The pre-tribulation Rapture theory is a Satanic Deception.

[iamlamad]

Lamad,

In the past you asked me to run, not walk, to a Pentecostal church. I then listened to Pentecostal pastor, Irvin Baxter on his view of the rapture and the tribulation. He was once a pretribber, but abandoned the doctrine because he could not get it to line up with scripture. I guess you did not like his answer on the link provided in the last post.

In the past you have stated that I cannot be a part of the rapture, because I do not accept the pretrib version. This turns the doctrine into a cult by dividing Christians based on their belief in your viewpoint. You are preaching a different Gospel, which we are clearly commanded not to do.

You have insulted my intelligence on several occasions, because I hold to the same view of the rapture held by those Christians who lived in America before John Darby came to our country. When you do this, your pride is showing.

I have studied 1st Thess. Chapter 5 on a number of occasions and came to understand that both 1st Thess. 5:9 and Romans 5:9 state that we are not appointed to God's wrath because Christ has taken our wrath at the Cross. Rev. 12:12 states that the trib is Satan's wrath. Christ will pour out his wrath on unbelievers after our resurrection at the 7th trumpet. A reference to Christ's return "as a thief in the night" at 1st Thess. 5:2, is in this chapter just as it is in 2nd Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15. These three verses taken in context mean it cannot be a pretrib event, as you desire.

I have also studied Daniel Chapter 9 several times and have not yet found the 2,000 year gap. The angel Gabriel never mentioned a gap. The angel stated the prophecy would last 490 years. Therefore Daniel's 70th week ended in the first century, based on what is written in God's Word. The Church is not a parenthesis in God's plan. The Church is the plan.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that you have it all figured out. Your pride has made you like clay that has lost it's moisture. This means the master Potter can no longer continue to mold you into the image of his Son.

Pride is something all of us must battle on a continuous basis as long as we are alive.

If I am wrong about the timing of the rapture, I can live with the consequences. Most of the Apostles of Christ and millions of Christians who followed them have died as martyrs. It is happening now in other nations. I do not want to die this way, however I realize this world is not my home. The part of me that Christ bought with his blood, is immortal.

However, if you are wrong millions of souls are at stake. Millions will conclude that their pastors have deceived them. Millions of Jews will be lost because they have rejected God's Son. My wife and I support Jews for Jesus because they are spreading the Gospel to the Jewish people. We do this because we love them enough to tell them the truth. There is only one Savior, one Gospel, one way of Salvation, and one plan. There is no plan B for the descendants of Jacob. I really wish there was another way, however the New Testament plainly teaches only one way of eternal life. The Greek word in Romans 11:26 translated as "so" tells us the manner of their salvation. They may only be grafted back into the Olive Tree by faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

As for you and I, I believe we are all done here.

You think you have me all figured out. You don't. The only things I can be sure of in Revelation is what God has taught me. It is not pride to know the truth, because God taught me - it is just simply knowing the truth. There are some chapters in Revelation that I just guess on like most here do. I don't have to guess on where the 70th week is in Revelation, for God taught me. I know that 99% of pretrib still thinks that the seals are a part of the 70th week. I know they are not. I know the 7th trumpet sounds to mark the exact midpoint. I know this because this is the FIRST thing God taught me.

Did you notice that Paul was SO SURE of what God taught him, he did not at first go and confer with those in Jerusalem - those who he said were "somewhat" among the brethren. He began immediately to teach what God had revealed to him.

When revelation knowledge comes, we SHOULD be sure. The problem is, many THINK they get revelation knowledge, when it is only their own imagination.

I told you to RUN to a Pentecostal preacher so you could get filled with the Holy Spirit - not learn about Revelation. Many Pentecostals, even though they can, do not pray much in the Holy Spirit for even they do not understand that it is a revelation gift. If you understood how much praying in tongues is a revelation gift (meaning when you pray much in tongues God will begin revealing scripture to you) I would not have to persuade you to run to someone who prays in tongues and ask them to pray for you to receive the Holy Spirit.

You are right - I did not like his answer - for he is wrong.


Yes, I have written here many times that postribbers will be left behind. WHY would I write this? It is very simple: I see it in scripture. Perhaps I have been wrong, so I will ASK YOU: since I know you believe in a post trib rapture,

CAN YOU BE WATCHING FOR JESUS TO COME PRETRIB (LIKE TOMORROW) WITH YOUR CURRENT BELIEF SYSTEM?

I will admit, I have guessed at your answer, without really asking to be sure. I have always guessed that it would be impossible for someone believing in a postrib rapture to be expecting Jesus to come today or tomorrow. So please tell me" am I wrong?

Next, can you tell me anything we received from heaven without faith? Maybe I am wrong here too: it is my believe that we cannot get ANYTHING from heaven (which I believe includes the rapture) WITHOUT faith.

If this is true, and I believe it is, how could you possibly have faith in something you cannot believe in? Again it is impossible.

Finally, I am convinced the problem with the five foolish virgins is very simple: they did not believe in being filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. They were SHORT on oil, representing the Holy Spirit. I am convinced all ten were born again, for all had lamps lit - so all had some oil. I believe this represents the oil of the Holy Spirit WITHIN as when we are born again.

Therefore, if you wish to continue your walk with God as you are, ignoring Acts 1 & 2, you certainly can. However, I can only warn you that I believe that will be dangerous when the pretrib rapture comes. Since you don't believe in that, I guess you will not worry about it until it comes.

This does NOT make pretrib a cult.

Roman's 5:9 is indeed a good verse, but the context of 1 Thes. 5 is completely different than Romans 5. For example, Paul is talking about the Day of the Lord in 1 Thes. 5, with the rapture as the theme. Yes, certainly Jesus took the wrath of God for SIN - the wrath all will have to suffer in hell and in the lake of fire if they reject Jesus Christ. But this is not speaking of the wrath of God that will come during the Day of the Lord. THIS wrath will come while people are alive and walking around here. Surely you see the difference: one wrath is forever, after sinners are resurrected, while God's wrath during the DAY will be over when the Millennial reign comes.

Christ will pour out his wrath on unbelievers after our resurrection at the 7th trumpet.

You have made this statement or one similar many times. I hope you can show us what scripture tells you that the rapture will come at the 7th trumpet in Revelation. Is the only proof you have the "last trump?" If this is the only proof you have, it is very weak indeed.

A reference to Christ's return "as a thief in the night" at 1st Thess. 5:2, is in this chapter just as it is in 2nd Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15. These three verses taken in context mean it cannot be a pretrib event, as you desire.

Not true. What does it mean, coming as a thief in the night? Does it not mean to come when least expected - when no one is watching or expecting? I believe this is exactly how He will come as in Rev. 19 on the white horse. It will be AFTER the wedding (which is in heaven) and NO ONE except the Father will know just how long that marriage feast will last.

When Jesus comes FOR His bride, as per 1 Thes. 4, again it will be as a thief - when no one is expecting. That is why we must be WATCHING and expecting at all times. How many times did Jesus warn people to WATCH? Therefore, these verses certainly do not preclude or make impossible two more comings: BOTH will be as a thief. By the way, my desire has nothing to do with what is written. I form my beliefs from what is written. When God pushed me into the book of Revelation, I determined to come with an empty slate and know NOTHING unless He taught me. The truth is, I SEE pretrib in the scriptures. I am convinced that the large crowd seen in heaven in Rev. 7 is the raptured church and I know they are there before the 7th seal that begins the 70th week - so of course that is PRETRIB. Since you don't believe in John's chronology, that means nothing to you.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that you have it all figured out. Your pride has made you like clay that has lost it's moisture. This means the master Potter can no longer continue to mold you into the image of his Son.

Pride is something all of us must battle on a continuous basis as long as we are alive.

You are right, we all must watch out for pride. I agree 100%. I DON'T have it all figured out. God has not spoken one word to me about Rev. 17 and 18. I can only use human wisdom which falls far short in Revelation. However, you have mistaken knowing the truth for pride. There is a difference. Paul knew the truth. He prayed in tongues more than them all, and received more revelations than all the rest of the apostles together. He was SURE of Himself and what God had taught him. But I don't think he had pride.

Just so you know, several times on this very forum I have learned something and changed what I believed in that area. I am still very much teachable. I wished someone that KNEW would teach Rev. 17!

I have also studied Daniel Chapter 9 several times and have not yet found the 2,000 year gap

Isn't it amazing God and Daniel SEPARATED the 70th week from the 69th - yet you cannot find a gap?

I realize this world is not my home. The part of me that Christ bought with his blood, is immortal.

Well said! Our home is in heaven!

Millions will conclude that their pastors have deceived them.

I believe this is true - just reversed: when many churches find themselves LEFT BEHIND, they will be FURIOUS with their pastor! I beleive there is more danger in NOT believing in pretrib. It is God's plan to take us OUT so we will not be in His wrath. I fear many will not be able to stand the pressure of the days of great tribulation, so will take the mark. It will be the easy thing to do.

Millions of Jews will be lost because they have rejected God's Son.

This hurts to think of - but it is very true. The bible shows us that only 1/3 will come through this future fire. If only they would BELIEVE NOW!

My wife and I support Jews for Jesus because they are spreading the Gospel to the Jewish people. We do this because we love them enough to tell them the truth. There is only one Savior, one Gospel, one way of Salvation, and one plan.

Good for you! This is a great plan. Many Jews ARE being born again. However, I disagree in a small way: some Jews will not believe until they SEE with their eyes the one they pierced. Then they will mourn. They will be the 1/3 and will enter the millennial reign.

I am disappointed we are done in your mind. I was hoping you would answer questions. Instead you just ignored them. I always try to answer questions. I have nothing to hide.

One thing we can be sure of, we disagree on many scriptures. It is not good, but it happens. Preconceptions are a terrible thing, and can blind anyone to truth when they read the scriptures - myself included.

Added later:
Please keep in mind, it was YOU that started a thread saying that pretrib is satanic deception. You must know, to start such a thread, you need rino' skin! I do apologize if I offended you. That is never my intention. We are brothers in the body of Christ.

I have never started a thread saying posttrib is satanic deception - and I never will. However, since you started this thread, I will certainly defend the truth not for you so much, but for the readers. In the end we will see who is deceived. All will see. The sad part of finding out then - it will be too late. The deceived virgins - all five of them - had NO TIME to prepare when the Bridegroom came - it was too late. Why were they not wise like the other 5? It is a good question: perhaps their pastor did not teach the truth?

LAMAD

 

[Riberra]

Paul knew the truth. He prayed in tongues more than them all, and received more revelations than all the rest of the apostles together. He was SURE of Himself and what God had taught him. But I don't think he had pride.

Not true... John is the one who have received more revelations than the rest of the Apostles together...

How do you explain that God chose John for the whole Revelation of End time chapter 1 to 22 and not Paul?

 

[Riberra]

Added later:
Please keep in mind, it was YOU that started a thread saying that pretrib is satanic deception. You must know, to start such a thread,

In fact that is me who have started the thread.

I have never started a thread saying posttrib is satanic deception - and I never will.

There is enough elements presented in this thread showing the very dubious origin of the pretrib rapture theory.While all sound interpretation of the Scripture point to a gathering/rapture of the believers who are still alive and remain when Jesus return at the End of the Great Tribulation

I will certainly defend the truth not for you so much, but for the readers. In the end we will see who is deceived. All will see. The sad part of finding out then - it will be too late. The deceived virgins - all five of them - had NO TIME to prepare when the Bridegroom came - it was too late. Why were they not wise like the other 5? It is a good question: perhaps their pastor did not teach the truth?

LAMAD

These five wise virgins represent rather those who have keep a sound doctrine and were not being seduced by another Gospel preaching that the faith in the Pretrib Rapture =Salvation as you have wrote in a previous post.

P.S.
Just in case you have forget :The FAITH in JESUS CHRIST = SALVATION

 

[iamlamad]

This is the classic rapture verse:
1 Thes 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

Paul did not end his thoughts on this subject here, but continued: notice the first word of 5:1 is BUT…

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Since Paul was just talked about the rapture, does it not make good sense that what follows will be concerning the “times and seasons” of the rapture”?

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I find this very interesting that Paul mentions the day of the Lord just three verses after the classic rapture verse – just as if these two events had something to do with each other. Also interesting, both the DAY and JESUS come as a thief. Why would that be? Could one reason be that His coming for the rapture would be the trigger for the Day – His coming for the rapture STARTS the Day of the Lord? I think that is what he tells us in this chapter.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

There will be no escape for those left behind. Paul had just mentioned the Day of the Lord, now mentions “sudden destruction.” He begins this sentence with “for” tying this verse to the previous verse and so to the Day of the Lord. In other words, Paul is telling us that the “sudden destruction” will be the “opening salvo” for the Day, or perhaps the SIGN for the Day. In either case, Paul’s “sudden destruction” is tied to “The Day.”

Next we see that the sudden destruction will come at a time when people are saying “peace and safety.” People are saying this because they are THINKING it – so the sudden destruction will come on a day like today. Notice finally, the sudden destruction comes on “them” and “they.”

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Now Paul will make a paradigm, comparing “they” and “them” or those living in darkness with those living in the light of the gospel: “ye” and “we.” Will there not be a GREAT difference between those living in the light and those in the darkness, when the rapture takes place? Of course there will.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Paul is still comparing those in the darkness with those in the light.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Paul, just like Jesus, is telling us that we must be watching and be sober. His “sleep” here is not the snoring kind of sleep, but the sleep of an “I don’t care” attitude. Or the very attitude that Jesus will not come for a long time, or the attitude that “I know I will see the Beast first – so no need to be watching now.”

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

It is truth, sinners love the darkness – both the absence of light, and the darkness of sin.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

We are children of LIGHT, and hate the darkness of sin. Paul tells us to be in FAITH and in love, and of course the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Again Paul begins with a preposition, tying this verse to the previous. We must be “saved” to avoid the wrath. IN CONTEXT this is the wrath of the sudden destruction. It is the wrath of the Day of the Lord. So HOW will those in the light avoid the sudden destruction? What is Paul’s theme in this passage? He begin this passage with the rapture of the church. It is HOW those in the light will avoid the sudden destruction.

God has given me revelation knowledge that this sudden destruction will be a worldwide earthquake, caused by the dead in Christ rising. (See Matthew 27: “The earth did quake…and the graves were opened.) So the dead in Christ rising is the CAUSE of the sudden destruction and the beginning of the day of the Lord. The ONLY way those on earth will avoid this sudden destruction is to be caught up as in the rapture. This is what Paul is teaching us.

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

This sleep means the sleep of death: so those that have died in Christ will rise and those alive and in Christ will RISE UP. It is HOW we get to live together with Him. Paul is resaying what he said in chapter 4, “so shall we ever be with the Lord,” or we get to live together with Him. It is clear, Paul is STILL speaking of the rapture. He did not leave this subject.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Posttribbers have no answer for this verse, or the sister verse in chapter four: “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” The pretrib rapture is a COMFORT for we KNOW we will not have to suffer those days of great tribulation. Paul mentioning this again here in chapter 5 tells us again HE IS STILL SPEAKING of the rapture.

What Paul has shown us then concerning the timing of the rapture is that HIS rapture (not some made up nonsense from the reasonings of man) is that it will come at a time when people THINK they are at peace and safe – when SUDDENLY the rapture event comes and the dead in Christ rise, causing a mighty earthquake felt around the world. That earthquake will be Paul’s sudden destruction, and the SIGN (along with the signs in the sun and moon) that the Day of the Lord has come.

AT this sudden event two groups of people get two different results: those living in the Light, will get raptured and get to live in heaven with Jesus for the next 7 years, while those left behind and those living in darkness will get sudden destruction. There has never yet been a worldwide earthquake, but it is coming soon.

If we study the day of the Lord in the Old Testament we find it is the plan of God to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. We see God beginning this process with the trumpet judgments. John was RIGHT ON when He wrote that the Day of God’s wrath was starting at the end of the 6th seal.

Paul’s rapture then, coming as the SIGN for the Day of the Lord, fits perfectly at the 6th seal. It is not a surprise then that John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN in Revelation chapter 7.
With all this in mind, where is “posttrib?” Where does Jesus return to fight at Armageddon? That is His coming in Rev. 19, after the 70th week and days of great tribulation have finished.

The bible is CLEARLY pretrib.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Not true... John is the one who have received more revelations than the rest of the Apostles together...

How do you explain that God chose John for the whole Revelation of End time chapter 1 to 22 and not Paul?

John wrote the book of John, then three small letters, then Revelation. We are to be judged by PAUL's GOSPEL, not by what John wrote.

Paul wrote much of the rest of the New Testament. I disagree.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

In fact that is me who have started the thread.

There is enough elements presented in this thread showing the very dubious origin of the pretrib rapture theory.While all sound interpretation of the Scripture point to a gathering/rapture of the believers who are still alive and remain when Jesus return at the End of the Great Tribulation

If you believe this, then by all means bring on your bible study and SHOW US BY scripture why the rapture must be at the end. Show us line upon line! If it is truth, you should be well able to prove it by scripture. I will tell you though, some very smart people have tried to prove this over the past years, and have failed miserably. It is very hard to teach against the truth of scripture.

These five wise virgins represent rather those who have keep a sound doctrine and were not being seduced by another Gospel preaching that the faith in the Pretrib Rapture =Salvation as you have wrote in a previous post.

P.S.
Just in case you have forget :The FAITH in JESUS CHRIST = SALVATION

I think you need to SHOW is the verse you get your theory from. What I read is then went to trim their lamps and were OUT OF OIL. This means they were SHORT on oil - they did not have enough to please God. The flip side is, the wise virgins had EXTRA OIL in their "vessels." This represents the human body that the Holy Spirit comes UPON at the baptism with the Holy Spirit. So they were FILLED with the Spirit and had PLENTY of oil.

YOu can fight this all the rest of your life on earth, but the bible speaks of being FILLED with the Holy Spirit and that begins with being baptized IN the Holy Spirit.

Again you are mistaken. Remember the verse where the devils believe and tremble? Remember when James wrote that faith without works is dead, being alone? Faith alone will not get someone born again; they must ACT of that faith.

LAMAD

 

[n2thelight]

The star in Rev 9.1 is a nuclear rocket (most likely short to medium range) that mostly likely will drop on Saudi Arabia --- maybe from Iran as they will have nuclear capability by 2017. Read the bible, old testament.

This is your star in Rev 9.1. The first nuclear explosion in the middle east. The bottomless pit John saw is the crater it created from the explosion. He witness the explosion too mentioned in Rev 9.2.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ima...OlOdeQqAbq3oC4Cg&ved=0CBwQsAQ&biw=853&bih=560

Look at the description in the next verse too. That's the result of a nuclear explosion.

Revelation 9:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.



You really need to do some serious studying about biblical eschatology. Most of the events in the tribulation are of the natural world involving the physical. It's not a war of the supernatural on earth involving angels and demons.

The war in the supernatural is in heaven in Rev 12:7-12.

Do you not know God will destroy parts of the world this time by fire?



,

Nawwwww,you really need to do some serious studying,if you think that he is a rocket,when the verse tells us exactly what the star is...

Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [pit of the abyss]."

Soooooo,a rocket was given the key,are you kidding me?

Revelation 9:2 "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

This is the pit that holds every evil spirit that is on the earth and in God's confinement. This smoke comes from the pit, and it darkens, not eliminates the sun and air. When Jesus Christ returns the sun, moon and stars are eliminated. This darkening is talked about in Revelation 8:12, where one third of visibility is gone, at the sounding of the fourth trumpet.

This smoke is setting up the people of the earth for the supernatural things about to happen. Just like in Job's case, God will set limits how far Satan can go. What is important to us, as Christians; is that we be able to identify Satan, and his works, by what ever roll he plays, or name he choses for himself.

Revelation 9:3 "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power."

This locust army that comes upon the earth is Satan's army of demonic forces. They are the fallen angels, and demons, both coming with Satan, and those that are already here upon the earth.

The "power" in the Greek, is "exousia"; it means "authority", or delegated power by God to them. It is the right to carry out the wrath of God, in His [God's] behalf. When they strike, or exert their power on the deceived, it is a spiritual power, as we see in Ephesians 6:10-20. This is because we are in a spiritual battle against Satan and His forces.

If you are looking for bombs to fall, fire from heaven, or as such, you will be misled. In a spiritual sense, their striking will be deadly; spiritual deadly, for they will exert their authority in the same manner as a scorpion renders it's prey harmless and defenseless. We will discuss this later.

Revelation 9:4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

No rapture,only two choices,the seal of God,or the mark of the beast....

Not I my friend, but it is you who needs to do some serious studying.....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The star in Rev 9.1 is a nuclear rocket (most likely short to medium range) that mostly likely will drop on Saudi Arabia --- maybe from Iran as they will have nuclear capability by 2017. Read the bible, old testament.

This is your star in Rev 9.1.
The first nuclear explosion in the middle east. The bottomless pit John saw is the crater it created from the explosion. He witness the explosion too mentioned in Rev 9.2.

Look at the description in the next verse too.
That's the result of a nuclear explosion......................

Nawwwww,you really need to do some serious studying,if you think that he is a rocket,when the verse tells us exactly what the star is...

Soooooo, a rocket was given the key,are you kidding me?.............

This is the pit that holds every evil spirit that is on the earth and in God's confinement. This smoke comes from the pit, and it darkens, not eliminates the sun and air. When Jesus Christ returns the sun, moon and stars are eliminated..............

Not I my friend, but it is you who needs to do some serious studying.....

I gotta admit, that is the first time I have ever heard of that falling star symbolizing a nuclear missle.
A little far fetched, but then again, maybe not......



.


.

 

[Riberra]

Not true... John is the one who have received more revelations than the rest of the Apostles together...

How do you explain that God chose John for the whole Revelation of End time chapter 1 to 22 and not Paul?
​

John wrote the book of John, then three small letters, then Revelation. We are to be judged by PAUL's GOSPEL, not by what John wrote.

Paul wrote much of the rest of the New Testament. I disagree.

LAMAD

Originally your comment was that Paul have received more revelations.. than all the rest of the apostles together... i take it as meaning prophetic revelations of end time... Right?

Originally Posted by iamlamad

Paul knew the truth. He prayed in tongues more than them all, and received more revelations than all the rest of the apostles together. He was SURE of Himself and what God had taught him. But I don't think he had pride.
​

 

[Riberra]

There is enough elements presented in this thread showing the very dubious origin of the pretrib rapture theory.While all sound interpretation of the Scripture point to a gathering/rapture of the believers who are still alive and remain when Jesus return at the End of the Great Tribulation

If you believe this, then by all means bring on your bible study and SHOW US BY scripture why the rapture must be at the end. Show us line upon line! If it is truth, you should be well able to prove it by scripture. I will tell you though, some very smart people have tried to prove this over the past years, and have failed miserably. It is very hard to teach against the truth of scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, (Read More...)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (Read More...)

1 Thessalonians 3:13 - To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

These five wise virgins represent rather those who have keep a sound doctrine and were not being seduced by another Gospel preaching that the faith in the Pretrib Rapture =Salvation as you have wrote in a previous post.

P.S.
Just in case you have forget :The FAITH in JESUS CHRIST = SALVATION

I think you need to SHOW is the verse you get your theory from. What I read is then went to trim their lamps and were OUT OF OIL. This means they were SHORT on oil - they did not have enough to please God. The flip side is, the wise virgins had EXTRA OIL in their "vessels." This represents the human body that the Holy Spirit comes UPON at the baptism with the Holy Spirit. So they were FILLED with the Spirit and had PLENTY of oil.

YOu can fight this all the rest of your life on earth, but the bible speaks of being FILLED with the Holy Spirit and that begins with being baptized IN the Holy Spirit.

Again you are mistaken. Remember the verse where the devils believe and tremble? Remember when James wrote that faith without works is dead, being alone? Faith alone will not get someone born again; they must ACT of that faith.

LAMAD

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Read More...)



John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 Timothy 2:3-6 - For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (Read More...)

Romans 1:17 - For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[TPeterY]

Nawwwww,you really need to do some serious studying,if you think that he is a rocket,when the verse tells us exactly what the star is...

Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [pit of the abyss]."

Soooooo,a rocket was given the key,are you kidding me?

You take everything you read too literal. If you saw a commercial about a bed as comfortable as sleeping on a cloud, you would think someone invented a flying mattress.

Revelation 9:2 "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

This is the pit that holds every evil spirit that is on the earth and in God's confinement. This smoke comes from the pit, and it darkens, not eliminates the sun and air. When Jesus Christ returns the sun, moon and stars are eliminated. This darkening is talked about in Revelation 8:12, where one third of visibility is gone, at the sounding of the fourth trumpet.

Okay, if you say so. Great understanding of biblical eschatology!

Revelation 9:3 "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power."

This locust army that comes upon the earth is Satan's army of demonic forces. They are the fallen angels, and demons, both coming with Satan, and those that are already here upon the earth.

Right, gotcha! So satan and his army are already on earth even thought the bible said it won't happen until the 3rd woe at Rev 12:9.

Oh you is so smart. I didn't know the 3rd woe happens before the 1st woe.

Revelation 12:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

You might wanna go back to the drawing board and think up a new end time scenario.

If you are looking for bombs to fall, fire from heaven, or as such, you will be misled. In a spiritual sense, their striking will be deadly; spiritual deadly, for they will exert their authority in the same manner as a scorpion renders it's prey harmless and defenseless. We will discuss this later.

Revelation 9:4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

Well I'm disappointed. You must think everyone is as simple minded. You thought one nuclear rocket would put the entire middle east up in flames?

So are you saying if ISIS launched an ICBM at New York, you're telling us Los Angeles and Chicago will be destroy too?

No rapture,only two choices,the seal of God,or the mark of the beast....

Not I my friend, but it is you who needs to do some serious studying.....

Well don't lose your head pondering this but bring some crazy glue with you and be prepare.

Daniel 7:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.


Revelation 20:4 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
I saw thrones, and sitting on those thrones were the ones who had been given the right to judge. I also saw the souls of the people who had their heads cut off because they had told about Jesus and preached God’s message. They were the same ones who had not worshiped the beast or the idol, and they had refused to let its mark be put on their hands or foreheads. They will come to life and rule with Christ for a thousand years.

Well if there's no rapture, which decision will you make, will you take the mark or take the axe?

And if this is what you believe, bring crazy glue.



.

 

[TPeterY]

I gotta admit, that is the first time I have ever heard of that falling star symbolizing a nuclear missle.
A little far fetched, but then again, maybe not......



.


.

Not sure how to answer this but I'll take it as a compliment and say thank you.

 

[Bible2]

n2thelight said in post 957:

Satan (de facto) IS the Antichrist ("instead of Christ" in the Greek tongue)

"Anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

Note that nothing requires that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ. For his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a), promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

That is, in Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

n2thelight said in post 957:

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth

Regarding Ezekiel 28, if verse 2 has application to future events because of its similarity to the never-fulfilled 2 Thessalonians 2:4, then the prince of Tyre could be the future human ruler commonly called the Antichrist (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5-18). If that's the case, then the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:12) could be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon), who will empower the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). Lucifer, before his fall and man's fall, could have been placed as a covering cherub over Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-15).

There's a curious correlation between the prince and the king of Tyre on the one hand (Ezekiel 28), and the use of the name Hiram in the mystical teachings of a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation. For Hiram was the name of the human king of Tyre at the time of the building of King Solomon's temple (1 Kings 5). Also, Hiram was the name of another person from Tyre, the human master workman who helped Solomon build the temple (1 Kings 7:13-14). If the king and the prince of Tyre addressed in Ezekiel 28 are Lucifer and the Antichrist, then the name Hiram would be a perfect code name (not the actual name) for both of them, a name by which their identity within the Gnostic Luciferian teachings of the worldwide secret society could be kept secret from all but its highest-level initiates. Just as the human workman named Hiram built a temple to God in which all the world was to worship (1 Kings 8:41-43), so the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Revelation 13:4), when the Antichrist gains power over the earth (Revelation 13:7).

The Antichrist's future Luciferian rule over the earth could be pictured by the most common, publicly known symbol for the worldwide secret society, in which a drafting/measuring compass, an instrument shaped like the two legs of an "A" (as in "Antichrist"), is sometimes shown standing on top of a globe of the earth. And beneath, as in support of the "A" is a drafting/measuring square, an instrument shaped like an "L" (as in "Lucifer"). Also, found within the "L" is the letter "G", which could ultimately stand for the (false) "Gnosis" (knowledge) of Gnosticism (cf. the original Greek of 1 Timothy 6:20b), which the secret society (mistakenly) thinks can be found in Lucifer. The Antichrist will teach the ancient Gnostic lie that YHWH God is evil (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), and the ancient Gnostic lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will also deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

--

Ultimately, the power behind the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), just as the controllers of the unsaved world have always been (and are still currently) Lucifer and his fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2-3). And there could also be a secret cabal of human world leaders in big business, finance, intelligence agencies, federal law enforcement, politics, the media/entertainment, the military, and religion, who know this fact, and so have secretly become worshippers of Lucifer in order to obtain from him all of the world's power, wealth, and pleasures that they can (cf. Matthew 4:9).

These Luciferians could have been working secretly together for some time (including through a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation) to prepare the way politically, economically, culturally, militarily, and religiously for a single Luciferian human world leader (the Antichrist) to take hegemony over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b) and, along with his miracle-working False Prophet, to deceive the world into the open worship of Lucifer and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 19:20). God will let them succeed in this, but for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5b, Daniel 12:11-12), before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 961:

CAN YOU BE WATCHING FOR JESUS TO COME PRETRIB (LIKE TOMORROW) WITH YOUR CURRENT BELIEF SYSTEM?

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

iamlamad said in post 961:

CAN YOU BE WATCHING FOR JESUS TO COME PRETRIB (LIKE TOMORROW) WITH YOUR CURRENT BELIEF SYSTEM?

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus when the catching up together (rapture) of the church will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

iamlamad said in post 961:

I am convinced the problem with the five foolish virgins is very simple: they did not believe in being filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

iamlamad said in post 961:

Paul is talking about the Day of the Lord in 1 Thes. 5, with the rapture as the theme.

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 961:

I beleive there is more danger in NOT believing in pretrib. It is God's plan to take us OUT so we will not be in His wrath.

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, whereas he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 964:

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

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The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

iamlamad said in post 964:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

iamlamad said in post 964:

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, but their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their physical bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they're going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

 

[n2thelight]

TPeterY

Right, gotcha! So satan and his army are already on earth even thought the bible said it won't happen until the 3rd woe at Rev 12:9.

Oh you is so smart. I didn't know the 3rd woe happens before the 1st woe.

Revelation 12:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

You might wanna go back to the drawing board and think up a new end time scenario.

Boy I tell ya,not much time to explain this to ya right now,but I'll leave you with a question,the below verse,when did it take place?

Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

Heck can't resist let's zoom back to chapter 11

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Now another simple question,how does Christ come before satan is kicked out of Heaven in Chapter 12?

Ponder that,will holla at you later........

 

[TPeterY]

Boy I tell ya,not much time to explain this to ya right now,but I'll leave you with a question,the below verse,when did it take place?

Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

Heck can't resist let's zoom back to chapter 11

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Now another simple question,how does Christ come before satan is kicked out of Heaven in Chapter 12?

Ponder that,will holla at you later........

I have no idea. Your eschatology is so far off out of alignment, nothing makes sense. You even told me the 7th trumpet is at the end of the tribulation, as well as there not being a rapture. This is what your tribulation looks like.

6th trumpet - 4th seal - 3rd vial - 5th vial - 2nd trumpet - 1st seal - 5th trumpet - 3rd seal - 7th vial - 1st vial - 7th seal - 2nd seal - 7th trumpet.

You also don't seem to have a grasping knowledge of things you read in scriptures, and you refuse to accept help when it's graciously offered. Plus you also love to attack scriptures in the bible, 1 Thes 4:16-17 and have no concern of it's consequences.

So what's the point of playing along? If you want me to play, explain in your own words what each of those verses mean, Rev 11:15 & 12:5. Don't copy and paste an answer from theseason.org

How much do you really know what you read?

 

[iamlamad]

Not true... John is the one who have received more revelations than the rest of the Apostles together...

How do you explain that God chose John for the whole Revelation of End time chapter 1 to 22 and not Paul?

First, it is VERY difficult to explain GOD! I will try: when it was time for the Revelation of Jesus Christ to be given, Paul was already in heaven. Second, The Revelation is mostly about the JEWS and Israel, since 9 chapters are about the 70th week of Daniel and two more are about the end of the Beast in Israel.

Paul was sent to the Gentiles. Those that obey will not be here for the 70th week of Daniel. It has nothing to do with the Church.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Originally your comment was that Paul have received more revelations.. than all the rest of the apostles together... i take it as meaning prophetic revelations of end time... Right?

Ah! I see I should have explained. No, not necessarily end times. What do we find in Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, and Hebrews? We find mostly things like WHO WE ARE in Christ Jesus - revelations of the body of Christ on earth.

You are right, JOHN got more revelation on the end times. Sorry I did not make myself more clear. My point was, WHY or HOW did Paul receive all this revelation? It was because He prayed in tongues more than them all. I suspect John was not far behind him in praying in tongues. It is the revelation gift. When we pray in tongues we pray MYSTERIES. What? Mysteries to GOD? Of course not! Things that are mysteries to US. Mysteries are ended when Revelation comes.

Lamad

 

[iamlamad]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, (Read More...)

You are missing your commentary on this verse. Therefore I will add the commentary. First, this is a very ambiguous verse because Paul left several words out that have been added by the translators. Did they get it right? ONLY PAUL and God know for sure. Next, different translators have translated this passage vastly different, changing the meaning drastically.

However, with all the problems, we can still come very close to Paul's intended meaning. The secret is IN THE CONTEXT.

Have you studied and meditated on this passage? Did you ever ask God WHY Paul wrote in verse 6 "and now you know..." Have you meditated on WHO or WHAT is restraining and will be "taken out of the way?" Did you notice in your study that the rapture "gathering" is the THEME of this passage? Most commentators end up with some hodgpodge of meaning that IGNORES Paul's theme.

Did you know that several of the first translators into English translated the word Apostasia as "departure" or "departing?" Have you researched this compound Greek word to see what it COULD mean? The two parts are Apo and stasis.

Did you notice what Strongs has for "Apo?"
of separation

1. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
2. of separation of a part from the whole
   
   1. where of a whole some part is taken

Does this not PERFECTLY fit the rapture, where a PART of a whole is taken?

The lost and the found are found STANDING or stationary on the earth, in the moment of the rapture. At that moment a separation will take place, where a PART of the whole stasis is taken and removed spatially to another location.

Some Greek scholars have said this word could certainly mean a SPATIAL movement of a part of a whole. We could well say a DEPARTURE of a part of a whole, as some of the first translators into English rendered it.

However, the real KEY to the meaning of apostasia is the verses that follow. WHY did Paul write, "and now you know?" I think he wrote it because he had JUST TOLD US who was restraining, but he wrote it in a way where one would have to back up and read it over and over.

Paul was VERY clear: there is someone RESTRAINING the man of sin and PREVENTING his revealing. When the right time comes, that someone will be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. This is an absolute and cannot be understood any other way.

Then Paul wrote AND NOW YOU KNOW. HOW Paul? HOW can we know? It is very simple, just BACK UP from verse 6 and look for something "taken out of the way or departed. Is that difficult?

So we find in verse three, first the man of sin HAS BEEN revealed and enters the temple and declares he is God (In Paul's argument.) Just use common sense: if the man of sin HAS BEEN or "IS" revealed in 3b, then the one restraining MUST HAVE BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY in 3A. AGain this is an absolute can cannot be understood any other way, if words mean anything.

So pretrib or posttrib: BOTH sides must determine in 3a WHAT is departed (removed out of the way) so that the man of sin can be revealed. If we remember Paul's theme, the answer is so easy to see: it is the CHURCH who is taken out of the way. Mind you, this is not just any ordinary departing, it is THE departing. Paul said it was a SPECIAL departing. Would a falling away (from what we don't know) fit anything special? I think not. If a falling away from God was meant, that is something evil. Does it make sense that evil restrains evil? I don't think so. No, the most common sense answer is that it is the CHURCH who is taken out of the way, so the man of sin can be revealed.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (Read More...)

Again you left out any commentary. This is the CLASSIC rapture verse. But in these verses are found no hint of WHEN. For when we must go into chapter 5.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 - To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

AGain it is a wonderful verse that tells us He is coming, and quite likely it is the SAME coming as seen in chapter 4. But again this verse lacks any information of WHEN.

1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Again a wonderful verse by the same author, but again NO HINT of when. All we have here is "the last trump." In 1 Thes. 4 we saw" The trump of God." So with this added information we know that the "trump of God" is "the last trump." Since we know God is not going to go and collect all trumpets and erase the memory of trumpets so there can never be another, we have to QUALIFY that "last trump" to mean the "last trump" OF A CERTAIN SERIES. Certainly the 7th trumpet of Revelation is the last of THAT series, but is that the trump it question? There is NOT ONE HINT that these trumps are related, and MUCH scripture showing us they are NOT related. Paul's last trump is the last of a DIFFERENT SERIES. The associated scriptures prove this beyond any doubt.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Read More...)

A great verse but has little meaning for the end times. It is a church age verse.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 Timothy 2:3-6 - For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (Read More...)

Romans 1:17 - For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Same answer as above: great verses but for the church age. These are not end time verses.

Perhaps you can explain to us HOW you will get to the marriage and supper. No posttribber has ever been able to yet - so why don't you give it a shot?

Then, I hope you can explain this scenario:

It is time for the battle of Armageddon: Jesus descends after leaving the marriage supper in heaven. It is at this moment as He is descending that the posttribbers believe the rapture will take place. (please correct me if this is NOT your belief.)

So at the moment of His descent, ALL THOSE who believe will be changed - from mortal to immortality, this corruption must put on incorruption.

So now ALL believers are caught up and changed into new resurrection bodies.

WHO then, will be the sheep at the sheep and goat judgment - the very judgment that separates the wicked from the righteous to see WHO will enter the millennial kingdom? WHO would be the sheep in natural bodies for this judgment?

Then WHO would enter the millennial kingdom in natural bodies to repopulate the species? It seems in your theory all the righteous would be CHANGED - so no sheep.

Can you explain this?

LAMAD