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The Preservation of the Holy Scriptures

PrincetonGuy

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So God doesn't want you to know exactly what He said, He wants you to make decide for yourself what He most likely said?

Since His Word, according to you, is not preserved, why in the would should I accept your guess at what His Word is as believable? You are trashing everybody in the world except yourself and the original authors, and why do you even think they put God's Word down without error in the originals? You are saying we flat out do not have the Word of God because of error in copies. You are wrong. We have God's Word...well, I have it, I'm sorry you seem to think you can't have it.
I believe the truth instead of the willful lies and distortions that characterize the KJO movement. If anyone could produce even one very little and seemingly insignificant bit of evidence that God has preserved his word in the King James translation of the Bible, I would concede the existence of that evidence—but in all the years that I have been reading KJO propaganda, I have not come across such evidence. Wishful thinking contrary to reality is not evidence for the claim that God has preserved his word in the King James translation of the Bible, but it is evidence of something else. Telling people that they are wrong when ALL of the relevant data supports their conclusions rather than those of their detractors falls short of reason.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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I see some value in your suggestion.

To me it is evident that whenever God has spoken to man His word has the desired effect that He wanted it to have. For some it brought conviction, for some condemnation, for some salvation, depending on how it was received. However, our discussion here seems more limited.

We do not in fact have ALL The words God ever inspired man to say available to us today. The Scripture speaks of various prophets in the Old and New testament that we do not have all the words they prophesied. So it cannot mean that every word ever inspired is preserved in some way we have access to. We do not.

It seems in this discussion we are particularly talking about the (mostly) agreed upon canon of Scripture. The Scriptures themselves went through the process of being recognized as Canon. Now I think that the inspiration in them was recognizable enough that there was little doubt in most cases in the NT, though a couple books were debated. So in one sense the canon and the process that brought it about is tied to this topic.

If the discussion is on the preservation of the canonical writings of the Old and New Testaments, then we have to look at some additional related topics.

The nature of inspiration becomes important. Some see the inspiration of the scriptures as word for word, verbal inspiration, just as God picked the words. Some do not. Some see even within verbal inspiration that some prophets use different vocabulary, often based on their own background. Hence they posit that God selected the words, but did so from the prophet' own vocabulary. Again, others don't see it this way. So the doctrine of inspiration, and particularly verbal inspiration, certainly plays into the whole question.

Was inspiration about every precise word to begin with? And was preservation to be the same?

Then we have to see if God did indeed promise to preserve these inspired writings.

Having said that, I also see value in what Princetonguy said in response to you. What does preserved mean in this instance?

If preserved only means that we have all the various manuscripts, with all the various readings, and the right ones are in there somewhere, well that is not all that helpful if what we are going for is a precise word-for-word preservation. Having all the options is not the same as having the one real, exact thing.

If someone claims the KJV is the EXACT word for word way that God wanted His word, the exact way it was originally, only in English, then should we not see these exact word for word manuscripts throughout time, only in other languages? Yet, we do not see that.

So then does preservation only mean that the whole church was muddled on God's exact words until the 1600's? Does preservation only mean that the true correct word for word Scriptures existed somewhere, but were not widely known until the 1600's? That is not really what I would think of as preservation of any real sort. And certainly it would not be a PRACTICAL preservation that allows the church to have God's word all along.

So at this point I am forced to hold on to the notion that God has preserved His word enough, throughout the whole church era, for the church to know Him, minister for Him, etc. All the readings agree in 98 percent of the Scriptures. That is preservation, though not word for word. Yet it is all the preservation that the church really had access to, and therefore the only preservation that really mattered.

If someone wants to present that God preserved things perfectly word for word throughout the whole church era, they have a lot of evidence to present that shows He did that. And they have a lot of explaining to do as to why it was not known throughout each generation which was the actually correct version. It seems the reality has been a bit messier, but no less effective in God accomplishing what He has wanted to accomplish through His people.

It may have been buried, and hid from most of the world at times, but it was never lost. I'm sorry you can't find it.
 
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tall73

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It may have been buried, and hid from most of the world at times, but it was never lost. I'm sorry you can't find it.


Can you show these other manuscripts in any language that match the readings of the KJV?

If it was only hidden from most of the world, and only at times, then you should be able to produce it from the other times, and other parts of the world.

Where are these other texts that match exactly the readings of the KJV that were preserved? Otherwise we have no reason to believe your claims.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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Are you guys trying to tell me that I am supposed to let God's Holy Spirit show me what His Word is, rather than for me to read His Word to see what His Word is? Or are you trying to tell me to let you show me what
God's Word is rather than for me to read His Word for myself? Or are you trying to tell me that nobody knows what God's Word is exactly, and each individual is supposed to try to get as close to it for themselves as they can? What exactly are you saying? It has to be that you are trying to tell me yes to at least one of my questions here if not all of them. And then I have to ask, why should I believe you? What is your authority? I don't see how you can claim to have any authority if the Author of His Word did not tell you exactly what He said so that nobody can change it fraudulently.
 
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tall73

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Are you guys trying to tell me that I am supposed to let God's Holy Spirit show me what His Word is, rather than for me to read His Word to see what His Word is?


I said nothing about either of those things in that post. I said that you claim that God preserved His word and that the KJV is identical to it, word for word, in the English language.

Therefore we are asking you to post other examples of the word of God which He preserved in other languages, which match the KJV in all its readings.

If you cannot do this then your claim about preservation is simply inaccurate. We are asking you to present the facts that support your argument.
 
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Don Maurer

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The variations in the Byzantine text type prove that the copyists made mistakes, just as did the copyists that gave us the much more accurate Alexandrian text type. The variations in the Byzantine text type also prove that God did not preserve the Scriptures in manuscripts representing the Byzantine text type, or any other text type, because God does not make mistakes—not even little mistakes.

I should be doing this in a PM, because this question is for you only. I am wondering what you believe on this issue. It is painfully obvious that no single manuscript can claim to be without error. However, would you agree that out of the 5700 greek manuscripts, the wording of the autographs exists somewhere?
 
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Don Maurer

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Please let's leave this kind of rhetoric out. We had enough of it in the previous thread. Stick to the facts at hand, because both sides makes various claims about how the proponents sound.

LOL, where do you think the language of "copy of a copy of a copy of a copy" came from?
 
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Don Maurer

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Minority readings between the Byzantine and the text of the KJV was what we had gotten to in the previous discussion which this one was based on. The KJV does not follow the bulk of the Byzantine Majority text at all points. The minority readings are especially controversial because some are promoting that the KJV is word for word an exact replica of the originals, only in English. And then they say it has been preserved.

If that is the case they should be able to find various manuscripts that have the exact same readings as the KJV in various languages. However, we don't see that.

Well, it the bibles in other languages are different it is probably due to the fact that they collated many more manuscripts then the 7 manuscripts Erasmus used. If I favored the KJV, TR, or Byzantine, your objection would be simple to answer. I would just say that the translators of the bibles into other languages choose the wrong manuscripts.

At the bottom of this issue, one must think in terms of manuscript families. Thats the real issue.
 
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tall73

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LOL, where do you think the language of "copy of a copy of a copy of a copy" came from?


The forum requires you to post about the topic, not about the posters, how they sound, their possible motivations, etc. That is how the last conversation got shut down.
 
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tall73

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Well, it the bibles in other languages are different it is probably due to the fact that they collated many more manuscripts then the 7 manuscripts Erasmus used. If I favored the KJV, TR, or Byzantine, your objection would be simple to answer. I would just say that the translators of the bibles into other languages choose the wrong manuscripts.

At the bottom of this issue, one must think in terms of manuscript families. Thats the real issue.

I would be happy to talk about manuscript families. However, the folks pushing for the Scriptures being preserved are indicating something quite different, that the originals were preserved word for word and expressed perfectly in the KJV.

Now what we have been trying to clarify is whether the KJV is the ONLY actual copy of God's word that has been preserved word for word throughout time since the originals were lost. If so, then that could hardly be called true preservation in any practical sense.
 
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Job8

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I would be happy to talk about manuscript families. However, the folks pushing for the Scriptures being preserved are indicating something quite different, that the originals were preserved word for word and expressed perfectly in the KJV.
That statement is inaccurate. The originals were preserved in a MULTITUDE OF COPIES, VERSIONS, PATRISTIC QUOTATIONS, AND LECTIONARIES made over HUNDREDS OF YEARS, and when PROPERLY COLLATED will provide the TRUE BIBLE TEXT (minor discrepancies aside).

The KJV is based upon the Received Text and the Masoretic Text and FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES it is THE BIBLE in the English language. Translations in other languages based upon the traditional texts would be equivalent to the KJV.

However, all modern versions since 1881 are based upon a CORRUPTED MINORITY TEXT, hence not true Bibles. Yet, the propaganda promoting this text as superior to the traditional text has persisted since 1881 and fooled people into thinking that the critical texts and their translations are superior. A hoax has been perpetrated and there are very few who have seen through the deception.
 
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Jack Koons

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I believe the truth instead of the willful lies and distortions that characterize the KJO movement. If anyone could produce even one very little and seemingly insignificant bit of evidence that God has preserved his word in the King James translation of the Bible, I would concede the existence of that evidence—but in all the years that I have been reading KJO propaganda, I have not come across such evidence. Wishful thinking contrary to reality is not evidence for the claim that God has preserved his word in the King James translation of the Bible, but it is evidence of something else. Telling people that they are wrong when ALL of the relevant data supports their conclusions rather than those of their detractors falls short of reason.

I do a considerable amount of talking to atheists about evolution vs. creation. If you were to simply change the topic in the above quote to defending creation, and presenting evidence for it; along with the ending comment concerning "relevant data" as being in support of evolution, I could not tell the difference between the above argument against the KJV, and the same type of argument against creation by the atheists.

This indeed is a growing problem in many disciples of study: the working of the Holy Spirit has been completely removed; and "scientific" procedure and data has taken His place.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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That statement is inaccurate. The originals were preserved in a MULTITUDE OF COPIES, VERSIONS, PATRISTIC QUOTATIONS, AND LECTIONARIES made over HUNDREDS OF YEARS, and when PROPERLY COLLATED will provide the TRUE BIBLE TEXT (minor discrepancies aside).

The KJV is based upon the Received Text and the Masoretic Text and FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES it is THE BIBLE in the English language. Translations in other languages based upon the traditional texts would be equivalent to the KJV.

However, all modern versions since 1881 are based upon a CORRUPTED MINORITY TEXT, hence not true Bibles. Yet, the propaganda promoting this text as superior to the traditional text has persisted since 1881 and fooled people into thinking that the critical texts and their translations are superior. A hoax has been perpetrated and there are very few who have seen through the deception.

Agreed
 
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tall73

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That statement is inaccurate. The originals were preserved in a MULTITUDE OF COPIES, VERSIONS, PATRISTIC QUOTATIONS, AND LECTIONARIES made over HUNDREDS OF YEARS, and when PROPERLY COLLATED will provide the TRUE BIBLE TEXT (minor discrepancies aside).

The KJV is based upon the Received Text and the Masoretic Text and FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES it is THE BIBLE in the English language. Translations in other languages based upon the traditional texts would be equivalent to the KJV.

Now here is where I need to clarify. Was there ever a Bible, in any language, "properly collated" before the KJV of the Bible?


Apart from your answer however, folks like Joe, etc. have expressed that they believe the KJV translators were guided to a word for word exact rendition, not just the correct underlying manuscripts. And it is to that notion I have been primarily responding. I recognize you do not take that position.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I believe the truth instead of the willful lies and distortions that characterize the KJO movement. If anyone could produce even one very little and seemingly insignificant bit of evidence that God has preserved his word in the King James translation of the Bible, I would concede the existence of that evidence—but in all the years that I have been reading KJO propaganda, I have not come across such evidence. Wishful thinking contrary to reality is not evidence for the claim that God has preserved his word in the King James translation of the Bible, but it is evidence of something else. Telling people that they are wrong when ALL of the relevant data supports their conclusions rather than those of their detractors falls short of reason.

I do a considerable amount of talking to atheists about evolution vs. creation. If you were to simply change the topic in the above quote to defending creation, and presenting evidence for it; along with the ending comment concerning "relevant data" as being in support of evolution, I could not tell the difference between the above argument against the KJV, and the same type of argument against creation by the atheists.

This indeed is a growing problem in many disciples of study: the working of the Holy Spirit has been completely removed; and "scientific" procedure and data has taken His place.

Jack

For the past 18 months, I have been active in a Christian apologetics ministry to a group of atheists. I know them well as individuals and the very large majority of them were formally active in fundamentalist Christian churches. Some of them served as worship leaders, youth pastors, etc. They gradually lost faith in the truth of the Bible when they were exposed to data from science that contradicted what they had been taught about the first eleven chapters of Genesis and references to those chapters in other parts of the Bible. They learned that there was a massive amount of evidence in support of the theory of evolution, and they began looking for evidence in support of what they had been taught about the Bible. Their skepticism grew rapidly as they were unable to find any such evidence that was as solid and objective as the evidence for the theory of evolution.

None of these atheists had ever attended a Protestant church that taught an academically defensible interpretation of the first eleven chapters of Genesis and references to those chapters in other parts of the Bible. Indeed, they had no awareness whatsoever that the very large majority of today’s scholars of the Old Testament taught an interpretation of Genesis that was as academically defensible as the theory of evolution and did not contradict that theory. Upon hearing these facts for the first time, they were taken aback and had to rethink their position. Unfortunately, however, because they had been taught for years what they now knew from science and other sources to be untrue, they have a distain for teachers of religion and are difficult to reach with the gospel. However, prayer for them and faith in the ministry of the Holy Spirit to renew their faith is beneficial.

The Holy Spirit did not teach them an archaic, academically indefensible interpretation of the Bible—poorly educated men and women taught them an archaic, academically indefensible interpretation of the Bible. The ministry of the Holy Spirit was quenched by archaic dogma just as severely as it typically is in scientific circles. However, in scientific circles one has the advantage of reason and objectivity, making it possible to perform such amazing feats as landing the Rover on Mars. In extreme fundamentalist churches, however, there is an absence of reason and objectivity and a vicious assault upon them both in the name of the Holy Spirit who is just as absent as are reason and objectivity.

The teaching of KJOism is a product of these same extreme fundamentalist churches, and it is totally absent where the Holy Spirit is free to minister in an atmosphere of reason and objectivity.
 
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Job8

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Apart from your answer however, folks like Joe, etc. have expressed that they believe the KJV translators were guided to a word for word exact rendition, not just the correct underlying manuscripts. And it is to that notion I have been primarily responding. I recognize you do not take that position.
This is an entirely different issue, and indeed I take that position also. The KJB translators were scrupulous in rendering a word for word translation, and went so far as to transliterate Hebrew names from the Greek instead of translating them. Thus the spellings of Hebrew names in the genealogies are actually the Greek equivalents [e.g. Ῥοβοάμ = Roboam in Mt 1:7 is Rehoboam in Hebrew (1 Chron 3:10)].

Furthermore, when the translators had to insert their own words into the text, they carefully italicised them so that the reader would be fully aware that those were not in the Hebrew and Greek texts but inserted to help complete the sentence or the thought. This was done from the very beginning (original 1611 edition) e.g. Mt 8:17 "bare our sicknesses". The literal Greek says "the diseases bore". The Greek word nosos literally means malady, and can mean either disease, sickness, or infirmity. Since sicknesses is a bit broader, the KJB has this word rather than diseases, and "our" is inserted to match Isa 53:4. There is not a single modern translation which shows the reader which words are in the original and which are not (the NASB might be the exception but it is not based on the true text anyhow).

As opposed to the "dynamic equivalence" of the NIV (which is more like a paraphrase) when you see an interlinear Greek-English Textus Receptus, you will notice the strict adherence to the actual words. Even the NKJV has departed from this.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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I do a considerable amount of talking to atheists about evolution vs. creation. If you were to simply change the topic in the above quote to defending creation, and presenting evidence for it; along with the ending comment concerning "relevant data" as being in support of evolution, I could not tell the difference between the above argument against the KJV, and the same type of argument against creation by the atheists.

This indeed is a growing problem in many disciples of study: the working of the Holy Spirit has been completely removed; and "scientific" procedure and data has taken His place.

Jack

That was the whole intention of modern versions and they have done a good job of it. The whole issue is really childishly simple. I've grown tired of long rabbit trail arguments such as the non-accredited Dr. White's.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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I said nothing about either of those things in that post. I said that you claim that God preserved His word and that the KJV is identical to it, word for word, in the English language.

Therefore we are asking you to post other examples of the word of God which He preserved in other languages, which match the KJV in all its readings.

If you cannot do this then your claim about preservation is simply inaccurate. We are asking you to present the facts that support your argument.

If you prove that God is there, I will prove that He said exactly what He said and I know what it is in my own language.

If you cannot prove that God is there, you cannot prove that He did not give me His Word in my own language;

If you can prove God is not there, then you have forever proved that He did not speak to me and say exactly what He wanted to say to me in His Word in my own language. I thank God for preserving His Word from the originals and giving it to me in my own language. If you don't think God did that for you, then I guess God didn't do it for you. I'm sorry.
 
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