The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

[YeshuaFan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Where in my OP do I say "Daniel 7 says the SDA church is the remnant"?

My focus is on the actual topic of this thread.



True - because as all protestant reformers freely admitted - Daniel 7 describes 4 world empires including the fall of the pagan Roman empire - which happens long after the destruction of Jerusalem and so we have 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints that happened in real history - predicted in the 1260 year timeline of Daniel 7.



That all protestant reformers would be tossed aside as just so many JW's and Mormons would probably have been a surprise to them.

The point remains... ad hominem remarks against it not withstanding.

The reformers were great on salvation theology, not as great on eschatology, as basically kept intact much of what Rome taught on it!

 

[YeshuaFan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Where in my OP do I say "Daniel 7 says the SDA church is the remnant"?

My focus is on the actual topic of this thread.



True - because as all protestant reformers freely admitted - Daniel 7 describes 4 world empires including the fall of the pagan Roman empire - which happens long after the destruction of Jerusalem and so we have 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints that happened in real history - predicted in the 1260 year timeline of Daniel 7.



That all protestant reformers would be tossed aside as just so many JW's and Mormons would probably have been a surprise to them.

The point remains... ad hominem remarks against it not withstanding.

Daniel was addressing God dealing with Jews in the future, still yet to happen!

 

[YeshuaFan]

There is NO pre-advent Judgment for Christians!

We all have to stand before Bhema seat of Jesus, not the judgment that EW talked about!

 

[Major1]

We all have to stand before Bhema seat of Jesus, not the judgment that EW talked about!

You are preaching to the choir my brother!

 

[Major1]

Daniel was addressing God dealing with Jews in the future, still yet to happen!

That is a correct statement. The whole problem here stems from Bob and others believing in "Replacement Theology" along with the false teachings of EGW.

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel was addressing God dealing with Jews in the future, still yet to happen!

nope -- it starts with Babylon (in the past) then Persia, Greece and Pagan Rome (which was future to Daniel) -- then the fall of pagan Rome --

All Protestant Reformers knew this.

And then of course the 1260 years of dark ages.... then the Dan 7:9-10 judgment "passed in favor of the saints" -- and Paul reminds us that Christians are included in that term "the saints"

The reformers were great on salvation theology, not as great on eschatology, as basically kept intact much of what Rome taught on it!

Catholics also said that about the Reformers.

Clearly we differ.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Scripture describes the next prophetic event as the Appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13...…….
“Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,”

2 Tim. 4:8...………..
“Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.”

Paul wrote to Timothy,

1 Tim. 6:11-15...………...
“...keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,”

And then we have this magnificent verse:

2 Tim. 4:1...…….
“I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:”

This is stunning. Paul mentions judgment:

a) for the living and the dead (two different groups)
b) at His appearing and His kingdom (two different times)

This may be the clearest distinction between the rapture and the second coming. The living are those who are born again, even if they are “asleep in Jesus,” or dead in Christ. The Living are judged at the Judgment seat of Christ, where Jesus will offer rewards based on our works.

Scripture puts the harpazo of the Church before the time of Jacob’s Trouble. The rapture is how the Lord removes His body from the earth prior to Daniel’s 70th week, because the Church can't be part of the time of Jacob's Trouble.

Now WHY is there discussion on IF there is a Rapture and when it takes place???????

A lot of the misunderstanding around the timing of the rapture comes from an evil root: replacement theology. This satanic doctrine falsely teaches that the Church has replaced Israel—a lie from the father of lies which results in (or at least supports) deception around the rapture. I believe the confusion or disagreement can be decreased or eliminated when we understand the purpose of the Church and grasp the distinctions between the Church and Israel.

I am a Reformed Baptist, and while no longer holding to the pre trib Rapture view, would agree with you that the Eschatology is preMil, and nowhere near how the Sda see it as being!

 

[BobRyan]

We all have to stand before Bhema seat of Jesus,

And we see that in Romans 2 and in Daniel 7

======================

Daniel 7

The Ancient of Days

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

11 Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking;...

The Son of Man Presented
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

Dan 7:
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

 

[YeshuaFan]

nope -- it starts with Babylon (in the past) then Persia, Greece and Pagan Rome (which was future to Daniel) -- then the fall of pagan Rome --

All Protestant Reformers knew this.

And then of course the 1260 years of dark ages.... then the Dan 7:9-10 judgment "passed in favor of the saints" -- and Paul reminds us that Christians are included in that term "the saints"



Catholics also said that about the Reformers.

Clearly we differ.

Its days, not years!

 

[BobRyan]

I am a Reformed Baptist, and while no longer holding to the pre trib Rapture view, would agree with you that the Eschatology is preMil,

True that there is pre-millenniual tribulation - but I think the Protestant Reformers -- all historicists would not object to pre-mill tribulation and no pre-trib or mid-trib rapture.

 

[YeshuaFan]

And we see that in Romans 2 and in Daniel 7

Daniel 7 is revelation 20, and Bhema Judgment is NOT the Investigative one EW wrote on!

 

[YeshuaFan]

True that there is pre-millenniual tribulation - but I think the Protestant Reformers -- all historicists would not object to pre-mill tribulation and no pre-trib or mid-trib rapture.

There were pretty much A Mil, some Post Mil!

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 7 is revelation 20, and Bhema Judgment is NOT the Investigative

Dan 7, 2 Cor 5:10, Romans 2 are all the same judgment - the investigative judgment where judgment is passed in favor of the saints.

The post-mill judgment of Rev 20 is the judgment of the wicked

 

[YeshuaFan]

nope -- it starts with Babylon (in the past) then Persia, Greece and Pagan Rome (which was future to Daniel) -- then the fall of pagan Rome --

All Protestant Reformers knew this.

And then of course the 1260 years of dark ages.... then the Dan 7:9-10 judgment "passed in favor of the saints" -- and Paul reminds us that Christians are included in that term "the saints"



Catholics also said that about the Reformers.

Clearly we differ.

, the reformers did great in area of salvation, but pretty much kept intact A mil theology in regards to eschatology!

 

[BobRyan]

, the reformers did great in area of salvation, but pretty much kept intact A mil theology in regards to eschatology!

I am certainly not in favor of A-mill but they made up for it by being historicists which was the correct model in the days of Christ for predicting the first coming of Christ based on Daniel 9. Once a method is proven to be correct -- stick with it.

 

[Major1]

And we see that in Romans 2 and in Daniel 7

Again, we see by your exegesis why so much of your theology is wrong.
It has its roots in Replacement Theology which is totally wrong!

Romans 2 DOES NOT explain the Bema Seat of Christ.

However Romans 14:10-17 says...……
“For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. . . . So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God” .

2nd Corth. 5:10 tells us, ………..
“We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

The judgment seat of Christ, therefore, involves believers giving an account of their lives to Christ after they were saved.

The judgment seat of Christ does not determine salvation; that was determined by Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf and our faith in Him. All of our sins are forgiven, and we will never be condemned for them. We should not look at the judgment seat of Christ as God judging our sins, but rather as God rewarding us for our lives.

Then as for Daniel 7 being the Bema seat...….NO!

Daniel 7 speaks of the "SAINTS" which are the JEWS.

The error of replacement theology has the Church replaceing the Jews and that is completely non-Biblical.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I am certainly not in favor of A-mill but they made up for it by being historicists which was the correct model in the days of Christ for predicting the first coming of Christ based on Daniel 9. Once a method is proven to be correct -- stick with it.

The correct method to intreprfete prophecy is in the futurist and literal mo0de, as Jesus fulfilled to a T all of the OT prophecies of His first coming, and so will fulfill all those of His Second Coming!

 

[BobRyan]

, the reformers did great in area of salvation, but pretty much kept intact A mil theology in regards to eschatology!

I am certainly not in favor of A-mill but they made up for it by being historicists which was the correct model in the days of Christ for predicting the first coming of Christ based on Daniel 9. Once a method is proven to be correct -- stick with it.

The correct method to intreprfete prophecy is in the futurist and literal mo0de, as Jesus fulfilled to a T all of the OT prophecies of His first coming, and so will fulfill all those of His Second Coming!

Not according to the proven method of real life. As we see in Daniel 9:1-8 regarding Jeremiahs 70 year prophecy, and the Dan 7 490 year (70 weeks of years) prophecy only historicist works. So we can see those prophecies today and that same historicist model continues to give the right result.

Go with what works ... so then less creative writing will be needed.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, we see by your exegesis why so much of your theology is wrong.
It has its roots in Replacement Theology which is totally wrong!

Until you read Daniel 7 and Romans 2.

Dan 7
The Ancient of Days

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

11 Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking;...

The Son of Man Presented
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

Dan 7:
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Romans 2 DOES as does Daniel 7 explain the Bema Seat of Christ.
===========================
======================

Details in Daniel 7

1. the judgment of vs 9-10 happens after the fall of the 4th empire in the list given in Daniel 7. So then after the fall of pagan Rome - which is long after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D -- and before the second coming

2. The judgment of Daniel 7 involves "judgment passed in favor of the saints"

3. Persecution of the saints on Earth continues until that judgment completes.

4. The second coming happens after the judgment completes.

5. Myriads and myriads in the courtroom in heaven -- the court sits, the books are opened and judgment takes place.

6. All apocalyptic timelines are contiguous as are all prophetic timelines in the Bible -- apocalyptic or not.

7. All apocalyptic timelines use "day for year" expansion just as does Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks that are 490 years not 490 solar days.

 

[BobRyan]

However Romans 14:10-17 says...……
“For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. . . . So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God” .

2nd Corth. 5:10 tells us, ………..
“We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

True -- and all judgment deals with the exact deeds done. As recorded in the books of heaven --

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

2 Cor 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

And what is the "reward" for "bad deeds"?
Rom 6:23 "the wages of sin is death"