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The power of sin is the law

Discussion in 'Exposition & Bible Study' started by stuart lawrence, Sep 10, 2017.

  1. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Do you deny that Scripture says that it is not too difficult?

    Romans 7:21-25 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

    Paul delighted in obeying God's Law and served it with his mind, but there was another law waging war against the law of his mind and making him captive to the law of sin. So the reason for Paul's failure to God's Law was not because God many unreasonable demands that were too difficult for him to obey, but because of the law of sin.

    For example, if God had commanded us to cross a street, then that would be a task that most people would have no trouble accomplishing, but if their was a football team in the middle of the street with the goal to prevent us from crossing it, then most people would not be able to accomplish that task. However, the reason for our failure would not be because it is too difficult to cross streets, but something was actively trying to hinder us from obeying the command.

    So if God had given laws that were simpler to obey, then Paul would have still had the same problem obeying them due to the law of sin. So the solution is not that we need to be freed from laws that are too difficult, but rather we need to be free from sin so that we can be free to obey God's Law, and it has always been through faith in Christ that this is accomplished. Grace is the power of God to overcome sin in our lives.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  2. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    You have simply avoided answering the very simple question, as I imagined you would. Why is Paul a slave to breaking Gods laws if they are easy to obey?
    Did Paul not understand the law of sin? Did he not understand how it is to be overcome in order to obey Gods laws? Was Paul ignorant of spiritual truth?
    Didn't Paul have faith in Christ to overcome sin?
    So why is the person mentioned in rom7:14-24 a slave to sin?
     
  3. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I avoided nothing, but rather I gave the reason that he gave for why he was a slave to sin, namely the law of sin. I'm sure he understood the law of sin because he experienced it. If you've ever struggled with the temptation to sin when you know and desire to do what is right, then you have also. For example, it is simple to tell the truth, we've all struggled with the temptation to lie, so there is something hindering us from doing what is simple. Prior to Paul knowing Christ he did not understand how overcome sin and was ignorant of that spiritual truth, but after knowing Christ he had faith in him to overcome sin. The person mentioned in Romans 7:14-24 is a slave to sin because of the law of sin.

    I'll again ask: do you deny that Scripture says that it is not too difficult?
     
  4. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I have previously answered your question. However, to obey the letter of the law is impossible, for, the letter kills( 2cor3:6) To obey the spirit of the law is not impossible. Two completely different things.
    I will ask you some other questions as you cannot respond to the one previously asked, hopefully you can these.
    In rom 7-14-24 it speaks of someone who is a slave to sin. Paul states:

    The law is spiritual but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin/ breaking Gods laws rom7:14
    Yet in the previous chapter he states if you are a slave to sin it leads to death(6:16)
    So according to what Paul wrote, the man mentioned in 7:14 is on the road to death.
    In rom6:17&18 Paul tells the Romans they USED(USED) to be slaves to sin, but by following the truth of the gospel message they have been set free from being slaves of sin and are now slaves of righteousness leading to holiness.
    So is Paul, writing to people who are more mature in the christian faith than he is, people who live far more Godly lives than Paul does? For he states in 7:14 he IS, not WAS a slave to sin.

    If you are something, or someone's slave they are your master, for a slave allways has a master:

    For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace( rom6:14)

    So why is sin Pauls master in rom 7:14-24?
     
  5. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The only power sin has, is when a perceived law is ignored.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  6. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Without the law you cannot be conscious of sin
     
  7. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us
    1john1:8

    Through the law we become conscious of sin
    Rom3:20
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, I have not claimed to be without sin, but the reason for my sin is not because God's Law is too difficult, but because of the law of sin. If God's Law was impossible for me to obey, then I could not I could not be held responsible for failing to obey it.

    Indeed, so if you have read the Law, then you have become conscious that God consider an abomination and a sin to eat unclean animals and can no longer claim ignorance as an excuse.

    I'll ask again: Do you deny that Scripture says that it is not too difficult?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  9. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    When you respond to post 24 that was written to you, I will then respond to your post.
    Your question was answered in that post
     
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I have responded twice now and I have no idea whatsoever why you think that I have not responded.
     
  11. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Please answer the specific questions posed in post 24, then I will respond to your post, only fair
     
  12. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Incidentally. I will NOT discuss which particular laws Christians are to observe, ie clean/unclean foods. This thread is NOT about that. If you wish to discuss that subject yet again, please find an appropriate thread with which to do so. This thread is about why the power of sin is the law. You are welcome to post in it, but please respect the fact of what the debate is about. And please confine your comments to the subject matter of the thread
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Ah, sorry, I missed that post.

    The letter of the law and the spirit of the law both refer to the same law, so the distinction is not in regard to difference sets of laws, but in regard to the manner in which the law is obeyed with respect to exactly how it is written or according to the intent behind the law. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, and in John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, which are not his own, but that of the Father, so the intent behind obeying the Law is to grow in an intimate relationship with God based on faith and love. However, God's Law can be outwardly obeyed according to the letter without being focused on growing in a relationship with God, and this is something God has always disdained because it is completely missing the whole point of the Law, and is therefore just as Lawless and just as assuredly leads to death as living in disobedience the the Law. In Philippians 3:8, Paul counted pursuing the Law without being focused on growing in a relationship with Christ as being rubbish. In Romans 9:30 - Romans 10:10, the reason why Israel failed to obtain righteousness was because they didn't understand that the goal of pursuing the Law was relationship with Christ for righteousness for everyone who has faith, and instead they tried to pursue the Law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own.

    In Romans 6:12, Paul said what we should not let sin reign in our lives, and sin is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4), so he is saying that we should live in obedience to the Law. We should not present our bodies as instruments of what God has revealed in His Law to wicked, but rather we should present our bodies as instruments of what God has revealed in His law to be righteous (6:13). For the law of sin will no longer have dominion over us because we are not under the law of sin but under grace (6:14). According to Psalms 119:29, David asked God to show His grace to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so if we are under grace, then we are under the Law. He went on to say that being under grace did not mean that we were permitted to transgress the Law (6:15). We are to present ourselves as obedient slaves to God, which means to submit to His Law. We are not to present ourselves as salves of sin in transgression of the Law, which leads to death, but as slaves of obedience, which leads to righteousness (6:16). We used to be slaves of sin, but have now come to obey the Law (6:17). We have been set free from the law of sin to become slaves of righteousness (6:18). We once presented ourselves as slaves to impurity and Lawlessness leading to more Lawlessness, but are now to present ourselves as slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification (6:19).

    I think Romans 7:24-25 clearly indicates that Paul was speaking about his state before he had been delivered by Christ, so sin was Paul's master in Romans 7:14-24 because he had not yet been delivered from the law of sin.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  14. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I will NOT discuss which laws the believer is supposed to observe. That is not what this thread is about.
    Just to be clear. In your view, does rom 7:14-24 concern Saul the pharisee or Paul the Christian?
    Only you frequently post verses from this section, so i would like to be clear as to what your view is, as you did NOT addressed the specific questions raised
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I did not discuss specific laws that we are supposed to observe in my last post and will respect your request not to do so. I again have no why you think that I have not addressed your question because I have answered it thoroughly. Paul never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), but Romans 7:14-24 is speaking about prior to when he had been delivered from the law of sin by Christ, so it was prior to when he was also a Christian. I've seen some interpretations of Romans 7 that suggest that Paul was not even speaking about himself since he was speaking about a time when he didn't know it was a sin to covet and Romans 7:9 says that he was one alive apart from the law. Paul would have been taught to obey the Law from a very young age, but either way, he was speaking about the state of someone who had not yet been delivered from the law of sin by Christ.
     
  16. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Then we agree on something: Saul the pharisee is being spoken of in rom7:14-24, not Paul the Christian.
    In relation to rom 7:7-11

    Paul felt alive before the law came to him for there was no condemnation then
    When did Saul the pharisee make a personal commitment to God and therefore come under the law? Thirteen isn't it for a Jewish boy.
    At that point he knew he must not lust for lust was sin. He would have known it broke the commandment: Thou shalt not covet
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  17. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I will tell you why I understand what rom 7:7-11 pertains to specifically. Looking back at when I made a personal commitment to God at the age of ten I could quote word for word rom7:7-11 as my personal experience:

    I would not have known what lust truly was if not for the comnandment: Thou shalt not covet. But sin, took occasion of the commandment to arouse in me all manner of concupiscence.
    I had felt alive once, a normal, happy, healthy kid, but when the commandments came to me sin( consciousness) sprang to life and I died/ felt condemned. The commandment I believed would give me life eternal, if I obeyed it, instead brought death/ condemnation for I could not keep it. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment deceived me, and by it slew me.
    However, I knew Gods law to be holy,, just and good.

    My personal testimony of when I made a commitment to God at a young age
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  18. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Hi Stuart

    1) What is it that makes Paul a slave to sin?
    2) Where does sin reside?
     
  19. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    1)
    The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin.
    2)
    Sin is the transgression of the law

    You and I have previously discussed if the law exists, no point in rehashing what has already been discussed previously
     
  20. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    A relationship with Christ based on faith and love is the key to everything in the Bible. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, it says that obedience to the Law will bring life and a blessing, in Proverbs 3:18, the Law is described as a tree of life, and in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if you want to enter into life, then obey the commandments, so why did the commandment that promised life prove death to Paul? Because he was missing the whole point of pursuing the Law and did not have a relationship Christ. In Matthew 7:21-23, the Pharisees were doing good things in accordance with the Law, yet they were nevertheless counted as being workers of Lawlessness because Christ said he never knew them. So it is possible for someone to become committed to serving God without ever knowing Him, and I do not think that Paul ever knew God until the Damascus Road. Paul's Bar Mitzvah marked his commitment to God and to live as a responsible adult before God and before men, though he would have been taught to obey God's Law prior to that, and very likely had the entire Law memorized by that age, yet his commitment to obey the Law was doomed to failure because he didn't know Christ. It is only by God's grace through faith that we have the power to overcome Lawlessness.

    I will again ask: Do you deny that Scripture says that it is not too difficult?
     
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