The pre-tribulation Rapture theory is a Satanic Deception.

[n2thelight]

Originally Posted by n2thelight

Boy I tell ya,not much time to explain this to ya right now,but I'll leave you with a question,the below verse,when did it take place?

Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

Heck can't resist let's zoom back to chapter 11

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Now another simple question,how does Christ come before satan is kicked out of Heaven in Chapter 12?

Ponder that,will holla at you later........

TPeterY
​

I have no idea. Your eschatology is so far off out of alignment, nothing makes sense. You even told me the 7th trumpet is at the end of the tribulation, as well as there not being a rapture. This is what your tribulation looks like.

6th trumpet - 4th seal - 3rd vial - 5th vial - 2nd trumpet - 1st seal - 5th trumpet - 3rd seal - 7th vial - 1st vial - 7th seal - 2nd seal - 7th trumpet.

You also don't seem to have a grasping knowledge of things you read in scriptures, and you refuse to accept help when it's graciously offered. Plus you also love to attack scriptures in the bible, 1 Thes 4:16-17 and have no concern of it's consequences.

So what's the point of playing along? If you want me to play, explain in your own words what each of those verses mean, Rev 11:15 & 12:5. Don't copy and paste an answer from theseason.org

How much do you really know what you read?

That's my point,you have no idea..As for the season.org,that's who I study with,and what I cut and paste,Im in agreement with....

The questions were because you seem to think I was out of order(chronalogically),yet you can't answer the questions I posed...

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.
Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

​

 

[Riberra]

Originally Posted by Riberra

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 Timothy 2:3-6 - For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (Read More...)

Romans 1:17 - For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
​

A great verse but has little meaning for the end times. It is a church age verse.

LAMAD

These verses are about Salvation by Faith in Jesus Christ and this apply for all believers including those who will live during the Great Tribulation... that will include you and me and all the readers still alive ,because there will be no pretrib rapture.

 

[Riberra]

You are missing your commentary on this verse. Therefore I will add the commentary. First, this is a very ambiguous verse because Paul left several words out that have been added by the translators. Did they get it right? ONLY PAUL and God know for sure. Next, different translators have translated this passage vastly different, changing the meaning drastically.

However, with all the problems, we can still come very close to Paul's intended meaning. The secret is IN THE CONTEXT.

Have you studied and meditated on this passage? Did you ever ask God WHY Paul wrote in verse 6 "and now you know..." Have you meditated on WHO or WHAT is restraining and will be "taken out of the way?" Did you notice in your study that the rapture "gathering" is the THEME of this passage? Most commentators end up with some hodgpodge of meaning that IGNORES Paul's theme.

Did you know that several of the first translators into English translated the word Apostasia as "departure" or "departing?" Have you researched this compound Greek word to see what it COULD mean? The two parts are Apo and stasis.

Apostasia mean departure from the Faith In Jesus Christ.You are LOST without IT.

Apostasia does not mean departure from the Earth before the Great Tribulation.

 

[Riberra]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3- Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, (Read More...)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (Read More...)

1 Thessalonians 3:13 - To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You left out any commentary.

I don't have to provide any commentary because a sound reading of these verses show that this will happen when Jesus return at the END of the Great Tribulation.

AGain it is a wonderful verse that tells us He is coming, and quite likely it is the SAME coming as seen in chapter 4. But again this verse lacks any information of WHEN.

Jesus said Himself that only the Father know WHEN as for the Day and Hour.However we know that PRECEDING Jesus Second Coming there come a falling away first , and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 2:3

Now viewing scripture range from the book of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:1 through chapter 2:3...
2 Thessalonians Chapter 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[TPeterY]

Anyone can copy and paste from revelation12 and throw out opinions, even I can do that.

Who needs the bible when all the answers are on http://www.theseason.org/, even when there are conflicting views.

Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

The "man child" that was brought forth in the little town of Bethlehem when Jesus the Christ child was born. There are only two events that sit upon this throne, and the only one to do this was a child. Get it? That child is Jesus Christ.

This verse covers two advents [comings]; the first is Christ's birth as a child, and His second coming will be at the seventh trumpet. Then He will come to rule all nations with a rod of iron. Jesus Christ will come as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is the seventh and final trumpet, from the time that the two witnesses stand to their feet, we are dealing in seconds, and minutes for it all to occur. The third woe comes with the seventh trumpet. All prophecy in the entire Bible dealing with the seventh, and last trumpet happens instantly at this time.

The voices that boom around the world will announce; "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ: and He shall reign for ever and ever."

When Satan is released at the end of the Millennium period, this will not interfer with God's kingdom on earth. It continues through then, and into eternity, world without end. Remember that when Satan returns after the Millennium kingdom, he will not have his hoards of fallen angels with him.

At the seventh trumpet Jesus Christ is returning to be King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.
Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesis, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

This is Jesus talking to John, and asking him to look around on this Lord's day, and write what you see, and then send it to the seven churches of Asia. These seven churches represent all of the types of churches that exist on the earth in these last days.

Which of these churches represent your church? Can you identify the type of church by the teaching in that church. Jesus said, I want you, John, to show each of those churches exactly what is going to happen at the end of this earth age, and what I think of each of them. The next two chapters will give us the details of the doctrine of each of these churches.



.

 

[n2thelight]

TPeterY

Anyone can copy and paste from revelation12 and throw out opinions, even I can do that.

Who needs the bible when all the answers are on http://www.theseason.org/, even when there are conflicting views.

I don't see them as conflicting,you are the one that's seeing what's not there,because the rapture is nowhere in God's Word

As for where I chose to learn,that's on me,and it is I alone who shall stand before God,and I have no problem with that whatsoever...

I John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

I Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit."

I Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord."

I Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge, by the same Spirit;

I Corinthians 12:9 "To another faith, by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing, by the same Spirit."

I Corinthians 12:10 "To another the working of miracles, to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues:"

I Corinthians 12:11 "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will."

I Corinthians 12:18 "But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased Him."

I

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 980:

Have you meditated on WHO or WHAT is restraining and will be "taken out of the way?"

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he's always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

iamlamad said in post 980:

Did you know that several of the first translators into English translated the word Apostasia as "departure" or "departing?"

The "departure" or the "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

iamlamad said in post 980:

WHY did Paul write, "and now you know?"

When Paul says, regarding the restrainer, "now ye know what withholdeth" (2 Thessalonians 2:6), he was addressing the 1st century AD Thessalonians to whom he had previously explained everything in person (2 Thessalonians 2:5). That is, "now" included both a time in their past and their present, just as, for example, the "now" in 1 Thessalonians 3:8, Colossians 1:26, and 2 Timothy 1:10 included both a past time (compared with the exact moment those letters were first read) and the present.

iamlamad said in post 980:

So we find in verse three, first the man of sin HAS BEEN revealed and enters the temple and declares he is God (In Paul's argument.)

2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things that has to happen before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 980:

It is a church age verse.

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

iamlamad said in post 980:

WHO then, will be the sheep at the sheep and goat judgment . . .

Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

iamlamad said in post 980:

Then WHO would enter the millennial kingdom in natural bodies to repopulate the species?

Those who will populate the millennium, in the sense of having offspring during the millennium, will be the unsaved people "left" alive in their mortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40, Zechariah 14:16-19). The millennium could also be populated by the elect Jews who will get saved at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). For they could enter the millennium (Zechariah 14:5-21) while still in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of the saved into immortal physical bodies at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) could be only for those who had become saved before the 2nd coming.

 

[TPeterY]

I don't see them as conflicting,you are the one that's seeing what's not there,because the rapture is nowhere in God's Word

As for where I chose to learn,that's on me,and it is I alone who shall stand before God,and I have no problem with that whatsoever...

Oh yes he does. The writter of that website forms his own opinions of what every verse in the bible said and many are wrong. They are his translations, not God's.

The "Catching Away" (rapture) is God's word and written in the bible.

Again, if you want to learn about the word of God, read directly from the bible. Use various translations if you need but stick to the bible.

 

[n2thelight]

Bible2

Those who will populate the millennium, in the sense of having offspring during the millennium, will be the unsaved people "left" alive in their mortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40, Zechariah 14:16-19). The millennium could also be populated by the elect Jews who will get saved at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). For they could enter the millennium (Zechariah 14:5-21) while still in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of the saved into immortal physical bodies at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) could be only for those who had become saved before the 2nd coming.

I would have to disagree with this,for at the 7th trump,ie,the start of the millennium,the age of the flesh shall be over,no one will be born.......

 

[n2thelight]

Oh yes he does. The writter of that website forms his own opinions of what every verse in the bible said and many are wrong. They are his translations, not God's.

The "Catching Away" (rapture) is God's word and written in the bible.

Again, if you want to learn about the word of God, read directly from the bible. Use various translations if you need but stick to the bible.

Scripture interprets scripture and the majority of what is taught on that site is backed by a second witness of scripture

Again the rapture is not in God's Word,we gather to Christ at the 7th trump,and not one day before,I think Paul makes this very clear....And then when you read what Christ said about His coming being after the trib,do tell how does the Church leave before then....

Answer it can't and it won't,is that not enough for you to see this false doctrine for what it is?????

1+1+1 is 3,not 4

 

[TPeterY]

n2thelight

This is what that guy's comment on his website about 1st Thessalonians 4:16 looks like.
1thess4

Everything in red is wrong, complete error. So much error with just one verse. Here's a couple examples. He said when Jesus returns to earth, we'll get a spirit body on earth as there's no rapture. That's completely impossible and 100% false. You can NOT have a spiritual body on earth, and can't live in heaven in a physical body. (Read 1st Cor 15:50 below)

He also said the Antichrist's reigns ends after the death of the two witnesses in the 2nd paragraph. And you actually believe this guy?

Why do you follow this website over the bible? Why would you make this your primary source of information about prophecy?

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.

Many people have images of massive numbers of people flying away, with all sorts of accidents taking place; however, the Bible doesn't tell us it will be in that manner. In Revelation 11, it tells us exactly three and a half days prior what will happen, and the whole world will know about it, for it is no hidden mystery. That is when the Antichrist will end his reign by killing God's two witnesses, and send the world into a three and a half day party of celebration.

In Revelation 11 the world will know the two witnesses, for the disruption they have caused, and the world will watch as they are killed, and their dead bodies are put on display in a wide street [arena]. Are you still looking for a rapture, well my friend, at the end of the three and half day period it will be a time of great shame for you, For as Revelation 9:4 points out, the truth will not be sealed in your mind, and God is going to turn you over to Antichrist. The "rapture theory", could be the death warrant of your very soul, or a commitment of your soul to great shame. If you believe in the "Rapture theory" you will be on the side of Antichrist, and will fly with anyone, because you just don't understand the Word of God.

Remember, Two bodies will be in the streets of Jerusalem for three days, causing a world wide massive party...that is your warning just before Jesus Christ return to this earth. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

_______________________________________


1 Corinthians 15:50 New Living Translation (NLT)
What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.




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[iamlamad]

Originally Posted by n2thelight

Boy I tell ya,not much time to explain this to ya right now,but I'll leave you with a question,the below verse,when did it take place?

Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."​

The man child - Jesus Christ - was born around 2 BC on our calendar. He was caught up to God around 32 AD. This is the truth of that verse. Anyone that is trying to spiritualize it will end up with nonsense. The chapter is all about the dragon (used in that chapter 32 times, if I remember right) and in particular what the dragon would be doing in the 2nd half of the week. In John's chronology, chapter 12 is at the midpoint of the week. However, in showing John about the dragon, God CHOOSE to show John what the dragon did when Jesus was born. The first five verses were a history lesson for John, written as a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology. If one tries to fit these five verses into the midpoint of the week, they will end up with nonsense.

Heck can't resist let's zoom back to chapter 11

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Now another simple question,how does Christ come before satan is kicked out of Heaven in Chapter 12?

Ponder that,will holla at you later........

More nonsense. The text does not TELL US that Jesus Christ returns. That theory is MYTH. It only tells us that Satan lost and Jesus won. The truth is, the mystery at the 7th trumpet is that the earth lease of 6000 years is UP - FINISHED - so the lease given to Adam is over and done with. Adam's lease that Satan usurped is no longer in force. The planet and the world on the planet has always been God's - for He created it. So POSSESSION of the planet is taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. The Kingdoms of the world will at that time (7th trumpet) become the kingdoms of Our Lord. Satan suddenly has NOTHING to hold on to - no more legal recourse - the lease he had usurped will have ended at the 7th trumpet.

The 7th trumpet is also the signal Michael has been waiting for for a long time - the time Adam's lease is up. He will fight with Satan and WIN, and Satan will be removed from the high places - kicked down from the heavenlies.

That's my point,you have no idea..As for the season.org,that's who I study with,and what I cut and paste,Im in agreement with....

The questions were because you seem to think I was out of order(chronalogically),yet you can't answer the questions I posed...

You need to leave that web site - RUN from it. It is all nonsense.

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

This is another theory of man that is silly to the extreme. John was in the Spirit on SUNDAY, the day the Lord rose from the dead - the day the early believers came together to worship. It is silly because the 7 churches John was to send his letter to DID NOT EXIST after the first century. This letter was speaking to certain people in certain churches that existed when John wrote. For example, the prostitute and the men in bed with her.

Then chapter 4 and 5 were a history lesson for John. John was seeing a vision of the PAST...looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on earth. So definitely NOT the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord does not start until the great earthquake at the 6th seal. Another one of your theories destroyed by the truth of God's word.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.
Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns.

Again a theory of man that is WRONG. Why can't you believe John? In HIS book, the Day of the Lord begins in chapter 6 with the 6th seal, that will happen before the 7th seal that BEGINS the 70th week. The day of the Lord is a DARK day, a day when God will destroy the world and the sinners in the world. That destruction begins with the worldwide earthquake of the 5th seal and the signs in the sun and moon that the Day of the Lord has come. The first "salvo" of the day of the Lord is the very first trumpet judgment that begins the process of destroying the world. In case you missed it, Jesus DOES NOT COME on His white horse unto 7 years plus LATER. So another theory of man destroyed by the TRUTH of the word of God. The Day of the Lord will have have been ONGOING for 7 plus years by the time Jesus comes in His glory.

This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Certainly the vials of God's wrath will be poured out DURING the Day of the Lord. It will be an EXTENDED period of time, not just 24 hours. By the time God BEGINS to pour out the vials of His wrath, the DAy of the Lord will have been ongoing for over 3 1/2 years - probably more like 6 years. The vials will come LATE in the second half of the week.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

WRONG! If JOhn was truly taken ahead to the Day of the Lord (some time in our future) He would have had to look back nearly 2000 years for some of the book. Your theory is simply WRONG. Why don't you just admit you are wrong and START OVER?

LAMAD
​

 

[iamlamad]

n2thelight

This is what that guy's comment on his website about 1st Thessalonians 4:16 looks like.
1thess4

Everything in red is wrong, complete error. So much error with just one verse. Here's a couple examples. He said when Jesus returns to earth, we'll get a spirit body on earth as there's no rapture. That's completely impossible and 100% false. You can NOT have a spiritual body on earth, and can't live in heaven in a physical body. (Read 1st Cor 15:50 below)

He also said the Antichrist's reigns ends after the death of the two witnesses in the 2nd paragraph. And you actually believe this guy?

Why do you follow this website over the bible? Why would you make this your primary source of information about prophecy?

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.

Many people have images of massive numbers of people flying away, with all sorts of accidents taking place; however, the Bible doesn't tell us it will be in that manner. In Revelation 11, it tells us exactly three and a half days prior what will happen, and the whole world will know about it, for it is no hidden mystery. That is when the Antichrist will end his reign by killing God's two witnesses, and send the world into a three and a half day party of celebration.

In Revelation 11 the world will know the two witnesses, for the disruption they have caused, and the world will watch as they are killed, and their dead bodies are put on display in a wide street [arena]. Are you still looking for a rapture, well my friend, at the end of the three and half day period it will be a time of great shame for you, For as Revelation 9:4 points out, the truth will not be sealed in your mind, and God is going to turn you over to Antichrist. The "rapture theory", could be the death warrant of your very soul, or a commitment of your soul to great shame. If you believe in the "Rapture theory" you will be on the side of Antichrist, and will fly with anyone, because you just don't understand the Word of God.

Remember, Two bodies will be in the streets of Jerusalem for three days, causing a world wide massive party...that is your warning just before Jesus Christ return to this earth. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

_______________________________________


1 Corinthians 15:50 New Living Translation (NLT)
What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
.

I agree with Peter: whoever wrote this nonsense is completely off his or her rocker. This stuff is complete MYTH.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Scripture interprets scripture and the majority of what is taught on that site is backed by a second witness of scripture

Again the rapture is not in God's Word,we gather to Christ at the 7th trump,and not one day before,I think Paul makes this very clear....And then when you read what Christ said about His coming being after the trib,do tell how does the Church leave before then....

Answer it can't and it won't,is that not enough for you to see this false doctrine for what it is?????

1+1+1 is 3,not 4

"The rapture is not in scripture..." I wonder who tore it out of your bible? It is certainly in all other bibles.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Do these words ring just a little bell for you? Does a light bulb suddenly light? THESE WORDS are in all bibles unless they have been torn out. This is the rapture of the church.

Go ahead and deny it! It will happen soon and you will be left behind banging your head against a wall wondering "why am I left behind?"

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

I am convinced we are within MONTHS (perhaps next year?) of this event Paul wrote about taking place. You have precious little time to go back to prophecy 101 and START OVER.

If you cannot believe the truth NOW, how in the world will you hold onto truth with the BEAST is in power? There IS NO GATHERING at the 7th trumpet, so if you survive until then, you will be captured and will lose your head during the second half of the week. Or perhaps you will still be so confused then, you will actually think taking the MARK will be the wise thing to do so you won't die of thirst or hunger.

I have a novel idea: WHY NOT JUST BELIEVE LUKE 21:36?

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

I would have to disagree with this,for at the 7th trump,ie,the start of the millennium,the age of the flesh shall be over,no one will be born.......

How can one guy be wrong on SO MANY POINTS? WAKE UP! The 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week, not the end. You are 3 1/2 years OFF.

However, you are correct that the change of millennia will come at the 7th trumpet. However, the millennial reign of Christ will have to WAIT for over 3 1/2 years for the 70th week to finish, the marriage and supper to finish and Jesus to return. Then, after the battle of Armageddon, the sheep and goat judgment must take place. Finally, AFTER all that, the millennial reign of Christ will begin.

And you are wrong on yet ANOTHER point: the age of flesh will continue on through the millennial reign of Christ, for CHILDREN must be born to repopulate the earth. Only a FEW will received resurrection bodies. I guess you have forgotten about the NARROW road that leads to heaven, and the BROAD road that leads to hell?

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Anyone can copy and paste from revelation12 and throw out opinions, even I can do that.

Who needs the bible when all the answers are on theseason.org, even when there are conflicting views.




The "man child" that was brought forth in the little town of Bethlehem when Jesus the Christ child was born. There are only two events that sit upon this throne, and the only one to do this was a child. Get it? That child is Jesus Christ.

This verse covers two advents [comings]; the first is Christ's birth as a child, and His second coming will be at the seventh trumpet. Then He will come to rule all nations with a rod of iron. Jesus Christ will come as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

This is the seventh and final trumpet, from the time that the two witnesses stand to their feet, we are dealing in seconds, and minutes for it all to occur. The third woe comes with the seventh trumpet. All prophecy in the entire Bible dealing with the seventh, and last trumpet happens instantly at this time.

The voices that boom around the world will announce; "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ: and He shall reign for ever and ever."

When Satan is released at the end of the Millennium period, this will not interfer with God's kingdom on earth. It continues through then, and into eternity, world without end. Remember that when Satan returns after the Millennium kingdom, he will not have his hoards of fallen angels with him.

At the seventh trumpet Jesus Christ is returning to be King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesis, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

This is Jesus talking to John, and asking him to look around on this Lord's day, and write what you see, and then send it to the seven churches of Asia. These seven churches represent all of the types of churches that exist on the earth in these last days.

Which of these churches represent your church? Can you identify the type of church by the teaching in that church. Jesus said, I want you, John, to show each of those churches exactly what is going to happen at the end of this earth age, and what I think of each of them. The next two chapters will give us the details of the doctrine of each of these churches.
.

Peter, you are right on most things, but you are completely off on the timing of the 7th trumpet. Verses 11"4-11:13 are written as a parenthesis and have NO BEARING on chronology. John takes us on a SIDE journey (rabbit trail) down the second half of the week for the two witnesses in these verses.

The TRUTH is, the two witnesses SHOW UP in Jerusalem just 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to mark the abomination on earth, the very abomination that divides the week into two halves. The moment he enters the temple, there can be no more sacrifices until the temple is cleansed. So the abomination begins the moment the man of sin enters the temple and says "I am God." This is the event that divides the week into two halves. And at that moment the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to MARK that event.

WHY do the two witnesses show up at that moment in time? It is because the MAN OF SIN with his armies arrives in Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before the abomination. It is very simple: before he can enter the temple and declare to the world that he is God, HE MUST FIRST GET TO THE CITY OF JERUSALEM! So the two witnesses show up BECAUSE the man of sin arrives.

So they begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, then testify for 1260 days, taking them to exactly 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will lay dead for 3 1/2 days and then rise up AT THE 7th VIAL when ALL the Old Testament saints rise.

The TRUTH is, all five mentions of the 3 1/2 years (whether given in days or months or years) all are events that will begin near or at the midpoint and go to the end of the week. The 70th week is "clearly marked" (God's words, not mine) by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the week ends with the 7th vial.

At the seventh trumpet Jesus Christ is returning to be King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! THIS IS MYTH! NOWHERE can you find a coming at the 7th trumpet. His coming is CLEARLY laid out in chapter 19, over 3 1/2 years LATER.
THERE IS NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. Yes, the Kingdoms are transferred to Jesus at the midpoint of the week, because the 6000 year lease given to Adam is OVER at that point. But Jesus does NOT TAKE PHYSICAL POSSESSION until AFTER the week has finished on earth and the marriage and supper are finished in heaven.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

I don't have to provide any commentary because a sound reading of these verses show that this will happen when Jesus return at the END of the Great Tribulation.

HA HA! Sometimes you are absolutely FUNNY! SO FAR WRONG you are funny!

The truth is, those scriptures show just the opposite. your PRECONCEIVED GLASSES are throwing you off. But go ahead on: GET LEFT BEHIND. It will be your own doing.

Jesus said Himself that only the Father know WHEN as for the Day and Hour.However we know that PRECEDING Jesus Second Coming there come a falling away first , and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Indeed that is what the KJV tells us. They were WRONG. That translation does not fit the CONTEXT. I guess pulling verses out of context does not bother you.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 2:3

Now viewing scripture range from the book of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:1 through chapter 2:3...
2 Thessalonians Chapter 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

WHAT must come first? The DEPARTURE must come first, because the HOLY SPIRIT working through the BRIDE of Christ must be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY before the man of sin can be revealed. Read it again: that man of sin be revealed, So IS he revealed here in Paul's argument or not? Of course you KNOW he is, for that is exactly what the text says. So at this time, the one restraining MUST BE "taken out of the way."

Get it? BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed the one restraining MUST BE REMOVED out of the way. Now, if you wish to believe it is a "falling away" that is restraining the man of sin from being revealed, that is your choice. I choose to believe in is THE CHURCH and the Holy Spirit working through the church who is restraining.

By the way, where is the "gathering" (Paul's theme) in your theory? Which verse?

One cannot just read lightly over these texts. We must diligently STUDY to show ourselves approved.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Apostasia mean departure from the Faith In Jesus Christ.You are LOST without IT.

Apostasia does not mean departure from the Earth before the Great Tribulation.

HOW could any one man be so far off in so many areas? Did you read that in some book? Have you really studied this in depth?

Apostasia has the idea of DEPARTING, but that is ALL. There is NOTHING in this word that tells us what is being departed from what. You ADDED "from the faith." This is how false doctrine gets created. Get a parallel Greek English interlinear and read it again.

Your preconceived glasses are IN THE WAY again. Go back and study verses 6-8. SOMEONE is restraining the man of sin, and that SOMEONE must be taken out of the way in verse 3a. This is an absolute if words mean ANYTHING. This is the CONTEXT. You cannot come to the correct understanding of verse 3 and IGNORE 4-8.

So you tell me: WHAT Is "taken out of the way" in verse 3a so that the man of sin can be revealed in his time?

LAMAD

 

[TPeterY]

Peter, you are right on most things, but you are completely off on the timing of the 7th trumpet. Verses 11"4-11:13 are written as a parenthesis and have NO BEARING on chronology. John takes us on a SIDE journey (rabbit trail) down the second half of the week for the two witnesses in these verses.

The TRUTH is, the two witnesses SHOW UP in Jerusalem just 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to mark the abomination on earth, the very abomination that divides the week into two halves. The moment he enters the temple, there can be no more sacrifices until the temple is cleansed. So the abomination begins the moment the man of sin enters the temple and says "I am God." This is the event that divides the week into two halves. And at that moment the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to MARK that event.

WHY do the two witnesses show up at that moment in time? It is because the MAN OF SIN with his armies arrives in Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before the abomination. It is very simple: before he can enter the temple and declare to the world that he is God, HE MUST FIRST GET TO THE CITY OF JERUSALEM! So the two witnesses show up BECAUSE the man of sin arrives.

So they begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, then testify for 1260 days, taking them to exactly 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will lay dead for 3 1/2 days and then rise up AT THE 7th VIAL when ALL the Old Testament saints rise.

The TRUTH is, all five mentions of the 3 1/2 years (whether given in days or months or years) all are events that will begin near or at the midpoint and go to the end of the week. The 70th week is "clearly marked" (God's words, not mine) by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the week ends with the 7th vial.

At the seventh trumpet Jesus Christ is returning to be King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! THIS IS MYTH! NOWHERE can you find a coming at the 7th trumpet. His coming is CLEARLY laid out in chapter 19, over 3 1/2 years LATER.
THERE IS NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. Yes, the Kingdoms are transferred to Jesus at the midpoint of the week, because the 6000 year lease given to Adam is OVER at that point. But Jesus does NOT TAKE PHYSICAL POSSESSION until AFTER the week has finished on earth and the marriage and supper are finished in heaven.

LAMAD

Lamad, I didn't write that. I just copied and pasted from that bogus website n2thelight uses to show him some of the errors in it.

The only thing I wrote was what's on top in red:

Anyone can copy and paste from revelation12 and throw out opinions, even I can do that.

Who needs the bible when all the answers are on theseason.org, even when there are conflicting views.

But I'm logging off. Just dropping in one last time before signing off.

 

[iamlamad]

These verses are about Salvation by Faith in Jesus Christ and this apply for all believers including those who will live during the Great Tribulation... that will include you and me and all the readers still alive ,because there will be no pretrib rapture.

Perhaps you should read the verses that will PERTAIN to that time? Let's see what GOD SAYS about salvation during the days of great tribulation. Will there be a born again experience through the shed blood of Jesus? Or is that another man made theory?

Rev. 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


Hmmm. Absolutely NOTHING about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ which was the CENTER of Paul's gospel. Perhaps this is a DIFFERENT DISPENSATION with different rules? It seems during this time, all God requires is that people FEAR Him and worship Him.


LAMAD