The Preservation of the Holy Scriptures

[SaintJoeNow]

Can you show these other manuscripts in any language that match the readings of the KJV?

If it was only hidden from most of the world, and only at times, then you should be able to produce it from the other times, and other parts of the world.

Where are these other texts that match exactly the readings of the KJV that were preserved? Otherwise we have no reason to believe your claims.

If you don't want to believe God said exactly what He said to you in your own language so you can know exactly what He said, you don't have to believe it. I believe it. You don't. It's simple. I believe I have the Word of God, you believe God lost track of His Word and can't give it to you in English. it. Simple.

 

[tall73]

This is an entirely different issue, and indeed I take that position also. The KJB translators were scrupulous in rendering a word for word translation, and went so far as to transliterate Hebrew names from the Greek instead of translating them. Thus the spellings of Hebrew names in the genealogies are actually the Greek equivalents [e.g. Ῥοβοάμ = Roboam in Mt 1:7 is Rehoboam in Hebrew (1 Chron 3:10)].

Can you clarify:

Do you favor word-for-word translation as opposed to dynamic equivalents?
Or do you feel that each word in the KJV of the Bible was inspired?

I have no problem with word for word translation styles. I am not sure I see the evidence for each word of the KJV translation being inspired.

Once again, there are various views, and the initial conversation started out in response to the other thread. Joe, etc. believes that the translators were inspired and the KJV is a complete match for the original manuscripts, in every respect, except that it is in English. And he holds that the English word choices were inspired.

 

[tall73]

If you prove that God is there, I will prove that He said exactly what He said and I know what it is in my own language.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse


Your turn.

 

[tall73]

Joe, as simple as I can make it....did anyone from the time of the autographs being lost until the KJV have the word of God, word for word, as you claim is in the KJV?

For some reason you don't want to answer this, and I don't know why. You are talking about preservation, but refuse to explain what you mean.

 

[Cody2]

God's word was in the manuscripts and texts used to make the KJV before 1611.

 

[tall73]

God's word was in the manuscripts and texts used to make the KJV before 1611.

Thank you for being willing to answer.

So does the doctrine of preservation then mean that all of the readings were still around to be collated in 1611?

What about the people who lived from the time the autographs were lost until 1611. Did they not have it all collated together? Did they not have access to exactly what God said for all that time?

 

[Hammster]

Thank you for being willing to answer.

So does the doctrine of preservation then mean that all of the readings were still around to be collated in 1611?

What about the people who lived from the time the autographs were lost until 1611. Did they not have it all collated together? Did they not have access to exactly what God said for all that time?

We know that the Geneva bible fit basically the same criteria as is given for the KJV. But it was rejected because of footnotes.

Before then, I guess we had the dark ages.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Thank you for being willing to answer.

So does the doctrine of preservation then mean that all of the readings were still around to be collated in 1611?

What about the people who lived from the time the autographs were lost until 1611. Did they not have it all collated together? Did they not have access to exactly what God said for all that time?

The doctrine of preservation means that God preserved His Word. It does not mean everybody had it at one time completely in one place somewhere throughout history. It does not mean there was no time when it was completely hidden from mankind, lost and buried in a cave somewhere. It means God preserved it.

There was a time, I believe it was the Book of Kings, not hard to find if you try, when after a period of rebellion in the leadership, they dug up the scroll which had the Word of God on it. It had been lost, forgotten, for a long time, hid away in the temple. When the king read it, he tore his clothes and fell on his face and cried out to God in repentance.

It's really simple. The holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, and recorded God's Word exactly as God directed them to do. Scribes who copied the word worked in teams, painstakingly proofreading their work, carefully examining each other. If a piece of a page was lost somewhere in time, that did not prevent God from restoring it. Why do people think this would be hard for God to do, to keep His Word free from mistakes and purposeful changes? Many throughout history have intentionally made changes to fit their motives, intentionally injected things or removed things to suit their agendas. This is the same tactic Satan used in the garden of Eden by misquoting, changing God's Word, taking things out of context and changing what God said in order to confuse Eve. Satan does the same thing today with modern versions which have incorporated corrupt manuscripts which were rejected by Christians throughout the centuries until the ungodly men, Wescott and Hort, came along and promoted them as conveying things that were lost in the originals. The only thing those corrupt manuscipts conveyed was confusion from the devil.

Again, trying to keep it simple.

If you were there, and you saw the whole life, death, and burial of Jesus unfold, and you were able to write down everything you saw, and you knew He was God and you knew you were forgiven and saved from Hell by Him, and you knew everything you wrote down was right, wouldn't you make sure that it was passed down to people you knew to have the same faith, who had believed by their own eyes or by the testimony of others? Wouldn't you make sure that the writing was protected at all costs for future generations? That's what God did with His Word, and in many instances such is Tyndale, men gave their lives in cooperation with God to keep His Word pure. God chose special men to put His Word in writing, the prophets and apostles, and He chose special men to begin translating his word into English, men who gave their lives for the cause, and God answered the prayer of Tyndale who died for his commitment to God to translate His Word into English, as he was dying in flames being martyred, he prayed "Lord, open the King's eyes". God answered that prayer when the King of England said no to the forces who were against a new version commissioned and authorized by the King, and King James who had been established King by God commanded the authorized version to be complete, completing Tyndale's work after the devil tried to destroy it.

The issue really is childishly simple, it's a matter of faith, believing God for good reasons based on His Word.

Remember, God sets up the Kings and throws them down. Obama would not be president now if God did not want him there. We honor Obama as our president because the office is established by God. There is only one version that has been authorized by the King of England, the King over the people of the English language in his day, and there is one reason that version has changed the world and remains head and shoulders above all other versions for over 400 years....God! it's His Word in English! simple, childishly simple.


I much appreciate the dissertations of scholars who refute the dissertations of scholarly scoffers, but the issue really is not that complicated. I thank God that shorly after I got saved, a man opened the Bible and showed me in the Bible where God promised to keep His Word clean and pure and incorruptible.....and I am born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God which liveth and abideth forever! Amen.

 

[Hammster]

I much appreciate the dissertations of scholars who refute the dissertations of scholarly scoffers, but the issue really is not that complicated. I thank God that shorly after I got saved, a man opened the Bible and showed me in the Bible where God promised to keep His Word clean and pure and incorruptible.....and I am born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God which liveth and abideth forever! Amen.

The implication is that if you got "saved" by something other than the KJV, you aren't really saved because it's corrupted seed.

 

[tall73]

The doctrine of preservation means that God preserved His Word. It does not mean everybody had it at one time completely in one place somewhere throughout history. It does not mean there was no time when it was completely hidden from mankind, lost and buried in a cave somewhere. It means God preserved it.

There was a time, I believe it was the Book of Kings, not hard to find if you try, when after a period of rebellion in the leadership, they dug up the scroll which had the Word of God on it. It had been lost, forgotten, for a long time, hid away in the temple. When the king read it, he tore his clothes and fell on his face and cried out to God in repentance.

It's really simple. The holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, and recorded God's Word exactly as God directed them to do. Scribes who copied the word worked in teams, painstakingly proofreading their work, carefully examining each other. If a piece of a page was lost somewhere in time, that did not prevent God from restoring it. Why do people think this would be hard for God to do, to keep His Word free from mistakes and purposeful changes? Many throughout history have intentionally made changes to fit their motives, intentionally injected things or removed things to suit their agendas. This is the same tactic Satan used in the garden of Eden by misquoting, changing God's Word, taking things out of context and changing what God said in order to confuse Eve. Satan does the same thing today with modern versions which have incorporated corrupt manuscripts which were rejected by Christians throughout the centuries until the ungodly men, Wescott and Hort, came along and promoted them as conveying things that were lost in the originals. The only thing those corrupt manuscipts conveyed was confusion from the devil.

Again, trying to keep it simple.

If you were there, and you saw the whole life, death, and burial of Jesus unfold, and you were able to write down everything you saw, and you knew He was God and you knew you were forgiven and saved from Hell by Him, and you knew everything you wrote down was right, wouldn't you make sure that it was passed down to people you knew to have the same faith, who had believed by their own eyes or by the testimony of others? Wouldn't you make sure that the writing was protected at all costs for future generations? That's what God did with His Word, and in many instances such is Tyndale, men gave their lives in cooperation with God to keep His Word pure. God chose special men to put His Word in writing, the prophets and apostles, and He chose special men to begin translating his word into English, men who gave their lives for the cause, and God answered the prayer of Tyndale who died for his commitment to God to translate His Word into English, as he was dying in flames being martyred, he prayed "Lord, open the King's eyes". God answered that prayer when the King of England said no to the forces who were against a new version commissioned and authorized by the King, and King James who had been established King by God commanded the authorized version to be complete, completing Tyndale's work after the devil tried to destroy it.

The issue really is childishly simple, it's a matter of faith, believing God for good reasons based on His Word.

Remember, God sets up the Kings and throws them down. Obama would not be president now if God did not want him there. We honor Obama as our president because the office is established by God. There is only one version that has been authorized by the King of England, the King over the people of the English language in his day, and there is one reason that version has changed the world and remains head and shoulders above all other versions for over 400 years....God! it's His Word in English! simple, childishly simple.


I much appreciate the dissertations of scholars who refute the dissertations of scholarly scoffers, but the issue really is not that complicated. I thank God that shorly after I got saved, a man opened the Bible and showed me in the Bible where God promised to keep His Word clean and pure and incorruptible.....and I am born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God which liveth and abideth forever! Amen.

All that and you still didn't answer my actual question:

Joe, as simple as I can make it....did anyone from the time of the autographs being lost until the KJV have the word of God, word for word, as you claim is in the KJV?

The question is, did anyone after the autographs were lost have the exact word of God until 1611?

Please answer that question, which is rather simple.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

The implication is that if you got "saved" by something other than the KJV, you aren't really saved because it's corrupted seed.

Maybe this will help you understand:

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


The Bible says clearly we are born again by the word of God, of incorruptible seed. His Word is incorruptible. The Son of God is the Word of God. The Bible is His written word.

Again, it's a matter of simple faith, taking God at His Word and letting His
Word mean what it says and say what it means exactly as He intended it.


Some people do get saved thanks to their readings in corrupt, fraudulent, copyrighted imposters of God's Word. (The Word of God cannot be copyrighted. Anybody can make their own printing of the King James Bible and make copies and sell them. Publishers get copyrights on their footnotes and maps and cross references. All fake versions of God's Word are completely protected by copyright for exclusive profit of the editors and publishers) There is enough in those perversions of God's Word for them to see they are sinners who need to be saved from Hell and Jesus is God the only Savior. It is possible for a person to get saved just by sitting down and reading nothing but the NIV. But it is still the Word of God, Jesus the Son of God, who saved them and He is incorrupt. I prefer His Word incorrupt in my own language over corrupt versions which have altered His Word in many places, deleted many things (and by many I mean thousands), and through footnotes imply that His Word is not incorruptible and is not reliable. You can use whatever version you want, but if you try to tell me it is God's Word, I have to say "no, it's not". I can show you in your favorite alternative version by comparing verses which alter doctrines that it cannot be the Word of God. God's Word never changes doctrines from one passage to another as all of the modern corrupt imposter Bibles do. The King James Bible is consistent in doctrine from cover to cover, incorruptible and incorrupted, because it is the Word of God. When you find things you don't understand, you don't change them to make them easier to understand, you let God by His Word change you to bring you into better understanding of Him....but I guess that's only me and other KJV only types like myself. Simple childlike faith is wonderful.

I have many friends who are not KJV only and there is no good reason you should not be one of them as long as you hold to basic fundamentals of the faith. My beloved and dearly missed mentor was the most godly man I have ever been honored to keep company with, and he was not KJV only and He knew I was. He didn't want to argue about it, and there was no need to argue with Him. I feared God too much to try to correct a godly man. I don't want to correct anybody, that's God's job and not mine. God will do it if He thinks it needs to be done. I must stand firm in my convictions.

 

[Hammster]

Maybe this will help you understand:

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


The Bible says clearly we are born again by the word of God, of incorruptible seed. His Word is incorruptible. The Son of God is the Word of God. The Bible is His written word.

Again, it's a matter of simple faith, taking God at His Word and letting His
Word mean what it says and say what it means exactly as He intended it.


Some people do get saved thanks to their readings in corrupt, fraudulent, copyrighted imposters of God's Word. (The Word of God cannot be copyrighted. Anybody can make their own printing of the King James Bible and make copies and sell them. Publishers get copyrights on their footnotes and maps and cross references. All fake versions of God's Word are completely protected by copyright for exclusive profit of the editors and publishers) There is enough in those perversions of God's Word for them to see they are sinners who need to be saved from Hell and Jesus is God the only Savior. It is possible for a person to get saved just by sitting down and reading nothing but the NIV. But it is still the Word of God, Jesus the Son of God, who saved them and He is incorrupt. I prefer His Word incorrupt in my own language over corrupt versions which have altered His Word in many places, deleted many things (and by many I mean thousands), and through footnotes imply that His Word is not incorruptible and is not reliable. You can use whatever version you want, but if you try to tell me it is God's Word, I have to say "no, it's not". I can show you in your favorite alternative version by comparing verses which alter doctrines that it cannot be the Word of God. God's Word never changes doctrines from one passage to another as all of the modern corrupt imposter Bibles do. The King James Bible is consistent in doctrine from cover to cover, incorruptible and incorrupted, because it is the Word of God. When you find things you don't understand, you don't change them to make them easier to understand, you let God by His Word change you to bring you into better understanding of Him....but I guess that's only me and other KJV only types like myself. Simple childlike faith is wonderful.

I have many friends who are not KJV only and there is no good reason you should not be one of them as long as you hold to basic fundamentals of the faith. My beloved and dearly missed mentor was the most godly man I have ever been honored to keep company with, and he was not KJV only and He knew I was. He didn't want to argue about it, and there was no need to argue with Him. I feared God too much to try to correct a godly man. I don't want to correct anybody, that's God's job and not mine. God will do it if He thinks it needs to be done. I must stand firm in my convictions.

And yet here you are, trying to correct.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

All that and you still didn't answer my actual question:



The question is, did anyone after the autographs were lost have the exact word of God until 1611?

Please answer that question, which is rather simple.

Does God count as "anybody"?

Please answer the question, which is rather simple.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

And yet here you are, trying to correct.

Stating why I believe what I believe. You don't have to agree, but you should see it's useless to try to convince me I am wrong. We don't have to fight about it.

 

[tall73]

As to when things are difficult you don't try to change them, that is what the Alexandrian proponents suggest happened with the Majority text.

 

[tall73]

Does God count as "anybody"?

Please answer the question, which is rather simple.

God counts as someone.

Now are you saying that only God had the Scriptures from the time the autographs were lost until 1611?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

All that and you still didn't answer my actual question:



The question is, did anyone after the autographs were lost have the exact word of God until 1611?

Please answer that question, which is rather simple.

Does God count as "anyone"? That is the answer to your question, and you have beautifully shown the basic disagreement. You believe God did not preserve His word and give it to us in English, I and some others here believe He did. Why do we have to fight about it? Are we not brothers and sisters born into God's family by His spirit?

The OP is "the preservation of scriptures" not "the preservation of scriptures is a lie". Why not make a separate thread in which you explain all of the reasons you believe prove God's word has not been preserved without error? Do we have to fight about it? If you made your own thread about your belief regarding God's word, I might post there one time an opposing viewpoint, but knowing what you are going to say I'm not going to sit there and keep going on and on making you repeat it so I can fight against it. In this thread, I am in agreement with the OP and thoroughly enjoy my approach to defending the OP. I don't mean any harm to anybody, I simply cannot compromise a conviction I believe is from God putting me in line with His Word. If you are not in agreement on the issue, it's really only one small issue compared to being saved from Hell and going to heaven with your sins paid for by God's own blood in the Son of God through faith in His blood and the power of His bodily resurrection.

 

[tall73]

Does God count as "anyone"? That is the answer to your question, and you have beautifully shown the basic disagreement.

I don't think anyone ever doubted that God had His correct word all along. So I have not disagreed with that at all.

I have doubted that God's word is perfectly expressed in the KJV. And I think it is certainly stretching the meaning of the word "preserved" if you are saying no one had it until 1611


So by saying does God count as anyone, are you saying no humans had it from the time the autographs were lost until 1611?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

As to when things are difficult you don't try to change them, that is what the Alexandrian proponents suggest happened with the Majority text.

I gave all of the answer I will give to this kind of objection in Post 91. Jack Koons will probably be happy to answer your scholarly scoffer against the KJV approach in detail. I like to focus on the simplicity of faith in God's Word.

You can take my statements from Post #91 and apply them to your questions if you like. I don't care to repeat myself. I'm a Jesus proponent, not an Alexandrian proponent. You are barking up the wrong tree with that argument.

 

[tall73]

I gave all of the answer I will give to this kind of objection in Post 91. Jack Koons will probably be happy to answer your scholarly scoffer against the KJV approach in detail. I like to focus on the simplicity of faith in God's Word.

You can take my statements from Post #91 and apply them to your questions if you like. I don't care to repeat myself. I'm a Jesus proponent, not an Alexandrian proponent. You are barking up the wrong tree with that argument.

You probably didn't notice but I am not an Alexandrian text proponent either, as I stated in the other thread. However, your reasoning is exactly what they claim.

So did any human have the perfect word of God from the time the autographs were lost until 1611?