eating from the tree of life you would not be all knowing. If did knowingly create a creature that you knew would defy you before eating of the tree of life then you must not have intended for your creation to live forever.

 

[dad]

You are completely missing the point here. Do you think you are omnipotent? If you knew the kid was to get a broken arm because you were ominipotent then you must have intended for him to get it.

We are here to experience life, and learn lessons. Some lessons are deep dark ones, that come from real tough times, and sufferings. Some of the best lessons, perhaps. Even Jesus learned from the things He suffered here.
If we are careless, and disobey, and don't follow the rules, we could get hurt. That is something maybe many of us need to learn. Did the Father step in in the garden of Gethsemene, and save Jesus? No. Did Jesus raise His pinky, to give the secret signal to the legions of angry, powerful angels at the ready to come in and wipe out the punks killing the son of God?? No. Just becaus God knows what will be, even writes about in in prophesy to remove any doubt hundreds of years earlier, doesn't mean He is going to take over here before the time, and end the reign of man.

If God is truely omnipotent He must have known that He would be kicking Adam out of the Garden so He couldn't have intended for Adam to eat from the tree of life.

He gave us the real choice, we determined what went on, not Him, by our choice He allowed us to make. Adam and Eve, some suggest were closer to God after they got the boot, than before! They started to realize they needed God, and that He was right.

Either God is not omnipotent or He didn't intend for Adam to eat from the tree of life as you claimed. So was your claim wrong or is God not omnipotent?

He limits Himself to our choices, such is the incredible power of free will. Not some cheap gift.

The sons of God married earth girls? Who was the mother of these sons of God? I thought God had only one son. If there is any verse that shows the mythical nature of the first part of Genesis it is that one. But if they really were the sons of God why would they worry about a little thing like gravity?

They wouldn't worry, that is my point. God has one begotten Son, and many sons. There was some sort of spiritual level, apparently in the pre split years not too far away. Remember they tried to build a tower up to it, that is how close it was. Looking at the sky now, being seperate from the spiritual, that seems patently ridiculous. It is, ..now. What forces were in place up in that level? Spirits can't be pulled by physical only forces. Obviously on the ground, we had forces at work that governed physical things. What about up there in the spirit level? Way up past that was where the water was, so we might assume that gravity in any uniform way we know it, and present state did not apply there.
How about deep under the earth? We know that is a place where, even today, spirits live. Did the physical only laws extend down there as well? Who knows?
The whole thing, really is a deep study. We hardly touch the surface, so to speak.

The data from Supernova 1987A show that Cobalt decay and the speed of light were the same 168,000 years ago as now and your nonsense about PO light getting in a non PO path or whatever just shows how absurd you can be.

Whoah. It shows that the far away SN is in the PO state, as the rest of the universe. It does not show it always was or will be by any wild stretch of the imagination. A simple far away fallacy. Distance was not as limiting then, as it is now.

The data from Lake Varves, coral couplets and ice cores all show consistency of process going back many thousands of years with no evidence of your mythical split and you were totally unable to explain the correlations with your myth.

In other words, your little motor is set to whir around looking at everything as it now is, and works, and try to rewind the clock on that basis! But first, I repeat FIRST, you need to prove, support, and demonstrate that the past was in the present state. Otherwise, you are just assuming, assuming assuming.

In other words you have no way to actually explain why the ratios of daughters to parents of so many different isotopes agree to give consistent dates for so many different sets of rocks.

As explained the ratios were here already, but undewent a process, and state change. So, like a factory that is retooled, with new owners, the employess, daughters, etc are more or less the same, but the factory now produces death and decay, rather than a stable forever matter universe.

Do you have any evidence that chemistry was different 5,000 years ago? I don't think so.

Do you have any evidence that the state required for present reations was the same, or will be in the future?? I don't think so.

No I don't have any idea what heaven is like and neither do you. Unlike you I don't expect to be eating steak and getting in on with Marilyn Monroe in heaven but the status of heaven has absolutely nothing to do with science or the geologic history of the earth.

God is coming to this earth, and it is going to be very very different, as will be the city that lands, the whole heavens, or universe, and our bodies, just as His was spiritual and physical!! And I am looking forward to a lot of loving friends forever there, including a lot of real gorgeous gals. Remember, that they get to pick the age they want to remain at. Maybe many will chose to be 'in their twenties' others, the thirties. Who knows, mabye some might prefer to look like a granny?

You mean I am not making up complete and baseles fantasies. Adding a neutron changes the atomic mass but has relatively little effect on chemistry. Adding an electron results in an ion, as in cl- which is the species in a salt solution. If you maintain electrical neutrality by adding a proton and an electron you have a different element. Spiriton!

Well, thanks for your little stab at merged universe atomic reactions, etc. I have to say I just don't know how it works exactly there. But anything is possible now.

I thought spiritons carried light in your fantasy somewhat like photons do in the real world.

I don't know anything about spiritons. I simply used the name to denote the addition of the spiritual with the physical.

Right there wasn't electricity before the split, it was spiriticity and lightening bolts were made of spriticity thrown by the Might Thor. All hail the Might Thor!

Well, you know, they say lightning can cause some reactions.For example, if we had a new planet with the right rocks, and compounds, etc, and bombarded it with lightning, I think it would produce water. Just a thought. But, a lot of things were very different, yes. Many things, likely quite similar as well.

The authors of the paper concluded that the spherules in the salt were from space after considering and rejecting volcanic ash and inorganic preciptation as sources of the spherules because the morphology of the spherules is the same as those coming from space today and does not match the other sources.

Right. It doesn't match industrial stuff, or volcanic orgins, etc. But how do we know if it matches what came from beneath pre split or not??? That is the question.

The scientific model of the universe explains all the data in a parsimonious fashion.

PO science imagined forward or backward is exceptionally complicated. Like trying to rewind present processes all the way backwards, stuffing the entire universe in a tiny, pepper speck sized hot soup!!! (At one time early on, in the BB myth)

Your convoluted fantasy fails to explain the data no matter how you twist it as we have seen over and over now. It is your myth that is busted.

It offers a parsimonious, simple, and clear explanation that fits the evidence, and the bible, and the known spiritual. The end of your age of myths is almost at hand! I kid you not.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

We are here to experience life, and learn lessons. Some lessons are deep dark ones, that come from real tough times, and sufferings. Some of the best lessons, perhaps. Even Jesus learned from the things He suffered here.
If we are careless, and disobey, and don't follow the rules, we could get hurt. That is something maybe many of us need to learn. Did the Father step in in the garden of Gethsemene, and save Jesus? No. Did Jesus raise His pinky, to give the secret signal to the legions of angry, powerful angels at the ready to come in and wipe out the punks killing the son of God?? No. Just becaus God knows what will be, even writes about in in prophesy to remove any doubt hundreds of years earlier, doesn't mean He is going to take over here before the time, and end the reign of man.


He gave us the real choice, we determined what went on, not Him, by our choice He allowed us to make. Adam and Eve, some suggest were closer to God after they got the boot, than before! They started to realize they needed God, and that He was right.



He limits Himself to our choices, such is the incredible power of free will. Not some cheap gift.

You can blather all you want about free will but you still lose the original argument. You said that God intended for Adam to eat the from the tree of life. If that is true then God must not have known that Adam would disobey Him and get kicked out of the Garden which would mean that God is not omnipotent.

They wouldn't worry, that is my point. God has one begotten Son, and many sons.

So He got the other sons without begetting them? They were unbegotten sons?

There was some sort of spiritual level, apparently in the pre split years not too far away. Remember they tried to build a tower up to it, that is how close it was.

You think the supposed tower of Babel was actually going to reach heaven. Good grief! Even after all this time I didn't realize how far out you really are.

Looking at the sky now, being seperate from the spiritual, that seems patently ridiculous.

It is and it was.

It is, ..now. What forces were in place up in that level? Spirits can't be pulled by physical only forces. Obviously on the ground, we had forces at work that governed physical things. What about up there in the spirit level? Way up past that was where the water was, so we might assume that gravity in any uniform way we know it, and present state did not apply there.
How about deep under the earth? We know that is a place where, even today, spirits live. Did the physical only laws extend down there as well? Who knows?
The whole thing, really is a deep study. We hardly touch the surface, so to speak.

You left the surface of reality behind long ago.

Whoah. It shows that the far away SN is in the PO state, as the rest of the universe. It does not show it always was or will be by any wild stretch of the imagination. A simple far away fallacy. Distance was not as limiting then, as it is now.

Sorry but in your myth SN 1987A must be post split because of the decay of cobalt so the light from it must go at the normal speed of light so it must be 168,000 light years away and the light must have taken 168,000 years to get here. You have failed on this one like on so many others.

In other words, your little motor is set to whir around looking at everything as it now is, and works, and try to rewind the clock on that basis! But first, I repeat FIRST, you need to prove, support, and demonstrate that the past was in the present state. Otherwise, you are just assuming, assuming assuming.

As explained the ratios were here already, but undewent a process, and state change. So, like a factory that is retooled, with new owners, the employess, daughters, etc are more or less the same, but the factory now produces death and decay, rather than a stable forever matter universe.

As usual this makes no sense at all and does not explain why those ratios of so many different sets of isotopes in so many different sets of rocks give consistent radiometric dates. You have failed again.

Do you have any evidence that the state required for present reations was the same, or will be in the future?? I don't think so.

The evidence that is was the same has been presented. There is no reason to think that physical laws will change significantly in the future but that is not at all relevant to the discussion.

God is coming to this earth, and it is going to be very very different, as will be the city that lands, the whole heavens, or universe, and our bodies, just as His was spiritual and physical!! And I am looking forward to a lot of loving friends forever there, including a lot of real gorgeous gals. Remember, that they get to pick the age they want to remain at. Maybe many will chose to be 'in their twenties' others, the thirties. Who knows, mabye some might prefer to look like a granny?

Don't hold your breath but this is also irrelevant to the discussion.

Well, thanks for your little stab at merged universe atomic reactions, etc. I have to say I just don't know how it works exactly there. But anything is possible now.

So if anything is possible in your fantasy universe why are you failing so miserably in trying to use you different past to actually explain the data we are discussing?

I don't know anything about spiritons. I simply used the name to denote the addition of the spiritual with the physical.

It is a term you used before. It just shows how far out your goofy ideas are as if further demonstration were needed.

Well, you know, they say lightning can cause some reactions.For example, if we had a new planet with the right rocks, and compounds, etc, and bombarded it with lightning, I think it would produce water. Just a thought. But, a lot of things were very different, yes. Many things, likely quite similar as well.

What?

Right. It doesn't match industrial stuff, or volcanic orgins, etc. But how do we know if it matches what came from beneath pre split or not??? That is the question.

How do we know it doesn't match the feces of invisible unicorns?

PO science imagined forward or backward is exceptionally complicated. Like trying to rewind present processes all the way backwards, stuffing the entire universe in a tiny, pepper speck sized hot soup!!! (At one time early on, in the BB myth)

There are data supporting the big bang but that is not the subject of this discussion. Mainstream science provides a parsimonious explanation of the earth's geology and of the data from SN 1987A that we have discussed. You have to twist you myth into ever more convoluted scenarios and still fail to explain the data.

It offers a parsimonious, simple, and clear explanation that fits the evidence, and the bible, and the known spiritual.

There is nothing simple about the nonsense you spout except that it is simply absurd.

The end of your age of myths is almost at hand! I kid you not.

Don't hold your breath. People have been waiting a long time for the second coming, which I assume is what you mean and I predict that they will be awaiting long after we are gone. You can't prove me wrong.

 

[Contracelsus]

The sons of God married earth girls? Who was the mother of these sons of God?

Oh I know! I bet it was Asherah!

http://www.yahwehism.com/html/yahweh-samaria.html

 

[dad]

You can blather all you want about free will but you still lose the original argument. You said that God intended for Adam to eat the from the tree of life. If that is true then God must not have known that Adam would disobey Him and get kicked out of the Garden which would mean that God is not omnipotent.

We are a demo for the universe. All can see how we had the real choice in the garden. They also can see we muffed it. And the extreme bad results of the disobedience. Just because He may know the future, does not mean real free will does not exist. It was set up to go either way, according to the choice of man.

So He got the other sons without begetting them? They were unbegotten sons?

Yes.

You think the supposed tower of Babel was actually going to reach heaven. Good grief! Even after all this time I didn't realize how far out you really are. It is and it was. You left the surface of reality behind long ago.

You assume that the men there were crazy to build the tower. Realizing theat the spiritual was very near, I realize they were not. Again, you just base reality on sameness. But that is a reality doomed to be drastically changed, cause the universe will change.

Sorry but in your myth SN 1987A must be post split because of the decay of cobalt so the light from it must go at the normal speed of light so it must be 168,000 light years away and the light must have taken 168,000 years to get here. You have failed on this one like on so many others.

No, it does not have to be post split! There are a number of ways it could easily work out, the one I already posited. That is, that the information, in the light could have been carried to earth in the still merged space between in the split process. There are other possibilities as well! Let's face it, if the universe really was different, the rest is elementary!

As usual this makes no sense at all and does not explain why those ratios of so many different sets of isotopes in so many different sets of rocks give consistent radiometric dates. You have failed again.

Yes it does. The ratios of material were already there. The old relationship was different, the process went towards lasting forever. Now, the same ratio of materials are doing things PO, like decaying.

The evidence that is was the same has been presented. There is no reason to think that physical laws will change significantly in the future but that is not at all relevant to the discussion.

It is relevant. Science claims things about the future based on that faulty premise. Bad things. Just the same way they claim things about the deep past. Bad things.

So if anything is possible in your fantasy universe why are you failing so miserably in trying to use you different past to actually explain the data we are discussing?

Some of us are actually interested in the truth. The data has been misused against people of faith, and I'd like to see the tables drastically forever turned.

It is a term you used before. It just shows how far out your goofy ideas are as if further demonstration were needed.

If the spiritual was together with the physical, using a word like spiriton really is pretty appropriate to get the general idea across of how different it will be.

What?

Ha. I was actually thinking of another thread somewhere the topic was brought up. Come to think of it, it may have been the atmosphere, not the water I was thinking of. But, I am sure there could be some reactions that could make water as well.
For example reverse electrolysis? Anyhow, here is something on the atmosphere, or a major component of it.

"diazotrophic (nitrogen-fixing) microorganisms has been estimated to be 1011 kilograms per year, about 60% of Earth's newly fixed nitrogen. Lightning and ultraviolet radiation fix another 15%; the other 25% is fixed by industrial processes. The industrial process for nitrogen fixation devised by Fritz Haber in 1910 is still being used in fertilizer factories."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=stryer.section.3337

There are data supporting the big bang but that is not the subject of this discussion. Mainstream science provides a parsimonious explanation of the earth's geology and of the data from SN 1987A that we have discussed. You have to twist you myth into ever more convoluted scenarios and still fail to explain the data.

I can see why you would want to avoid talking of stuffing the universe into a speck, when we are talking myths! Fine.

There is nothing simple about the nonsense you spout except that it is simply absurd. Don't hold your breath. People have been waiting a long time for the second coming, which I assume is what you mean and I predict that they will be awaiting long after we are gone. You can't prove me wrong.

Of course when the King returns to reign, the age of myths will be gone. But, since the myths are already busted right here and now as we speak, I think it is possible the end of the time of Myths is fairly close at hand.

.. ..

 

[Contracelsus]

We are here to experience life, and learn lessons.

Not YOU, Dad! You are resistant to learning ANYTHING! Let alone anything about your own faith!

Did Jesus raise His pinky, to give the secret signal to the legions of angry, powerful angels at the ready to come in and wipe out the punks killing the son of God??

So the Angels were AGAINST God's plan???? Didn't they know that God wanted Jesus to die for our sins??? Are all angels renegade angels????

He limits Himself to our choices, such is the incredible power of free will. Not some cheap gift.

STOP THE PRESSES! God < Free will! OUR will is greater than God's will!!!!

YIKES!!!

Every day is a fresh assault on Christianity by Dad! Soon he will defeat it by a million little cuts!

They wouldn't worry, that is my point. God has one begotten Son, and many sons.

What language do you speak? Apparently no human language. Is this some sort of Godel-theorem simulator you are running?

(Oops, I referred to a name Dad will have to declare is a "nobody" and then insult Kurt Godel, and then proudly claim he doesn't know him because Kurt Godel hasn't been featured on a cereal box or TV like Einstein and Mother Teresa, the only historical people Dad seems to know)

There was some sort of spiritual level, apparently in the pre split years not too far away. Remember they tried to build a tower up to it, that is how close it was.

What part of ALLEGORY does Dad not get? Well, clearly ALL OF IT.

www.m-w.com

Looking at the sky now, being seperate from the spiritual, that seems patently ridiculous.

Yup.

How about deep under the earth? We know that is a place where, even today, spirits live.

Put down the pills.

The whole thing, really is a deep study. We hardly touch the surface, so to speak.

But you earlier declared that if you had to learn complex stuff it wasn't worth the effort. The value of spritual stuff to you is that it can be explained to a child. I thought you LIKED simple child-like explanations! This deep stuff doesn't sound like you!

Distance was not as limiting then, as it is now.

how so, Einstein-avatar-guy? Can you give us a formula for time-dilation or length dilation? Go ahead, you've already got the Einstein picture...do you know anything deeper than a picture of Einstein? (CHALLENGE CHALLENGE CHALLENGE)

As explained the ratios were here already, but undewent a process, and state change.

Back it up with ONE example of a state change. Back it up with a MODERN DAY example of ANY PHYSICAL PROCESS in depth.

I grow weary of hearing you throw around words and phrases that are ripped from a science book but you never show any sort of science understanding. You quote chemistry stuff like it has something to do with your point, but you don't even understand the simple MODERN PO physics and chemistry.

Show some knowledge about SOMETHING, ANYTHING. You don't even care about your own christian faith, let alone science, otherwise you'd pony up SOMETHING once in a while.

Even if you could muster a QUOTE from someone it would likely be off-topic (when you usually do it has nothing to do with the point you are ostensibly trying to make)

Well, thanks for your little stab at merged universe atomic reactions, etc. I have to say I just don't know how it works exactly there. But anything is possible now.

Dad, can you please even explain a SPLIT universe chemical reaction? Do you have ANY idea what the chemists and quantum physicists know about today? I begin to doubt that you do! I bet if someone were to quote Shroedinger to you you'd call him a whiner and a big zero and a nobody as you have the countless figures of Christianity that have been mentioned to you in other posts.

REmember Dad, you have to KNOW something to pontificate about something. All you do is the latter.

I don't know anything about spiritons. I simply used the name to denote the addition of the spiritual with the physical.

Dad, you are just throwing around words to sound big and important and hide you abysmal lack of training in ANY of these fields, including christianity!

Well, you know, they say lightning can cause some reactions.For example, if we had a new planet with the right rocks, and compounds, etc, and bombarded it with lightning, I think it would produce water.

Is that where water on the early earth came from? Or did it come from magmatic processes? Gosh.

The end of your age of myths is almost at hand! I kid you not.

As loathe as I am to quote Freidrich Neitzsche I must do so now:

"There are preachers of death: and the earth is full of those to whom renunciation of life must be preached."

You obviously hate this current world so much you live in a dreamland of constant hope for a magnificent miraculous world to come. But it won't come in your lifetime anymore than it came in my grandma's lifetime and she desperately yearned for it.

But in the end it is what we do to make the CURRENT world better for everyone that shows our appreciation of God's gift of the world to us. It doesn't come from denying its grandeur and ginning up goofy childlike fantasies to match allegorical stories and it doesn't come from dreaming about f*****g a dead Marylin Monroe, and it certainly doesn't come from some sort of sexist hedonistic food-fest you've described heaven to be.

It comes from taking care of the least among us.

 

[Contracelsus]

Some of us are actually interested in the truth. The data has been misused against people of faith, and I'd like to see the tables drastically forever turned.

Dad, you don't know much about the history of the Christian faith, why would anyone think you have a grasp on the "truth"? If you cared one iota about the history of how the CHristian faith has been used and formed and how people of faith have been abused by misused data outside of the Book of Acts you'd probably have to have picked up a book about it.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

We are a demo for the universe. All can see how we had the real choice in the garden. They also can see we muffed it. And the extreme bad results of the disobedience. Just because He may know the future, does not mean real free will does not exist. It was set up to go either way, according to the choice of man.

So God didn't know which way it would go? So now you are claiming that God was not omnipotent. OK. I am sure it will be news to many people on this forum that you don't consider God omnipotent afer all.

Yes.

Maybe instead of unbegotten sons I should have said misbegotten sons.

You assume that the men there were crazy to build the tower.

I assume that anyone who thinks that a tower to heaven could have been built at any time might well be crazy .

Realizing theat the spiritual was very near, I realize they were not. Again, you just base reality on sameness. But that is a reality doomed to be drastically changed, cause the universe will change.

I assume that story was told to make a point about defying God and in an attempt to explain the origin of different human languages. Even if people were sufficiently deluded by their religious beliefs to think they could build a tower to heaven I don't think there was any possibility they could have succeeded. That is your delusion.

No, it does not have to be post split! There are a number of ways it could easily work out, the one I already posited. That is, that the information, in the light could have been carried to earth in the still merged space between in the split process. There are other possibilities as well! Let's face it, if the universe really was different, the rest is elementary!

Let's face it, SN 1987A falsifies your myth and all your desperate handwaving hasn't helped.

Yes it does. The ratios of material were already there. The old relationship was different, the process went towards lasting forever. Now, the same ratio of materials are doing things PO, like decaying.

You still have not even begun to explain how the ratios of so many different sets of isotopes of "already there" just happen to give concordant dates for many different sets of rocks. Just saying they were already there explains nothing and is merely another illustration of the failure of your myth.

It is relevant. Science claims things about the future based on that faulty premise. Bad things. Just the same way they claim things about the deep past. Bad things.

Science makes certain predictions about the future, that is true. If we couldn't predict orbits for example, we couldn't send spacecraft to other planets. What is so bad about that? Still it has no relevance to the discussion here.

Some of us are actually interested in the truth. The data has been misused against people of faith, and I'd like to see the tables drastically forever turned.

How would someone as lost in delusion and ignorant of science as you are ever hope to recognize the truth about scientific data?

If the spiritual was together with the physical, using a word like spiriton really is pretty appropriate to get the general idea across of how different it will be.

It gets across the idea that you are completely lost in your absurd myth.

Ha. I was actually thinking of another thread somewhere the topic was brought up. Come to think of it, it may have been the atmosphere, not the water I was thinking of. But, I am sure there could be some reactions that could make water as well.
For example reverse electrolysis? Anyhow, here is something on the atmosphere, or a major component of it.

Huh?

"diazotrophic (nitrogen-fixing) microorganisms has been estimated to be 1011 kilograms per year, about 60% of Earth's newly fixed nitrogen. Lightning and ultraviolet radiation fix another 15%; the other 25% is fixed by industrial processes. The industrial process for nitrogen fixation devised by Fritz Haber in 1910 is still being used in fertilizer factories."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=stryer.section.3337

Do you even know what fixing nitrogen is?

I can see why you would want to avoid talking of stuffing the universe into a speck, when we are talking myths! Fine.

We can discuss the evidence for the big bang if you want but I don't think it is relevant to this thread. How does your myth explain the expanding universe and microwave background radiation?

Of course when the King returns to reign, the age of myths will be gone. But, since the myths are already busted right here and now as we speak, I think it is possible the end of the time of Myths is fairly close at hand.

Your myth is certainly busted and like I said I don't recommend you hold your breath until the return of the king. Unless you mean the movie of the same name that is.

 

[Morcova]

If I did something in that case, if I were God, wouldn't I have to take away the free will? If He steps in for the one, He pretty well needs to step right in for all.

Hint: A loving parent, (much less a loving god) would have done just that.

 

[dad]

Not YOU, Dad! You are resistant to learning ANYTHING! Let alone anything about your own faith!

Don't get sore cause you are unable to begin to teach. Learn your stuff, then come back when you are a bit more up to snuff.

So the Angels were AGAINST God's plan???? Didn't they know that God wanted Jesus to die for our sins??? Are all angels renegade angels????

Jesus could have changed His mind. The angels were ready, in case.

STOP THE PRESSES! God < Free will! OUR will is greater than God's will!!!!

He let's us have our way a lot.

Every day is a fresh assault on Christianity by Dad! Soon he will defeat it by a million little cuts!

With champions like you, need they fear?

What language do you speak? Apparently no human language. Is this some sort of Godel-theorem simulator you are running?

I need a gibberish to english translator for your material.

(Oops, I referred to a name Dad will have to declare is a "nobody" and then insult Kurt Godel, and then proudly claim he doesn't know him because Kurt Godel hasn't been featured on a cereal box or TV like Einstein and Mother Teresa, the only historical people Dad seems to know)

Hey, you can talk about any pipsqueak in the fame department you like.

What part of ALLEGORY does Dad not get? Well, clearly ALL OF IT.

Why, what part of it has some relevance?

But you earlier declared that if you had to learn complex stuff it wasn't worth the effort.

I did? Maybe you can give us the quote. I suppose it depends on whar complex stuff you are talking about.

how so, Einstein-avatar-guy? Can you give us a formula for time-dilation or length dilation? Go ahead, you've already got the Einstein picture...do you know anything deeper than a picture of Einstein? (CHALLENGE CHALLENGE CHALLENGE)

Einstein's ideas are mickey mouse compared to the full reality of the true state of creation. No one was talking about how PO time and length 'dilates', so we don't need to have fomulas for that. Try to focus.

Back it up with ONE example of a state change. Back it up with a MODERN DAY example of ANY PHYSICAL PROCESS in depth.

We don't back up things from the merged eternal state, with present physical processes, do we? Think before you type, do us all a favor.

I grow weary of hearing you throw around words and phrases that are ripped from a science book but you never show any sort of science understanding. You quote chemistry stuff like it has something to do with your point, but you don't even understand the simple MODERN PO physics and chemistry.

Hey, guy, anytime you want to talk turkey here, present some evidence, and we can look at it.

Show some knowledge about SOMETHING, ANYTHING. You don't even care about your own christian faith, let alone science, otherwise you'd pony up SOMETHING once in a while.

I am not here to try and inmpress you, as foreign a concept as that may sound to you. If you have some relevant proofs or evidence to pony up, fine, be nice, and civilized, and give it your best shot. Or maybe you have already. Ha.

Even if you could muster a QUOTE from someone it would likely be off-topic (when you usually do it has nothing to do with the point you are ostensibly trying to make)

Hey, you, get off a my cloud.

Dad, can you please even explain a SPLIT universe chemical reaction?

Well, we might look at adding the spiritual to water, and coming up with the best wine you could think of. Jesus turned the water into wine, and got a great reaction. He even did it in a PO envrioment. Imagine what we can do in heaven! Any tough questions??

Do you have ANY idea what the chemists and quantum physicists know about today?

If there is some tid bit there you stumbled on you think is quasi relevant, do tell.

I begin to doubt that you do! I bet if someone were to quote Shroedinger to you you'd call him a whiner and a big zero and a nobody as you have the countless figures of Christianity that have been mentioned to you in other posts.

I doubt it. Ever hear of Google? Any child can look up anyone that sounds interesting in a New York minute. So far, nothing you say is interesting, though. Work on that.

REmember Dad, you have to KNOW something to pontificate about something. All you do is the latter.

You sound obsessed. If you know something, say it, otherwise, why go on in some sort of sissyfit?

Dad, you are just throwing around words to sound big and important and hide you abysmal lack of training in ANY of these fields, including christianity!

See what I mean??

Is that where water on the early earth came from? Or did it come from magmatic processes? Gosh.

I don't know, what would you say? The Jolly Green Giant tossed a lot of snowballs?

As loathe as I am to quote Freidrich Neitzsche I must do so now:

Hey, now there is someone I heard about. I think he what, died a madman, barking like a dog on all fours?

"There are preachers of death: and the earth is full of those to whom renunciation of life must be preached."

Doesn't do a thing for me. Not even sure what the looney tune was getting at there. But thanks for the effort.

You obviously hate this current world so much you live in a dreamland of constant hope for a magnificent miraculous world to come. But it won't come in your lifetime anymore than it came in my grandma's lifetime and she desperately yearned for it.

OK, dark prophesies. Fine. Woof woof.

But in the end it is what we do to make the CURRENT world better for everyone that shows our appreciation of God's gift of the world to us. It doesn't come from denying its grandeur and ginning up goofy childlike fantasies to match allegorical stories and it doesn't come from dreaming about f*****g a dead Marylin Monroe, and it certainly doesn't come from some sort of sexist hedonistic food-fest you've described heaven to be.

The people in heaven, like Jesus, are anything but dead! One way to make things better is to get saved, so we can live forever. Is that OK with you?

It comes from taking care of the least among us.

Right, good works are great. Love is the law, and the great commandment. That has what to do with the debate in a science thread on creation?

 

[dad]

Hint: A loving parent, (much less a loving god) would have done just that.

A loving parent would fry out our brain, and ability to chose, and have us as obedient little robots??

 

[dad]

So God didn't know which way it would go? So now you are claiming that God was not omnipotent. OK. I am sure it will be news to many people on this forum that you don't consider God omnipotent afer all.

Knowing something, and stopping it from happening are two different things. He set it up so it could have gone either way, all depending on our choice. Limiting Himself to our free will does not mean He is weak. It simply means there are rules that He has set up, and He doesn't override them wily nily.

Maybe instead of unbegotten sons I should have said misbegotten sons.

Angels were referred to as the sons of God, yes.

I assume that anyone who thinks that a tower to heaven could have been built at any time might well be crazy .

I know you do, but that is all you do, assume. I don't assume the bible is a lie for no apparent, real, reason.

I assume that story was told to make a point about defying God and in an attempt to explain the origin of different human languages. Even if people were sufficiently deluded by their religious beliefs to think they could build a tower to heaven I don't think there was any possibility they could have succeeded. That is your delusion.

That is you, in total ignorance, second guessing what went on. In reality, you have no idea. You also have nothing you can say about God walking and chatting with man, angels marrying earth girls, or the spiritual level being near the sky level at the time. All you can do, is look how it now works.

Let's face it, SN 1987A falsifies your myth and all your desperate handwaving hasn't helped.

No, it isn't even a small challenge, let's face it, if there really was a different universe, having some light get here faster in the seperation process is nothing.

You still have not even begun to explain how the ratios of so many different sets of isotopes of "already there" just happen to give concordant dates for many different sets of rocks.

I can't see how you missed it, I covered that. The ratios of material were there. The process was sort of 'inverted' so the materials, in the ratio they were in started doing a new job of existing in the PO state, and decaying.

Just saying they were already there explains nothing and is merely another illustration of the failure of your myth.

No more than saying they wern't just because you believe a same past myth.

Science makes certain predictions about the future, that is true.

Yes, like the past, solely based on the present state, and, like the past, nothing but assumed. Nothing.

If we couldn't predict orbits for example, we couldn't send spacecraft to other planets. What is so bad about that? Still it has no relevance to the discussion here.

That has to do with the present, and recent past, and near future, that is real science, and not what we are talking about.

How would someone as lost in delusion and ignorant of science as you are ever hope to recognize the truth about scientific data?

Scientific data has nothing to do with it, since there is no science for a same past or future!

It gets across the idea that you are completely lost in your absurd myth.

Believing in a real spiritual in the future, and past is so established, and well known, it is absurd to stick our head in the sand and try to ignore it.

Do you even know what fixing nitrogen is?

You know, I should have tried to remember the discussion better. That has to do with taking it from the atmosphere, not, as I was thinking, the other way round. Ha. My bad.

We can discuss the evidence for the big bang if you want but I don't think it is relevant to this thread. How does your myth explain the expanding universe and microwave background radiation?

Probably split effects. Even possibly the redshifting.

..I don't recommend you hold your breath until the return of the king. Unless you mean the movie of the same name that is.

All these things are like little foretastes of the real deal. I liked tha part in one of those movies, where Gandalf the white came to rescue the almost defeated armies, at daybreak, dressed in white, on a white horse, riding down the steep hill, like as if from the sky.