The pre-tribulation rapture lie [moved]

[Matt Torres]

View attachment 279510 If this post needs to be moved let me know before deleting it thanks.

** edit at like 110 comments or something — disclaimer I’m full of pride and full of sin. I constantly have to ask Jesus for forgiveness. After debating for a few hours or so my pride and sin only increased. I hope the truth finds everyone who reads this. The Bible will never lie to you trust in the Word of God ***

There are many on here and many in the world who believe in a 7 year tribulation and the Rapture. These are both lies.

Please read these verses and tell me when does Jesus’s people meet him in the air?

If your Bible is handy - Matt 24:27-31, Mark 13:24-26, 1Th4:16-17, Rev 19:11-21 KJV

Matt 24:27-31 KJV (Also Mark 13:24-27 KJV)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:16-17 KJV

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the


Rev 19:11-21 KJV

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[SeventyOne]

Please read these verses and tell me when does Jesus’s people meet him in the air?

At some point prior to the Trib.

 

[Matt Torres]

This is dangerous doctrine you proclaim. Why do you think it’s is before the tribulation? Does the Bible not say Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation? Does the Bible not say we meet him in the air as he returns to earth ?

please provide a verse that supports your claim. Thanks!

 

[SeventyOne]

This is dangerous doctrine you proclaim. Why do you think it’s is before the tribulation? Does the Bible not say Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation? Does the Bible not say we meet him in the air as he returns to earth ?

please provide a verse that supports your claim. Thanks!

There's nothing dangerous about it. He certainly comes back at the end of the Trib, but Paul describes the resurrection has 3 orders in 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, one was past and the other two still future. The first was fulfilled as Christ fulfilled the Feast of Firstfruits through His resurrection and the resurrection of some saints in Matthew 27:52-53. The second is the coming Paul references a few verses later when He states "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed", and this is demonstrated as being prior to wrath in both Revelation 12:5 and Isaiah 26:17-21. The third he mentions is at the end when Christ comes to reign. This one is the one you are looking forward to, the one at the end. I'm looking forward to the next one in the proper order.

So, you are right about Him coming at the end but wrong about His next coming on the schedule. Personally, I'd be very careful calling something biblical a lie prior to a full examination first, because I'm guessing some of this stuff you didn't already know.

 

[Douggg]

This is dangerous doctrine you proclaim. Why do you think it’s is before the tribulation? Does the Bible not say Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation? Does the Bible not say we meet him in the air as he returns to earth ?

please provide a verse that supports your claim. Thanks!

Before the beginning of the Day of Lord. And before the beginning of the great tribulation. Both are on my chart on the timing of the Rapture.

 

[solid_core]

Before the beginning of the Day of Lord. And before the beginning of the great tribulation. Both are on my chart on the timing of the Rapture.

View attachment 279500

What covenant is Jesus supposed to confirm in the future?

 

[Matt Torres]

Before the beginning of the Day of Lord. And before the beginning of the great tribulation. Both are on my chart on the timing of the Rapture.

View attachment 279500

This is dangerous doctrine you have put forward.

your chart is all wrong.
Let’s keep this simple. Does Jesus return after the tribulation or before ? Please provide a verse to back up ur claim. Thanks!

 

[Douggg]

What covenant is Jesus supposed to confirm in the future?

What are you pointing to on my chart? Confirmation of the covenant for 7 years? That will be by the Antichrist, the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26, perceived messiah to the Jews, Israel.

 

[solid_core]

What are you pointing to on my chart? Confirmation of the covenant for 7 years? That will be by the Antichrist, the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26, perceived messiah to the Jews, Israel.

View attachment 279502

Whats your proof that its about antichrist?

 

[Douggg]

This is dangerous doctrine you have put forward.

your chart is all wrong.
Let’s keep this simple. Does Jesus return after the tribulation or before ? Please provide a verse to back up ur claim. Thanks!

My anytime Rapture timing charts corresponds to my chart on the 7 year 70th week.

 

[Matt Torres]

Please answer the question if you can.
When does Jesus return to earth? Before or after the great tribulation? Please provide a vers to support your claim thanks!

 

[Douggg]

Whats your proof that its about antichrist?

The function of "the"Christ is to be the King of Israel, descended from King David to lead Israel and the world into the messianic era of peace and safety, when men beat their swords into plow shares and learn war no more.

The scribs and pharisees recognized this function of the messiah, the Christ, when they mocked Jesus while he was on the cross.

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
__________________________________

In John 12, as Jesus was arriving into Jerusalem, fulfilling Daniel 9:25, on Palms Sunday, he was hailed by the crows as the King of Israel, who comes in the name of the Lord.

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

____________________________________________

To become the Antichrist and confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant which the Jews still hold to, the pronce who shall come, will have to be anointed the King of Israel - but he comes in his own name.

Anti, the prefix means against and/or instead of. In the case of the Antichrist, he will be instead of and against - Jesus, the rightful King of Israel.

The confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant was a requirement that Moses made to all future leaders of Israel, a big speech to the nation of Israel, on the feast of tabernacles, on a 7 year cycle.

The Antichrist will make that speech from the temple mount, beginning the 7 year 70th week.

 

[Matt Torres]

My anytime Rapture timing charts corresponds to my chart on the 7 year 70th week.

View attachment 279503

Please answer the question if you can.
When does Jesus return to earth? Before or after the great tribulation? Please provide a vers to support your claim thanks!

 

[Douggg]

Please answer the question if you can.
When does Jesus return to earth? Before or after the great tribulation? Please provide a verse to support your claim thanks!

Jesus returns to earth to end the great tribulation. Accompanied with his saints. And the armies of heaven.

Jesus's return is on my chart down at the bottom right. The great tribulation will last 1335 days.

 

[Matt Torres]

Jesus returns to earth to end the great tribulation. Accompanied with his saints. And the armies of heaven.

Agreed! Last question (thanks for your time) When do people meet Jesus in the air? Please provide a vers to prove your claim. Thanks!

 

[solid_core]

The function of "the"Christ is to be the King of Israel, descended from King David to lead Israel and the world into the messianic era of peace and safety, when men beat their swords into plow shares and learn war no more.

The scribs and pharisees recognized this function of the messiah, the Christ, when they mocked Jesus while he was on the cross.

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
__________________________________

In John 12, as Jesus was arriving into Jerusalem, fulfilling Daniel 9:25, on Palms Sunday, he was hailed by the crows as the King of Israel, who comes in the name of the Lord.

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

____________________________________________

To become the Antichrist and confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant which the Jews still hold to, the pronce who shall come, will have to be anointed the King of Israel - but he comes in his own name.

Anti, the prefix means against and/or instead of. In the case of the Antichrist, he will be instead of and against - Jesus, the rightful King of Israel.

The confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant was a requirement that Moses made to all future leaders of Israel, a big speech to the nation of Israel, on the feast of tabernacles, on a 7 year cycle.

The Antichrist will make that speech from the temple mount, beginning the 7 year 70th week.

I am not sure what you are talking about. You said its from Daniel 9:27:

25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince [there shall be] seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then [the time] shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, Christ shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations.
27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and till the end of time the fullness shall be put to the desolation.

The context is clearly about Christ and about what happened in the first century (sacrifices taken away, temple desolated), Christ destroyed the city and the temple with Titus. How can you suddenly put antichrist to the text, out of the blue?

 

[Douggg]

Agreed! Last question (thanks for your time) When do people meet Jesus in the air? Please provide a vers to prove your claim. Thanks!

At the time of the rapture and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. And before the beginning of the great tribulation.

Matt, I have studied these issues for almost 50 years. It took a long time to get to the point where I could make that chart. And my chart on the rapture timing.

 

[Douggg]

The context is clearly about Christ and about what happened in the first century (sacrifices taken away, temple desolated), he deostroyed the city and the temple with Titus. How can you suddenly put antichrist to the text, out of the blue?

Claiming that Titus is the prince who shall come performed no function in confirming the covenant for 7 years. The prince who shall come, is the future Antichrist. Coming from the EU, as the little horn person.


First, I would go with the KJV of Daniel 9:27. It is more clear.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

If you go talk to the Jews (Judaism) at their sites. You will find their interpretation of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 - means a "renewal" of the Mt. Sinai covenant. That is one of the reasons the big speech by the Antichrist will coincide with what they believe.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

There are two phases of Christ’s second coming. In the first phase, He will come to the clouds and in the second He will come here down to Earth, on the Mount of Olives.

The reason for Jesus’s arrival on Mount of Olives will be so that He establishes the Kingdom of God here on Earth. When He arrives on Mount of Olives, He will not take anyone anywhere. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and their trial shall begin. And when the trial over all of the nations ends, the millennia Kingdom of God here on Earth will begin. But before He appears on Mount of Olives, He promised that He will arrive to the clouds, not here down on Earth. And that will be for one and only reason, and that is that He will takes us somewhere. He will not stay here on Earth, He will just take us with Him.

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Tess. 4:17)

And this is how we will be with the Lord Jesus forever. That’s something completely different from what the Lord says in these two verses:

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (Rev. 1:7)

For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24:27)

And when we see these three verses, that one talks about the arrival to the clouds, and the other verses talk about arrival here on Earth (Mount of Olives) than we have to recognise that this is the mystery that Apostle Paul talked about in 1 Corin. 15:51 and that is ‘Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed’

When Jesus comes down here on Earth, when He actually touches the ground, He does not speak about a transformation, He does not speak about being caught up in the clouds (the rapture), He is talking about that, that when He arrives here on Earth, all of the nations will be crying. And the reason for everyone's cry will be because of who they all not have believed in. They will see Him and all of His glory and might with their own eyes.

But before that, the reason Jesus comes to the clouds will be that He takes everyone with Him who loves Him, who completely trust Him and obeys Him, everyone who is waiting for Him. So that He takes them to The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Because the secret of the two phases of Christ’s second coming is that when He comes in to the clouds, He will take the Church with Him ‘In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.’
And the promise He has given us that we will go there and the secret is in that this is where The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be. And when we attend this Supper, the world will be in the Great Tribulation. And this Great Tribulation is the time that will be between the two phases of Jesus’s second arrival. For whilst the Supper of the Lamb will be happening in Heaven, the Beast (antichrist) will be ruling the whole World.

The difference between Jesus arrival to the clouds and His arrival here on Earth will be that in the exact same time one group of people will attend The Supper of the Lamb, the second group of people will experience the Great Tribulation. And that is why the Bible all says that: Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” (Rev 12:12).

For the prophecy from Daniel 7:23 to be fulfilled, where Daniel talks about the final Beast – the antichrist that he will rule the entire World and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. For the final Beast and all of this to happen, something must happens first. As Apostle Paul says, there is something that is holding the Beast from ruling the enitre World (the Great Tribulation). That day will not come just like that. Someone, who is holding the antichrist ‘s reveal and thus preventing from the Great Tribulation from happening, must leave the Earth. That someone must be with His own power stopping from antichrist ruling. And Paul says in 2 Thess. 2:6-7 ‘And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
When Jesus comes to the clouds, we will go home and the Holy Spirit with us. And the reason is that the Holy Spirit came down here on Earth for His Church and He will leave with them. How He came down, He will also leave. And He is the one that is holding the antichrist, because the Church is still here on Earth. While the Holy Spirit and the Church are here on Earth, the antichrist can’t rule the World. And once the Church is raptured, and the Holy Spirit departs to Heaven with them, because there is no Christian (born in Spirit) here on Earth, the antichrist is revealed (because now no one is holding him up anymore) that is when the Great Tribulation takes place, and will last until Jesus comes down to Earth on Mount of Olives and He will destroy the antichrist with His breast and thus the Great Tribulation will end.

 

[Matt Torres]

At the time of the rapture and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. And before the beginning of the great tribulation.

Matt, I have studied these issues for almost 50 years. It took a long time to get to the point where I could make that chart. And my chart on the rapture timing.

Please provide a vers to support this. I will do the same. You have already said Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation yes?

now read 1Th 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please now tell me? When do the sons and daughters of Jesus who are left after the tribulation meet Jesus in the air? “Rapture”