The pre-tribulation rapture lie [moved]

[JulieB67]

Odd thing is that this topic is almost academic at this point since we are exceedingly close to the pre-trib rapture.

You didn't answer my question though, you posted

Paul tells us about those who will be resurrected in Christ, then mentions 3 occurrences, he calls them 'orders'.

I posted the verses,

Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

I said everything here occurs at the last trump. You said there are three occurances and Paul calls them orders in these verses, where is this in scripture that he says this?

Sorry, I was responding to your specific post, #148, as a clarification for others who believe otherwise as extra support for your position.

Oh ok, sorry I misunderstood.

 

[keras]

Being caught up in the air isn't the same thing as being caught up to heaven

1 Thess 4:17 says those who remain, [faithful Christians] will be caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus. The angels will do this at Jesus Return. Matthew 24:30-31
They, we; will always be with Him, in the holy Land, on earth.

Yes. I've read your interpretation of select verses on this topic while excluding others. You really don't need to waste time on me. I don't find any validity in your personal interpretations.

I posted six verses of the Words of Jesus. They have no validity?
The context of all of them reinforces the truth of them.

I don't like to use the word rapture. I believe Christ returns at the 7th trump. And the remnant are still here at the end of the 6th trump and before the 7th sounds,

Revelation 19:11 is quite clear; Jesus Returns at the Seventh Bowl, which is the Battle of Armageddon.

 

[Johan_1988]

View attachment 279510 If this post needs to be moved let me know before deleting it thanks.

** edit at like 110 comments or something — disclaimer I’m full of pride and full of sin. I constantly have to ask Jesus for forgiveness. After debating for a few hours or so my pride and sin only increased. I hope the truth finds everyone who reads this. The Bible will never lie to you trust in the Word of God ***

There are many on here and many in the world who believe in a 7 year tribulation and the Rapture. These are both lies.

Please read these verses and tell me when does Jesus’s people meet him in the air?

If your Bible is handy - Matt 24:27-31, Mark 13:24-26, 1Th4:16-17, Rev 19:11-21 KJV

Matt 24:27-31 KJV (Also Mark 13:24-27 KJV)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:16-17 KJV

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the


Rev 19:11-21 KJV

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Hi. I believe. The answer is right in front of you:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the.

As for the rapture and the 7 year tribulation. Just calling it lies without a good argument from scripture is just wrong. You should not just speak so rashly when you do not make your case first.

I would like to make my case here so please bear with me.

The Rapture:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Before this all the events recorded in Mat 24.

The seven year tribulation.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks (i.e 69 weeks) : the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

What do the weeks mean?
Each day is a year in prophecy:
Ezek 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

There is 1 week left which equals seven years since it has not come to pass (Dan 9:27):

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (death of Jesus Christ) , but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (Prince Titus of Rome A.D 71) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
This scripture has not been fulfilled yet and refers to the 7 year tribulation where the anti Christ will make a covenant with many nations and break it after 3 1/2 years, stop the Temple sacrifices and sit in the Temple making out that he is God.

Here is also a scripture which refers to the same thing:
Dan 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

 

[Jamdoc]

I believe God can pour out his wrath and not hurt the elect.

The seals are for knowledge.

I don't like to use the word rapture. I believe Christ returns at the 7th trump. And the remnant are still here at the end of the 6th trump and before the 7th sounds,


Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Revelation 11:14 "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Immediately when the 7th trump sounds, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of the Lord's.

and how exactly are the elect going to be spared of wrath that burns up all the grass on the planet turns the water into blood, makes the sun increase in intensity with scorching heat.... these are all things that affect the entire planet. Some may survive these cataclysms but they're certainly not going to be unaffected by them.
The seals are for protection, that is why the angels that are given charge to harm the earth and the seas and the trees are told to wait until the 144,000 are sealed.
I don't think the "remnant" in that verse is referring to the same thing as you do. I read it as the people who survive the earthquake consider their miraculous survival and repent and give glory to the Lord
THAT Remnant has fled into the wilderness after the abomination of Desolation (Revelation 12:14). They're not in Jerusalem.

and more pointedly. What exactly happens that there are an uncountable number of people suddenly in heaven that endured the tribulations in Revelation 7:9-14

 

[JacksBratt]

I don't expect to survive the tribulation. I expect that I would suffer and probably die to violence.
I build my house on the rock to weather the storm.
In my current life now? My own body persecutes me (quite literally, as it's my own immune system that wants to kill me). In a way, it prepares me for what I may have to endure, and I am comforted by knowing that if I die in a prison, I will be raised up. If am beaten to death in the streets or beheaded, I will be raised up. If starve to death in the woods fleeing for safety, I will be raised up. If I'm beaten and tortured and starved but not killed, I will still be looking forward to being raised up.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52

also, I don't think that the mark of the beast and beheadings part of the great tribulation will be 3.5 years. The Beast will have 1290 days of reigning before the Abomination of Desolation happens. (Daniel 12:11), and we know that the Great Tribulation days will be cut short for the elect's sake (Matthew 24:22). So we may only see a few months of that level of persecution. Before the Abomination of Desolation we'll have all kinds of problems though, war, pestilence, famine, 1/4 of the earth's population dying. I might not even make it to the abomination of desolation if all of it started today. It's okay though we pass from death into life.
I cannot be sure, but it does make me wonder about the meaning of Daniel 12:12. There is some blessing. Is it the rapture? I don't know, but there is a blessing if a person endures for 45 days (a month and a half) after the Abomination of Desolation.
Israel (the woman in Revelation 12) will be provided for in the wilderness when persecution comes to the Jews who do not accept the antichrist as their messiah for 1260 days.

Well, thanks for explaining your view. Please respect that others, who read the same bible as you do... believe differently and they also believe that you are just as wrong as you think they are......

No need to state that something is fact... when it is an on going debate among theologians and Christians of all knowledge levels.

 

[JacksBratt]

and what about those believers? Were they not warned about a flood coming? They knew what to expect. Jesus told us what to expect, the flood that we'd have to endure.

What "other believers"?... Noah preached for 100 years... the only ones that believed... got on the ark.

 

[Jamdoc]

Well, thanks for explaining your view. Please respect that others, who read the same bible as you do... believe differently and they also believe that you are just as wrong as you think they are......

No need to state that something is fact... when it is an on going debate among theologians and Christians of all knowledge levels.

Look brother, I worry about it because I'm afraid that a pretribber's faith will be weakened if they start experiencing tribulation. You might not be spiritually conditioned for the tribulation if you're wrong. I'm afraid that people will break, rather than being prepared for it and surviving, and dying, in faith no matter what happens to you.

 

[Jamdoc]

What "other believers"?... Noah preached for 100 years... the only ones that believed... got on the ark.

Where did I say other?
Noah was forewarned about what was going to happen and he prepared and was ready for the flood and he knew when it'd happen.
The rest of the world was unprepared and it came up on them as a surprise and killed them all.

 

[JacksBratt]

I believe God can pour out his wrath and not hurt the elect.

Absolutely He can... However, if you were an unbeliever and were experiencing all the hardship and plagues and absolute carnage of the tribulation.. and saw all those who claim Christ.. just sitting there unhurt.... Do you think that you would not put 2 and 2 together and become a believer?

 

[JacksBratt]

Look brother, I worry about it because I'm afraid that a pretribber's faith will be weakened if they start experiencing tribulation. You might not be spiritually conditioned for the tribulation if you're wrong. I'm afraid that people will break, rather than being prepared for it and surviving, and dying, in faith no matter what happens to you.

Thanks for the concern... However... very much another assumption

Please just stop assuming that you have all the answers and you are the only one who has it right.

Are you an educated theologian with years of seminary learning and diploma's? If not, then you are not going to convince me of anything. Because those people are debating it....

 

[JacksBratt]

Where did I say other?
Noah was forewarned about what was going to happen and he prepared and was ready for the flood and he knew when it'd happen.
The rest of the world was unprepared and it came up on them as a surprise and killed them all.

Yep. He was in constant dialog with God.. The rest of the world had no reason not to be prepared. Noah preached for 100 years and had many unbelievers working on the ark...

It was not a surprise.... as much as it was an "Oh crap, should have listened to Noah"

 

[JacksBratt]

.

 

[Zao is life]

View attachment 279510 If this post needs to be moved let me know before deleting it thanks.

** edit at like 110 comments or something — disclaimer I’m full of pride and full of sin. I constantly have to ask Jesus for forgiveness. After debating for a few hours or so my pride and sin only increased. I hope the truth finds everyone who reads this. The Bible will never lie to you trust in the Word of God ***

There are many on here and many in the world who believe in a 7 year tribulation and the Rapture. These are both lies.

Please read these verses and tell me when does Jesus’s people meet him in the air?

If your Bible is handy - Matt 24:27-31, Mark 13:24-26, 1Th4:16-17, Rev 19:11-21 KJV

Matt 24:27-31 KJV (Also Mark 13:24-27 KJV)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:16-17 KJV

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the


Rev 19:11-21 KJV

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I don't believe in a 7-year tribulation or a "Pre-trib rapture" but I hope this helps (see also the image):

The affliction (tribulation) of God's people in Egypt was one of the reasons for the plagues coming upon Egypt, but the plagues should not be conflated with the affliction (tribulation) of God's people.

God's people were still in Egypt while those plagues were being poured out; and the judgment of Pharaoh's armies = the deliverance of God's people.

In the midst of the description of the sixth of the seven last plagues or "bowls of wrath" in the Revelation Jesus interjects and says:

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." and then John closes the Revelation of the sixth bowl of wrath with:

"And he (the beast) gathered them (his armies) together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Revelation 16:15-16).

Now see in the image how many times "tribulation", "affliction". "great tribulation" etc are not talking about the tribulation of the saints:

 

[Lady Chuza]

Please provide a vers to support this. I will do the same. You have already said Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation yes?

now read 1Th 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please now tell me? When do the sons and daughters of Jesus who are left after the tribulation meet Jesus in the air? “Rapture”

Verse.

 

[Light of the East]

This is dangerous doctrine you proclaim. Why do you think it’s is before the tribulation? Does the Bible not say Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation? Does the Bible not say we meet him in the air as he returns to earth ?

please provide a verse that supports your claim. Thanks!

Just curious. Suppose this doctrine is wrong. What is so dangerous about making a mistake here? I don't see it in the same category of error as denying the Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and God in the flesh.

 

[roman2819]

I believe in A-millenium. The rapture is before judgement. I do not think there will be 3.5 or 7 years of tributlation.

The church went through tribulation 2000 years ago when it was first established. the tribulation was caused by opposition and persecution. It was caused by people who resented and resisted Christians, the tribulation was man-made. The tribulation 2000 years ago was not caused by God, instead He permiited it. Today, God will not caused a tribulation either. There is no widespread and systematic persecution of Christians today. There are pockets of persecution - same as other religions. Buddhists, Muslims, Christians and Jews are persecuted here and there, but it is not systematic persecution.

 

[lsume]

View attachment 279510 If this post needs to be moved let me know before deleting it thanks.

** edit at like 110 comments or something — disclaimer I’m full of pride and full of sin. I constantly have to ask Jesus for forgiveness. After debating for a few hours or so my pride and sin only increased. I hope the truth finds everyone who reads this. The Bible will never lie to you trust in the Word of God ***

There are many on here and many in the world who believe in a 7 year tribulation and the Rapture. These are both lies.

Please read these verses and tell me when does Jesus’s people meet him in the air?

If your Bible is handy - Matt 24:27-31, Mark 13:24-26, 1Th4:16-17, Rev 19:11-21 KJV

Matt 24:27-31 KJV (Also Mark 13:24-27 KJV)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:16-17 KJV

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the


Rev 19:11-21 KJV

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

There is a very Spiritual understanding of the Verses quoted from Mathew 24.

 

[BABerean2]

There is no widespread and systematic persecution of Christians today. There are pockets of persecution - same as other religions. Buddhists, Muslims, Christians and Jews are persecuted here and there, but it is not systematic persecution.

Have you watched the news lately?

.

 

[keras]

and more pointedly. What exactly happens that there are an uncountable number of people suddenly in heaven that endured the tribulations in Revelation 7:9-14

Revelation 7 never mentions heaven.
Those people who have passed thru great tribulation, are the Christians who stood firm in their faith during the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
They are gathered into all of the holy Land, as many prophesies say. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26, +

I believe in A-millenium. The rapture is before judgement. I do not think there will be 3.5 or 7 years of tributlation.

'rapture before Judgment'?
Reward before deeds are examined?
Go to heaven before any testing?

I suggest you get real and read a few verses like 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 10:11-13, James 1:12-15, +

There will be a 3 1/2 year period when those who have taken the 'mark of the beast', will have to endure the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, all as described in Revelation.
This IS Biblical, you cannot say it won't happen; only if you reject all of the Bible.

 

[Jamdoc]

Thanks for the concern... However... very much another assumption

Please just stop assuming that you have all the answers and you are the only one who has it right.

Are you an educated theologian with years of seminary learning and diploma's? If not, then you are not going to convince me of anything. Because those people are debating it....

So I don't share the same concern for those who are pre wrath, mid trib, or post trib because I feel that they know what is coming and prepare themselves for it even though they may suffer they condition their faith to endure.
Pre trib is not conditioning their faith. It's like you have people who train for marathons (post trib), or a 10k (pre wrath, mid trib), and people who doin't train at all (pre trib) and then you're told you have to run a 5k. The people who trained for the longer distances will be fine, since they're conditioned for endurance, but the people who didn't train will struggle even with the shorter distance and may give up early. Now if the race is a marathon, the people who trained for a marathon will do best, the people who trained for a 10k will struggle, but because they have at least trained some most will make it to the finish line even if their time is horrible and they had to walk for part of the way, and the people who didn't train at all, they will not finish the race, the race itself may be a hazard to their health. The only way that those who don't train can do well is if there never is a race they're told they have to do.