The Preterist Gap

[CharismaticLady]

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

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There will be a future 7 year period for the Jews, and unsaved Gentiles will have a strong delusion placed on them. That period is 7 years. The GT could be the whole of that time, or half of that time.

 

[Christian Gedge]

The "times" of the Gentiles, and the "fullness" of the Gentiles are two different things. Details matter.

First one is bad where Israel is persecuted by Gentiles: the times of the Gentiles.

And the second is good as in Romans 11 where Gentiles are being added to the Church: the fullness of the Gentiles. But that is only until the last seven years before Christ. Then the partial blindness is lifted off Israel, and it will be the unsaved Gentiles that will all receive a strong delusion from God.

'Fullness' usually arrives at the end of 'times.' For example Jesus said of Israels 'times', "The time is fulfilled." (Mark 1:15)

Admittedly, the 'Times of the Gentiles' were not easy on the Jews. But they were synonymous with the era that God has allocated to Gentiles to be saved. I believe they started in AD 34, and end as you say.

 

[CharismaticLady]

'Fullness' usually arrives at the end of 'times.' For example Jesus said of Israels 'times', "The time is fulfilled." (Mark 1:15)

Admittedly, the 'Times of the Gentiles' were not easy on the Jews. But they were synonymous with the era that God has allocated to Gentiles to be saved. I believe they started in AD 34, and end as you say.

When you read the "times" in context, and the "fullness" in context, one is bad times, and the other good.

 

[BABerean2]

There will be a future 7 year period for the Jews, and unsaved Gentiles will have a strong delusion placed on them. That period is 7 years. The GT could be the whole of that time, or half of that time.

Can you show us your 7 year period in scripture?

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[DavidPT]

Can you show us your 7 year period in scripture?

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When the 2Ws are testifying, that's 3 1/2 years. When the beast in Revelation 13 reigns, that is also 3 1/2 years. The question is, is it speaking of two periods of time where one follows the other? If it is, wouldn't that add up to 7 years?

As far as that period of time being for the Jews, can't say I'm seeing that in the texts involved above. So while I might agree there is 1 week remaining of the 70 weeks, I don't agree it has anything to do with unbelieving Jews though. We have to keep in mind, assuming a gap in the 70 weeks. If the 70th week is at the end of this age, and that the first 69 weeks involved the first coming, well by the time of the end of the age we would be well into the church age. IOW the 70th week would now be involving the church. In Revelation 13 the beast is waging war on the saints, IOW the church, and not on unbelieving Jews instead.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Can you show us your 7 year period in scripture?

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The seven years is the one week in Daniel 9:27. The middle is 3 1/2 years. Daniel 9:27 also fits the 7 year Jewish revolt from 66 AD to 73 AD with the middle being 70 AD. But Daniel 8 shows another ruler (little horn) out of Greece, and in history we find the first Jewish revolt at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes IV and the Maccabean revolt, 160 BC to 167 BC, with the defiling of the temple close to 164 BC of his death. This repeat of 7 year Jewish revolts shows paradigms. So even though Daniel 9 could be fulfilled in 66 AD to 73 AD, the same thing happening in Daniel 8 shows us that is not the end, but foreshadows.

And with Romans 11 showing a future salvation for national unsaved Israel, along with 1 and 2 Thes. showing a bit of the future second coming with the strong delusion on the unsaved, putting all these together with the "fullness of the saved Gentiles," again of Romans 11, this is what I have come to believe on my own. Besides Revelation 12 and 13 shows national Israel being hidden for 42 months and I believe being saved, at which time the Antichrist is attacking the Gentile Christians, the other offspring. And then he attacks both for another 42 months. There is a third 42 months mentioned, and by deleting the first where Israel is hidden, that third 42 months makes 2 periods for Israel having tribulation. After all the one week in Daniel 9 has to do with Israel only.

cc: @DavidPT

 

[charsan]

Hey. So, some partial-preterists understand much of Revelation to have been fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Another approach is to see Revelation largely as a spiritual metaphor for both the individual Christian life, and what will happen to the Church (symbolized by Jerusalem), in the end times.

That is kind of where I sit. I see Revelation as symbolic not as really going to happen and written to the believers in the 1st century not to believers in the modern times. I don't see any end times in Revelations

 

[CharismaticLady]

That is kind of where I sit. I see Revelation as symbolic not as really going to happen and written to the believers in the 1st century not to believers in the modern times. I don't see any end times in Revelations

So we have a new heaven and a new earth in the first century? When was the lake of fire? What did it symbolize in the first century? When did sin end and no more repentance, as in Revelation 22:11?

 

[charsan]

I consider symbolic and for hope for the 1st century Christians undergoing persecutions.

 

[DavidPT]

After all the one week in Daniel 9 has to do with Israel only.

This is true, yet Israel has transitioned into the church since then.

And speaking of Romans 11.

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

There is no other way, other than the above in verse 23, for them to be graffed back into the good olive tree they were cutoff from because of disbelief. Each of them have to freely choose to believe on their own, the same way the rest of us had to, otherwise their fate is no different than a Gentile unbeliever's fate is.

 

[CharismaticLady]

This is true, yet Israel has transitioned into the church since then.

And speaking of Romans 11.

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

There is no other way, other than the above in verse 23, for them to be graffed back into the good olive tree they were cutoff from because of disbelief. Each of them have to freely choose to believe on their own, the same way the rest of us had to, otherwise their fate is no different than a Gentile unbeliever's fate is.

Israel will be grafted back in during their last week.

Romans 11:
that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

 

[ripple the car]

I consider symbolic and for hope for the 1st century Christians undergoing persecutions.

Interesting. I view it as both already fulfilled, in parts, as an ongoing spiritual metaphor, and as futurist, but again, largely symbolic, not literal. I no longer expect actual locusts with women's hair and lions' teeth to pour out of the earth; they must represent something.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I consider symbolic and for hope for the 1st century Christians undergoing persecutions.

The Book of Revelation is prophecy

Therefore Revelation 2 and 3 are also prophecy and point to the end of the world, not the end of the 1st century, and leads up to the Tribulation. There are seven church ages. We are either in the age of Philadelphia, or maybe even Laodecia.

 

[mkgal1]

Some of us insist Luke 21:25-28 happened during 70 AD.
I believe otherwise.

Feel free to share your thoughts on the subject.

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It's off topic in this thread. Maybe begin a new thread?

 

[charsan]

The Book of Revelation is prophecy

Therefore Revelation 2 and 3 are also prophecy and point to the end of the world, not the end of the 1st century, and leads up to the Tribulation. There are seven church ages. We are either in the age of Philadelphia, or maybe even Laodecia.

I will politely disagree with you

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There will be a future 7 year period for the Jews, and unsaved Gentiles will have a strong delusion placed on them. That period is 7 years. The GT could be the whole of that time, or half of that time.

No. It was future for the 1st century Jews prior to 70ad.

Futurists are implying that Jesus was a False Prophet by putting Matt 24:6 2000yrs or more in the future instead of 1st century.

It is Futurists interpretation of Scriptures that keep the Jews blinded to this very day and perhaps even for another 2000yrs.

Matt 24:6 is talking about the 7 yrs Jewish Wars starting in 66AD [Jewish Rebels takeover Jerusalem and Masada]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:6 Wars rumors of Wars

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>
==================================
Ezekiel and Hosea mention it:

Eze 20:38 - “I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Hos 5:2 - The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.

This verse in Dan 8 could also be talking about the 1st century Jewish Rebels?

Dan 8:23 - “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

VISUAL TIMELINE OF THE ROMAN-JEWISH WAR
Including The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70

TRACKING THE FIRST JEWISH REVOLT FROM A MILITARY POINT OF VIEW
POV: Administrative | Factional | Military | Theological

"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
Masada 73AD
======================

 

[BABerean2]

The seven years is the one week in Daniel 9:27.

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.
.............................................
Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.............................................................

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

Do you have to ignore the New Covenant to make your viewpoint work?

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[CharismaticLady]

I will politely disagree with you

That's okay.

 

[mkgal1]

The seven years is the one week in Daniel 9:27.

I agree with you. As is shown in this illustration that I shared earlier - I believe the seven years began with the ministry of Jesus (from His anointing at His baptism) until 7 years had passed (allowing for the Gospel to continue to be preached in Jerusalem....honoring the promise that 490 years were spent on "confirming the covenant with Daniel's people"). Once Stephen was martyred - Jesus' followers were purged from Jerusalem - spreading the Gospel throughout all of the "world" (the Roman kingdom).

 

[mkgal1]

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.
.............................................
Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.............................................................

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

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BABerean - you ask this question often, but I'm not grasping what you're getting at? What point are you attempting to make with this? You presented this as an argument to what CL posted - but your commentary agrees with what she posted. So I'm confused.