The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

DaDad · Jan 2, 2019

Major1 said:
... the "UNVEILING of the Boob of Daniel". ...

I think you meant "Book" of Daniel.
Or maybe you wrote what you intended ...
Thanks,
DaDad

Major1 · Jan 2, 2019

BobRyan said:
After repeated efforts to try and get one of the participants here to read page 1 of this thread -- specifically the first two posts... and their repeated request that the details/texts be posted at this point in the thread... here is post #2 where we see the process that gets used in the Daniel 7 style of judgment that is done in heaven just as God specifies.

=======================================

Heb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

Daniel 7 tells us that the judgment is - pre-advent. and that it is based on the content of what is in "the books" of heaven. (Call it "investigative").

Daniel 7 - says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

Romans 2 - details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

None of that is arguing that God does not already know the future.

Daniel 7 says that in the courtroom are the "myriads and myriads" of sinless beings. And that "the court sat and the books were opened"..

It is not a matter of "God trying to figure something out" - rather like the case of the book of Job - it is God demonstrating something "to the group".

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isaiah 44:22)

Notice how in Isaiah 44 it is "past tense"? (hint: that is before the cross)

And in Ezek 28 -- Satan has already been consumed - reduced to ashes
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

And when God speaks to Abraham "I have made you" a father of many nations when in fact at the time - Abraham had none.

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glorified form in Matthew 17 - on the mount of transfiguration BEFORE the cross. Fully forgiven before the blood of Christ had been shed. For Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" - the benefits of that sacrifice applied all the way back to Adam under the "ONE" Gospel of Gal 1:6-9, preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 and the basis of the new birth, forgiveness and justification in all ages.

============================

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

That was the Bible.

This next bit is mere creative writing

Daniel 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

The Ancient of Days --- sinless
Those attending Him -- sinless

"Investigate" facts recorded in books
The court sat ... the books were opened
-- the action of the sinless beings described there.
Myriads standing before Him - are standing for service - His angels.

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment was made in favor of the saints

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Everyone in that courtroom - sinless beings.

I guess that I am the ONE you wanted to go back and read the original OP.

So now it seems you want me to explain more Protestant Christian theology for you.

I am happy to do if it will help your understanding of the Word of God instead of Ellen G. White.

You used .........….
Heb 8:1 tells us thatHeb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

The priesthood of Christ is performed in heaven, and that he has entered into the true tabernacle there. All which preceded was type and shadow; this was that which the former economy had adumbrated. In the previous chapters the apostle had shown that he who sustained this office was superior in rank to the Jewish priests; that they were frail and dying, and that the office in their hands was changing from one to another, but that that of Christ was permanent and abiding. He now comes to consider the real nature of the office itself; the sacrifice which was offered; the substance of which all in the former dispensation was the type. This was the "principal thing" - κεφάλαιον kephalaion - the "head," the most important matter; and the consideration of this is pursued through theHeb 8:1, Hebrews 9:1, and Hebrews 10:1 chapters Hebrews 8-10.

Then you said...……………

Daniel 7 - says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

NOPE. That is an SDA teaching exclusively and is not Biblical for many reason...…..

God already knows who are His own - Adventists teach that God must make an investigation to determine whose names to keep in the Book of Life, and whose to blot out.

But The Bible teaches that God already knows who the righteous are:------------------

John 10:14...….
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep".

2nd Tim. 2:19....
The Lord knoweth them that are His. (2 Tim. 2:19)

The Bible is very clear that God already knows exactly who is righteous and who is not. He does not need to carry out any investigation to determine who the righteous are.

Then you used Romans 2 to say....
Romans 2 - details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

Paul says that God will judge GOOD PEOPLE. HE will also judge RELIEGIOUSE people.
But HE is NOT going to judge Christians my friend. Our sin has already been judged and paid for by Jesus Christ.

Paul will show the logical conclusion of this concept. In short, it means that all people are doomed on the basis of their deeds. Nobody can possibly be judged by God as having done good and not evil in this life.

For now, though, Paul wants to speak to those who are under the law: those who practice Judaism. They will not be protected from God's judgment because they have the law or because they are circumcised. It's important to remember that Paul speaks from personal experience, as a former Pharisee and zealous adherent to Judaism himself.

Then you said...…….

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

NOPE! THE SAINTS ARE NOT talking about New Testament believers!!!!!!!

THIS is the point where your SDA theology falls apart. This group of SAINTS are Old Testament SAINTS.

The Church is not sceen in the Revelation after chapter 4:1. The focus of the 7 year tribulation is not about the judgment of the Saints or the church but ISRAEL AND THE JEWS!!!!!

Then you said...…………

Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment was made in favor of the saints

NOPE! That is completely in error as again, you are confusing OLD TEST saints with the CHURCH AGE SAINTS.

NO where in Daniel is there a reference to a future church age group of believers.

Daniel Chapter 7 verse 22 refers to the Jews as the saints because we as Christians were never promised the kingdom. Christians were promised HEAVEN and the Jews were promised THE HOLY LAND/PROMISED LAND.

READ the Bible as it is very clearly said in Dan. 9:24..............
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for YOUR PEOPLE and your HOLY CITY
to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy. "

Daniel 9:20..........
"And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God".

I know that you are enthusiastic about your SDA theology but how in the world can you or anyone read those words MY PEOPLE OF ISRAEL and then change it to mean CHRISTIANS will be judged??????????

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2019

BobRyan said: ↑
After repeated efforts to try and get one of the participants here to read page 1 of this thread -- specifically the first two posts... and their repeated request that the details/texts be posted at this point in the thread... here is post #2 where we see the process that gets used in the Daniel 7 style of judgment that is done in heaven just as God specifies.

=======================================

Major1 said:
I guess that I am the ONE you wanted to go back and read the original OP.

So now it seems you want me to explain more Protestant Christian theology for you.
I am happy to do if it will help your understanding of the Word of God instead of Ellen G. White.

On the contrary - I am simply asking that you post as someone informed by the texts on "page 1" of this thread and the points raised. You are free to differ - but to continually ask that the same texts be posted over again before you respond to them - is not normal for CF and frankly is not reasonable.

This is a fact that has nothing to do with Ellen G. White who is not quoted at all by me "on page one" or any page of this thread. Those little diversions do not help your argument as if not reading the texts and just talking about Ellen White "would suffice".

You used .........….
Heb 8:1 tells us thatHeb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

True I did mention "the main point" in Hebrews 8 after first pointing you to the texts in Daniel 7 and the "investigative judgment".

The priesthood of Christ is performed in heaven, and that he has entered into the true tabernacle there.

True - the OT symbols point to the work of Christ in heaven as our high priest - in addition to the work of Christ on the cross as the "Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only - but for the sins of the whole world". 1 John 2:2

Then you said...……………

Daniel 7 - says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

And pointed you to Dan 7:22 where we are told about the time (future) when "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22

Bible details matter.

Major1 said:
NOPE.

yep. They do matter and Dan 7:22 does say "22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom."

Major1 said:
That is an SDA teaching exclusively

Nope.

That is a Bible text and contrary to your apparently wild speculation - SDAs did not write aniel 7.

Bible details matter. Even if you re-imagine them to be SDA Bible details.

This is not a matter of 'God trying to figure something out' as you seem to have us presume - rather it is just as in Job 1 and 2 - God is demonstrating something for the observers. Just as Christ said He does in Matthew 7 where we are told that the rule in judgment is "by their fruits you shall know them" -- and looking at the tree does not change the tree. Looking at trees is not how a bad tree becomes a good tree. It merely shows what the tree already is at the time you look at it. Obviously.

No wonder that post included such a significant portion of Romans 2 in it - showing how God's judgment works.

Bible details matter.

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2019

Major1 said:
Then you used Romans 2 to say....
Romans 2 - details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

I really do like the fact that you are taking this text-by-text. What a great change.

Major1 said:
Paul says that God will judge GOOD PEOPLE. HE will also judge RELIEGIOUSE people.
But HE is NOT going to judge Christians my friend.

Until you read the text.

2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ"

Romans 2
O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Bible details matter.

Our sin has already been judged and paid for by Jesus Christ.

you just "quoted you" again... you knew that right?

Major1 said:
Then you said...…….

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

NOPE!

Yep! That text is true - and as I pointed out - it shows that the judgment spoken of is taking place at a point in time that is log after the fall of the pagan Roman empire which took place in the 5th century so then... it would be some future point -- "after that".

THE SAINTS ARE NOT talking about New Testament believers!!!!!!!

Not true at all. (More bible - less creative writing please)

Acts 9 -- But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem;

Acts 9:32
[ Peter’s Ministry ] Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.

Major1 said:
THIS is the point where your SDA theology falls apart. This group of SAINTS are Old Testament SAINTS.

Major1 said:

Not even remotely true - the events Daniel 7 describes regarding the 4 the empire - the Pagan Roman empire do not finish until the 5th century A.D. And it is "after that" that we see the 1260 years of the dark ages followed by the Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7:22 that ends the persecution of the saints.

Bible details matter.

The Church is not sceen in the Revelation after chapter 4:1.

Totally false.

They are obviously in Rev 19,20,21,22 as every Christian on the planet will admit.

But what is more - they are in Rev 15 where the saints are singing the Song of Moses and the Lamb.

More than that - they are in Rev 12 where we see the birth of Christ, then Christ's ascension into heaven then the fall of Lucifer from heaven as a result of the victory Christ won at the cross in that ongoing war between Christ and Satan... then the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints.

Major1 said:
Then you said...…………

Major1 said:
Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment was made in favor of the saints

NOPE!

Yep!

Dan 7

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2019

Major1 said:
READ the Bible as it is very clearly said in Dan. 9:24..............
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for YOUR PEOPLE and your HOLY CITY
to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy. "

Daniel 9:20..........
"And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God".

1. All Bible timelines are contiguous so no shredding them to bits. that means the 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned by Daniel in Dan 9:1-9 "remain in tact" as one 70 year timeline AND it means that the 490 years (70 weeks of years) in Dan 9:24 are ALSO immune to effort of those that would slice and shred that prophetic timeline to bits insert massive gaps of undefined length into it. Those 490 years point to the ministry of Christ at his first coming as well as His death on the cross after 3.5 years of ministry. Literal Israel had a 490 probationary timeline given to them to welcome the Messiah and evangelize in harmony with Christ.

2. And like Dan 9 - all apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year 70 weeks "of years" in the case of Daniel 9. 490 years.

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2019

After repeated efforts to try and get one of the participants here to read page 1 of this thread -- specifically the first two posts... and their repeated request that the details/texts be posted at this point in the thread... here is post #2 where we see the process that gets used in the Daniel 7 style of judgment that is done in heaven just as God specifies.

=======================================

Heb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

Daniel 7 tells us that the judgment is - pre-advent. and that it is based on the content of what is in "the books" of heaven. (Call it "investigative").

Daniel 7 - says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

Romans 2 - details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

None of that is arguing that God does not already know the future.

Daniel 7 says that in the courtroom are the "myriads and myriads" of sinless beings. And that "the court sat and the books were opened"..

It is not a matter of "God trying to figure something out" - rather like the case of the book of Job - it is God demonstrating something "to the group".

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isaiah 44:22)

Notice how in Isaiah 44 it is "past tense"? (hint: that is before the cross)

And in Ezek 28 -- Satan has already been consumed - reduced to ashes
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

And when God speaks to Abraham "I have made you" a father of many nations when in fact at the time - Abraham had none.

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glorified form in Matthew 17 - on the mount of transfiguration BEFORE the cross. Fully forgiven before the blood of Christ had been shed. For Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" - the benefits of that sacrifice applied all the way back to Adam under the "ONE" Gospel of Gal 1:6-9, preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 and the basis of the new birth, forgiveness and justification in all ages.

============================

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

That was the Bible.

This next bit is mere creative writing

YeshuaFan said:
The Bible teaches that Christians shall be examined for their good works, in order to see if eternal rewards are kept/lost, but NEVER as to if keeping eternal life or not! !

klutedavid said:
Hello Bob.

You said.

=======================
Bob:
Daniel 7 - (which apparently you are not reading) says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"
======================

I read that text (Daniel 7:10), where does that verse say 'sinless beings'. May I ask what translation your reading from?

Daniel 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

The Ancient of Days --- sinless
Those attending Him -- sinless

"Investigate" facts recorded in books
The court sat ... the books were opened
-- the action of the sinless beings described there.
Myriads standing before Him - are standing for service - His angels.

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment was made in favor of the saints

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Everyone in that courtroom - sinless beings.

YeshuaFan said:
Bhema seat of Christ is Christian judgment

Predicted in Daniel 7 --

unto eternal rewards , NOT for loss of eternal life,

Not true at all - as Romans 2 points out.

And of course Rom 6:23 says the "reward" for sin - is the lake of fire - second death. As opposed to eternal life.

Major1 · Jan 3, 2019

BobRyan said:
I really do like the fact that you are taking this text-by-text. What a great change.

Until you read the text.

2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ"

Romans 2
O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Bible details matter.

you just "quoted you" again... you knew that right?

Yep! That text is true - and as I pointed out - it shows that the judgment spoken of is taking place at a point in time that is log after the fall of the pagan Roman empire which took place in the 5th century so then... it would be some future point -- "after that".

Not true at all. (More bible - less creative writing please)

Acts 9 -- But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem;

Acts 9:32
[ Peter’s Ministry ] Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.

Not even remotely true - the events Daniel 7 describes regarding the 4 the empire - the Pagan Roman empire do not finish until the 5th century A.D. And it is "after that" that we see the 1260 years of the dark ages followed by the Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7:22 that ends the persecution of the saints.

Bible details matter.

Totally false.

They are obviously in Rev 19,20,21,22 as every Christian on the planet will admit.

But what is more - they are in Rev 15 where the saints are singing the Song of Moses and the Lamb.

More than that - they are in Rev 12 where we see the birth of Christ, then Christ's ascension into heaven then the fall of Lucifer from heaven as a result of the victory Christ won at the cross in that ongoing war between Christ and Satan... then the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints.

Yep!

Dan 7
PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

You said...…………..
"I really do like the fact that you are taking this text-by-text. What a great change."

NOPE! I asked YOU to post what YOU wanted explained anf YOU refused and came up with all kinds of excuses.

ALL I know is the SCRIPTURES.. ….I do not listen to or believe people like Mr. Miller and Mrs. WHite.

Then you said...……….

Until you read the text.
2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".

Here again you show your confusion and your lack of Bible understanding and your penchant for believing Mrs. White INSTEAD OF THE WORD OF GOD.

2 Corinthians 5:10 my dear friend is literally the Judgment Seat of Christ or the BEMA Seat.

As always, The context of the verse gives us clues as to who and what is being judged.

Paul has just finished talking about his ambivalence about which is better:
being here on earth in his earthly tent (i.e., our corruptible bodies) or being with Christ in heaven eternally, inhabiting a "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" in 5:1. Paul is torn because he realizes staying on earth means fruitful ministry for Christ as an apostle to the Gentiles, some of whom have already become followers of the Way, and some who will yet become Jesus' followers.

In his first letter to the Corinthian believers in chapter 3:13 Paul expands upon, what will happen at the judgment seat of Christ, where

". . . each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work"

Therefore, the correct Bible exegesis is that the The bema is a judgment of those whose names are written in God's book of life.

Their names are there not because of works, since salvation is not something earned by good works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but by God's grace. While on earth in their mortal bodies they placed their faith in the one who died, the just for the unjust, that he might bring them to God (1 Peter 3:18). Their salvation is assured, but their level of reward will be determined at the bema, where some of those who were considered "first" in this life will be last in the life to come, and some who were last will be first (see Matthew 19:30; Mark 10:31; and Luke 13:30).

Since you do not seem to understand, please notice in the 1st 9 verses of chapter 5 Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS. "WE MUST ALL APPEAR" is literally "ALL BELIEVERS MUST APPEAR".

Every single Christian will in fact be judged on how they lived the Christian life.

We will ALL give a report to Jesus Christ as to why we did or what we believed.

THIS IS NOT the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev. 20:11-15. That is for UNBELIEVERS of all the ages.

The Christian's sin was JUDGED and paid for on the cross of Calvary by the Lord Jesus Christ. Our standing before Him as explained in 2 Corth. 5:10 is to RECEIVE THE REWARDS WE COULD HAVE WON AFTER WE WERE SAVED.

It is at this time that Jesus will say to us...……"WELL DONE THOU GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT"!

Major1 · Jan 3, 2019

BobRyan said:
1. All Bible timelines are contiguous so no shredding them to bits. that means the 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned by Daniel in Dan 9:1-9 "remain in tact" as one 70 year timeline AND it means that the 490 years (70 weeks of years) in Dan 9:24 are ALSO immune to effort of those that would slice and shred that prophetic timeline to bits insert massive gaps of undefined length into it. Those 490 years point to the ministry of Christ at his first coming as well as His death on the cross after 3.5 years of ministry. Literal Israel had a 490 probationary timeline given to them to welcome the Messiah and evangelize in harmony with Christ.

2. And like Dan 9 - all apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year 70 weeks "of years" in the case of Daniel 9. 490 years.

The Bible details matter my friend.

God has two redemptive plans, one for national Israel, and one for Gentiles during the “church age.” …Therefore, church age, or the “age of grace,” is to be seen as that period of time in which God is dealing with Gentiles prior to the coming of the kingdom of God during the millennium”.
Read more: What Is The Church Age?

I would recommend highly Dr. Walvoord's outline and teaching from...…..
Bible Study - 490 Years of Daniel 9:24-27

About 125 years ago Sir Robert Anderson unlocked the secret of Daniel’s 70 weeks when he teamed up with the London Royal Observatory to discover that prophetic years are 360 days in length and consist of 12 months of 30 days each. This is also the only way you can make the three measures of the Great Tribulation (1260 days, 42 months, or 3 1/2 years) come out the same. Therefore the 70 weeks of Daniel consist of 490 years of 360 days each. He published this discovery in a book called The Coming Prince, a commentary on Daniel’s 70th Week.

From their research, we also know that exactly 483 years after the decree of Artaxerxes the Lord Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey to shouts of “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord” (Luke 19:38)! It was the only day in His life that He permitted His followers to proclaim Him as Israel’s King, fulfilling Daniel’s prophecy to the day! The Hebrew in Daniel 9:25 calls Him Messiah the Prince, denoting the fact that He was coming as the Anointed Son of the King and was not yet crowned King Himself.

In Luke 19:41-45, Jesus reminded the people of the specific nature of this prophecy. As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it and said...…………
“If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace–but now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

He held them accountable for knowing Daniel 9:24-27.

A few days later He extended that accountability to those who would be alive in Israel during the End Times. “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand– then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. (Matt 24:15-16)

They will also be required to understand Daniel 9.

Daniel 9:26...……...
After the sixty two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue till the end and desolations have been decreed.

First came 7 sevens (49 years) and then 62 sevens (434 years) for a total of 69 sevens or 483 years. The Hebrew word for Anointed One is Mashiach (Messiah in English). At the end of this 2nd period, their Messiah would be cut off, which means to be executed or literally destroyed in the making of a covenant, having received none of the honor, glory, and blessing the Scriptures promised Him.

Make no mistake about it. Jesus had to die so the prophecy of Daniel could come true. No one else in Heaven or on Earth could accomplish this. We can only imagine how different things would have been if they had accepted Him as their Messiah and let Him die for their sins so He could bring them into everlasting righteousness with His resurrection. But of course God knew they wouldn’t, so He had to do things the hard way.

Do you realize what that means? It wasn’t killing the Messiah that put the Jews at odds with God. After all, He came to die for them. No. It’s that in killing Him, they refused to let His death pay for their sins so He could save them. This had the effect of making His death meaningless to them. That’s what severed the relationship.

Because of that, we now get the first hint that all would not go well. Following the crucifixion, the people of a ruler yet to come would destroy Jerusalem, and the Temple—the same Temple that God decreed would be consecrated. The Israelites would be scattered abroad, and peace would elude the world.

We all know that Jesus was crucified and 38 years later the Romans put the torch to the city and the Temple destroying both. Surviving Jews were forced to flee for their lives, and in the ensuing 2000 years, I don’t believe a single generation has escaped involvement in a war of some kind.

After the crucifixion something strange happened: ........
The Heavenly clock stopped. 69 of the 70 weeks had passed and all that was prophesied to happen during those 483 years had come to pass, but there was still one week (7 years) left.

There are hints in the Old Testament that the clock had stopped several times before in Israel’s history when for one reason or another they were either under subjugation or out of the land. And in the New Testament we’re also given hints that while God is dealing with the Church, time ceases to exist for Israel (Acts 15:13-18).

But the clearest indication of the stopped clock is that the events foretold in Daniel 9:27 simply haven’t happened yet.

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2019

Major1 said:
You said...…………..
"I really do like the fact that you are taking this text-by-text. What a great change."

NOPE! I asked YOU to post what YOU wanted explained anf YOU refused and came up with all kinds of excuses.

ALL I know is the SCRIPTURES.. ….I do not listen to or believe people like Mr. Miller and Mrs. WHite.

Hint there is no "Miller and Mrs White" on this thread except for your own insert into it of that sort.

1. All I did was repost what was already on page 1... post #1 and Post #2. The very thing you kept asking to see - and the very thing I said was "on page 1" in the OP.
2. You now respond as if you are seeing it for the first time. What is the deal with that?

Major1 said:
Then you said...……….

Until you read the text.
2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".

Here again you show your confusion and your lack of Bible <obligatory rant deleted here>...

2 Corinthians 5:10 my dear friend is literally the Judgment Seat of Christ or the BEMA Seat.
As always, The context of the verse gives us clues as to who and what is being judged.

Paul has just finished talking about his ambivalence about which is better:

Paul makes it clear that "we must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ" 1 Cor 7:19 ...

Here is the sequence again ...

Major1 said: ↑
Paul says that God will judge GOOD PEOPLE. HE will also judge RELIEGIOUSE people.
But HE is NOT going to judge Christians my friend.

Until you read the text.

2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ"

"We" - had to included Paul and Paul has to be accepted as being a Christian.

Not only Christians but "each person" and "every soul" also called "everyone" as we see in Romans 2.

Romans 2
O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
=====================

Major1 said:
In his first letter to the Corinthian believers in chapter 3:13 Paul expands upon, what will happen at the judgment seat of Christ, where

". . . each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work"

That is bait-and-switch. The context of 2 Cor 5 is "this life" vs death and future resurrection where we get the new body of 1Cor 15.

You pull in 1 Cor 3 as if that is some sort of purgatory judgment for Christians. But purgatory is not a Bible doctrine -- even though you seem to want to pull it in to 1 Cor 3 and 2Cor 5.

There is no mention of the book of life in either 2 Cor 5 or 1 Cor 3.

Therefore, the correct Bible exegesis is that the The bema is a judgment of those whose names are written in God's book of life.

You have added your own insert at that point - so that is the first question that your statement raises.

Their names are there not because of works, since salvation is not something earned by good works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but by God's grace. While on earth in their mortal bodies they placed their faith in the one who died, the just for the unjust, that he might bring them to God (1 Peter 3:18). Their salvation is assured

Circular reasoning to insist that 2 Cor 5:10 works based judgment gives "heaven" for evil/bad works -- it is not at all found in 2Cor 5 or Romans 2 or 1 Cor 3.

Romans 6:23 says that heaven is certainly not the "reward" for evil/bad deeds.

2 Cor 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

please notice in the 1st 9 verses of chapter 5 Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS. "WE MUST ALL APPEAR" is literally "ALL BELIEVERS MUST APPEAR".

Dan 7:22 Judgment passed in favor of the saints...
2 Cor 5:10 you say is a judgment of believers.

I say Dan 7:22 and 2Cor 5:10 judgment are descriptions of the same judgment event.

Are you making your case or mine?

Every single Christian will in fact be judged on how they lived the Christian life.

And Romans 2 gives us "the detail" just as Christ summarized it in Matthew 7 - "by their fruits"

Major1 · Jan 3, 2019

BobRyan said:
Hint there is no "Miller and Mrs White" on this thread except for your own insert into it of that sort.

1. All I did was repost what was already on page 1... post #1 and Post #2. The very thing you kept asking to see - and the very thing I said was "on page 1" in the OP.
2. You now respond as if you are seeing it for the first time. What is the deal with that?

Paul makes it clear that "we must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ" 1 Cor 7:19 ...

Here is the sequence again ...

Until you read the text.

2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ"

"We" - had to included Paul and Paul has to be accepted as being a Christian.

Not only Christians but "each person" and "every soul" also called "everyone" as we see in Romans 2.

Romans 2
O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
=====================

That is bait-and-switch. The context of 2 Cor 5 is "this life" vs death and future resurrection where we get the new body of 1Cor 15.

You pull in 1 Cor 3 as if that is some sort of purgatory judgment for Christians. But purgatory is not a Bible doctrine -- even though you seem to want to pull it in to 1 Cor 3 and 2Cor 5.

There is no mention of the book of life in either 2 Cor 5 or 1 Cor 3.

You have added your own insert at that point - so that is the first question that your statement raises.

Circular reasoning not at all found in 2Cor 5 or Romans 2 or 1 Cor 3.

Dan 7:22 Judgment passed in favor of the saints...
2 Cor 5:10 you say is a judgment of believers.

I say Dan 7:22 and 2Cor 5:10 judgment are descriptions of the same judgment event.

Are you making your case or mine?

Every single Christian will in fact be judged on how they lived the Christian life.
And Romans 2 gives us "the detail" just as Christ summarized it in Matthew 7 - "by their fruits"

Happy New Year Bob!

Unfortunately my own sanity is not going to allow me to continue repeating myself over and over to you and then reading the same comments over and over from you.

Israel is Israel and the Church is the church. The church has not replaced Israel and the prophetic words of the Bible have NOT YET TAKEN PLACE.

I just can not keep telling you the same thing over and over so for that reason I am out.
I am going to leave you with the false teachings of your MENTOR, Ellen G. WHite more to show the people reading this and for you. You have already commited your life to believing her false teaching but there may be some who just are not aware of how far from the Word of God that she was.

Maybe we can talk some other time about some other Bible theology but this subject of an Investigative Judgment of Christians is nothing but jibber jabber from the mind of

Mrs. White and the Adventist pioneers who developed a unique doctrine that is described as the "Investigative Judgment." This doctrine teaches that Christ began investigating and judging His people in 1844.
NOT ONE SINGLE BILE VERSE VALIDATE SUCH AN EVENT.

She said that Jesus started with the dead believers, and when He is finished with their cases, He will begin judging the living believers near the end of time.
NOT ONE SINGLE BILE VERSE VALIDATES THIS TEACHING.

During this Investigative Judgment God either blots out the sins of the believer, or he removes the name of the believer from the Book of Life. When His judgment is complete, the door of probation will be shut and Jesus will return to earth to reward His people according to their works.
NOT ONE SINGLE BIBLE VERSE VALIDATES THIS.

Yes, anyone, ME, YOU, can take several Scriptures out of CONTEXT and make them say anything I want them to say. But that is the spirit of anti-Christ not the spirit of God.

Ellen White: Every individual MUST pass the Investigative Judgment
"How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the Judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, EVERY INDIVIDUAL MUST STAND IN HIS LOT, at the end of the days."

BIBLE: Believers in Christ do not enter into judgment
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24 RSV

Ellen White: Our sins are NOT BLOTTED OUT until AFTER the investigative judgment
"But, according to the unerring word of God, every man will be judged and rewarded according as his works have been, and we are admonished to so speak and to so do as 'they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.' When sin has been repented of, confessed, and forsaken, then pardon is written against the sinner's name; BUT HIS SINS ARE NOT BLOTTED OUT UNTIL AFTER THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT."

BIBLE: Our sins are blotted out when we repent
"I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee." Isaiah 44:22
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." Acts 3:19

"…and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7
Ellen White: By 1850, Jesus' work of investigating the cases of believers was "almost finished"
"I then saw Brother Edson that he must gird on the whole armor and stand in readiness to go, for a journey was before him, and that souls needed help and that JESUS' WORK WAS ALMOST FINISHED IN THE SANCTUARY..." (1850)4

BIBLE: The Atonement was finished on the Cross
Jesus said, "It is finished." John 19:30
But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb. 10:12-14

The Bible teaches that Christ's atonement on the cross has perfected (past tense) His children. Christians are not made perfect during the Investigative Judgment period. If we are "in Christ," then we were made perfect 2,000 years ago through Christ's perfect sacrifice on Calvary.

Rom. 8:1......….
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom. 5:9...……...
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I am not going to respond anymore to your opinions but I do want to wish you a Good bye my friend and may the Lord Bless you richly!

Major out.

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2019

Major1 said:
Happy New Year Bob!

Happy new year Major!

Israel is Israel and the Church is the church.

Jer 31:31-33 the "house of Israel and the house of Judah" is the specific entity being offered the NEW Covenant - in Jer 31 AND in Hebrews 8.

I and many others here - are New Covenant Christians. Sorry if that does not fit your doctrine.

I just can not keep telling you the same thing over and over so for that reason I am out.
I am going to leave you with the false teachings of your ...<obligatory rant deleted here> ..

you seem to be losing focus at that point.

by contrast - I prefer Bible "details" -- because Bible details matter. Feel free to start other subjects if that is your interest. Just repeating your failed assertions does not form a compelling argument in favor of them.

Each time I present you with the comparison of the Bible to your speculation you instinctively want to talk about "Ellen White" -- "instead". How transparently flawed for the objective unbiased reader to see right out there in the open.

YeshuaFan · Jan 4, 2019

Major1 said:
I guess that I am the ONE you wanted to go back and read the original OP.

So now it seems you want me to explain more Protestant Christian theology for you.

I am happy to do if it will help your understanding of the Word of God instead of Ellen G. White.

You used .........….
Heb 8:1 tells us thatHeb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

The priesthood of Christ is performed in heaven, and that he has entered into the true tabernacle there. All which preceded was type and shadow; this was that which the former economy had adumbrated. In the previous chapters the apostle had shown that he who sustained this office was superior in rank to the Jewish priests; that they were frail and dying, and that the office in their hands was changing from one to another, but that that of Christ was permanent and abiding. He now comes to consider the real nature of the office itself; the sacrifice which was offered; the substance of which all in the former dispensation was the type. This was the "principal thing" - κεφάλαιον kephalaion - the "head," the most important matter; and the consideration of this is pursued through theHeb 8:1, Hebrews 9:1, and Hebrews 10:1 chapters Hebrews 8-10.

Then you said...……………

Daniel 7 - says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

NOPE. That is an SDA teaching exclusively and is not Biblical for many reason...…..
God already knows who are His own - Adventists teach that God must make an investigation to determine whose names to keep in the Book of Life, and whose to blot out.

But The Bible teaches that God already knows who the righteous are:------------------

John 10:14...….
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep".

2nd Tim. 2:19....
The Lord knoweth them that are His. (2 Tim. 2:19)

The Bible is very clear that God already knows exactly who is righteous and who is not. He does not need to carry out any investigation to determine who the righteous are.

Then you used Romans 2 to say....
Romans 2 - details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

Paul says that God will judge GOOD PEOPLE. HE will also judge RELIEGIOUSE people.
But HE is NOT going to judge Christians my friend. Our sin has already been judged and paid for by Jesus Christ.

Paul will show the logical conclusion of this concept. In short, it means that all people are doomed on the basis of their deeds. Nobody can possibly be judged by God as having done good and not evil in this life.

For now, though, Paul wants to speak to those who are under the law: those who practice Judaism. They will not be protected from God's judgment because they have the law or because they are circumcised. It's important to remember that Paul speaks from personal experience, as a former Pharisee and zealous adherent to Judaism himself.

Then you said...…….

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

NOPE! THE SAINTS ARE NOT talking about New Testament believers!!!!!!!

THIS is the point where your SDA theology falls apart. This group of SAINTS are Old Testament SAINTS.

The Church is not sceen in the Revelation after chapter 4:1. The focus of the 7 year tribulation is not about the judgment of the Saints or the church but ISRAEL AND THE JEWS!!!!!

Then you said...…………
Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment was made in favor of the saints

NOPE! That is completely in error as again, you are confusing OLD TEST saints with the CHURCH AGE SAINTS.

NO where in Daniel is there a reference to a future church age group of believers.

Daniel Chapter 7 verse 22 refers to the Jews as the saints because we as Christians were never promised the kingdom. Christians were promised HEAVEN and the Jews were promised THE HOLY LAND/PROMISED LAND.

READ the Bible as it is very clearly said in Dan. 9:24..............
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for YOUR PEOPLE and your HOLY CITY
to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy. "

Daniel 9:20..........
"And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God".

I know that you are enthusiastic about your SDA theology but how in the world can you or anyone read those words MY PEOPLE OF ISRAEL and then change it to mean CHRISTIANS will be judged??????????

Daniel was a prophecy written to the Jews who would be alive in national Israel right at the time of the Great tribulation and the Second Coming of jesus, nothing to do with the Church itself...
Clear example that for the Sda, Ellen White and her teachings supercede those of jesus and his Apostles themselves!

BobRyan · Jan 4, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
Daniel was a prophecy written to the Jews who would be alive in national Israel right at the time of the Great tribulation

No it isn't

It describes the fall of the Roman empire as the 4th beast in Daniel 7 is known to be... that is long after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and long before the 2nd coming or tribulation.

YeshuaFan · Jan 4, 2019

BobRyan said:
No it isn't

It describes the fall of the Roman empire as the 4th beast in Daniel 7 is known to be... that is long after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and long before the 2nd coming or tribulation.

At that time, Michael the archangel will stand up for Daniel's people, so Israel, in the last days!

Major1 · Jan 4, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
Daniel was a prophecy written to the Jews who would be alive in national Israel right at the time of the Great tribulation and the Second Coming of jesus, nothing to do with the Church itself...
Clear example that for the Sda, Ellen White and her teachings supercede those of jesus and his Apostles themselves!

Correct my friend!

And when anything contradicts the teaching of Jesus Christ, the God-Man it is wrong, it is heresy.

Major1 · Jan 4, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
At that time, Michael the archangel will stand up for Daniel's people, so Israel, in the last days!

Daniel 12:1...…
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book."

BobRyan · Jan 4, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
At that time, Michael the archangel will stand up for Daniel's people, so Israel, in the last days!

We are talking about Daniel 7 and it includes the fall of the pagan Roman empire splitting into 10 divisions. Nothing at all like the Daniel 12 event you are quoting from.

Back to the subject of the thread and the time frame for the Danile 7:9-10 judgment described in that chapter

YeshuaFan · Jan 5, 2019

Major1 said:
Daniel 12:1...…
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book."

Refers to the same great tribulation Jesus mentioned, as the one at end of the Age!

YeshuaFan · Jan 5, 2019

BobRyan said:
We are talking about Daniel 7 and it includes the fall of the pagan Roman empire splitting into 10 divisions. Nothing at all like the Daniel 12 event you are quoting from.

Back to the subject of the thread and the time frame for the Danile 7:9-10 judgment described in that chapter

Michael the archangel stands up for the jewish nation at end of this age, right before the second coming of Christ!

Major1 · Jan 5, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
Refers to the same great tribulation Jesus mentioned, as the one at end of the Age!

That is correct. I just posted the actual Bible Scriptures for Mr. Ryan's sake.

The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

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