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The power of sin is the law

Discussion in 'Exposition & Bible Study' started by stuart lawrence, Sep 10, 2017.

  1. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    The name of your thread is "The power of sin is the Law" what do you base that belief on, can you verify it?
     
  2. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
     
  3. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference between knowing the law, and having the law under a personal commitment to God. Your question has been repeatedly answered. Your problem is, in not reading the Bible as a cohesive whole, and having a very different view as to what obeying Gods laws entails, from myself and many others.

    However, this thread pertains to why the power of sin is the law.
    Once again, please confine your comments to the subject title of the thread.
    If there is a thread you would like me to comment in concerning whether Gods laws are easy to obey or not, I will happily post an opinion there. Just give me a link , though I have in this thread responded to your repeated verses from Deuteronomy
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  4. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I asked people to give their opinions as to why Paul stated:
    The power of sin is the law 1cor15:56
     
  5. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    BTW
    The Pharisees faultlessly observed what is often titled the legalistic law, but they could not obey what is often titled the moral law. On the inside they were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean. So which comnandment were they predominantly breaking?
    Back to rom 7:7
     
  6. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Ok, but it isn't an opinion, it is a Biblical truth.

    The Law is the strength of sin because, without the Law there is no sin.

    Rom. 4:15
    Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

    1Jn. 3:4
    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
     
  7. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The reason why I keep asking is because you said that you would answer and have not. If I assume the affirmative, then you are left with the position of not consider Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and Romans 10:5-10 to be part of Scripture. If that is not your position, then feel free to clarify.

    It is because I realized that I was not viewing the Bible as a cohesive whole that I changed by view of God's Law to my current position. To view God's eternal Law as changing is to not view the Bible as a cohesive whole. Many Christian believe the the NT is essentially God saying "and now for something completely different" and again this is not viewing the Bible is cohesive whole.

    The topic of this thread is directly related to Romans 7 and thus our ability to obey the law.
     
  8. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    The strength of the Law only pertains to those who are under the Law, but we as Christians are not under the Law, but under Grace

    Rom. 6:14
    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    Gal. 5:18
    But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
     
  9. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I will write this one last time.
    There is a big difference between following after the Spirit of the law, and trying to obey the letter of the law. One can be done, the other cannot be done.
    Isaiah stated:

    Your covenant with death will be annulled
    Your agreement with the grave will not stand
    Ch28:18

    If Gods laws were so easy to obey, why is it called a covenant of death?

    Paul states:
    The letter kills( present tense)
    2cor 3:6
    In the same chapter Paul the Christian states the law written on stone is the ministry of death and condemnation. Why if it is so easy to obey?
    Peter, referring to the law states:
    Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear
    Acts 15:10

    Why does Peter state that if the law is easy to obey?

    I do not recognise a previous comment of yours referring to the law being easy to obey because you don't commit murder and honour your parents.

    Now please, make a comment as to why Paul stated the power of sin is the law. That's what this thread is about. I am tired of endlessly going over the same old things with you( no offence meant)
    Let's try and discuss the title of the thread, something different
     
  10. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree. The power of sin relies on the christian being under a righteousness of observing the law
     
  11. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    BTW
    I'm allways happy to discuss rom ch7.
    It most certainly does pertain to this discussion
     
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Can you point to a single instance in the Bible where it is considered to be moral to disobey God's commands? The Bible does not make a distinction between moral and non-moral laws because morality is based on God's character and God's laws are based on His character, morality is in regard to what we ought to do, and we ought to obey God. When Paul said he obeyed the Law faultlessly he did not make any exception the moral law. It was not impossible for the Pharisees to behave morally, but far from it.

    Furthermore, there is no such thing as a legalistic law given by God in the Bible because legalism has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of God's Law and of His character. It makes it out to be that what God primarily wants from us it our outward obedience when the truth is that He has always disdained outward obedience while our hearts are far from Him because obedience to God has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. The Pharisees were great at outward obedience, but they were whitewashed tombs on the inside because they did not have a relationship with God based on faith and love, which means that they were predominantly breaking the greatest two commands, and thus were counted as being workers of Lawlessness that Jesus never knew.
     
  13. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    In phil3:6 Paul cannot mean as a pharisee he faultlessly observed the entire law.
    He told timothy he was the chief of sinners. And we know he could not obey the TC( rom ch7)
    That's bad exegesis
     
  14. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    The NIV states well the full meaning of phil3:6

    As for zeal persecuting the church. As for legalistic righteousness, faultless

    We know Saul the pharisee could not obey the TC. He spent nearly a whole chapter explaining that!
     
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.

    I recognize that you do not believe that the Law is too hard for us to obey, but I want you to acknowledge that Scripture directly says that it is not too hard for us and that if your position is true, then God lied.

    I agree, but God's Law was always meant to be obeyed according to the spirit rather than the letter. It was never intended to be outwardly obeyed apart from growing in a relationship with God based on faith and love.

    It should be clear from verses 14-17 that it is speaking about a covenant made with death with the realm of the dead that is in opposition to God rather than one made by God.

    According to Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Law is a ministry of life and blessing for obedience and a ministry of death and curses for disobedience, so the fact that the Law brings death for disobedience is hardly a good justification to disobey it. However, obeying the law according to the letter is just as bad as living in disobedience to it because both lead to death, which is why we need to obey the Law according to the spirit as it was always intended.

    Is your position that Peter and the Jerusalem Council considered God to be a liar? Do you think they were also in disagreement with the extremely high praises for the Law expressed in the Psalms? David said he meditated on the Law day on night, that he loved the Law, that he delighted in obeying it, that those who obey it will be blessed, that he wanted God to show His grace to him by teaching him to obey the Law, etc., and Paul also said that he delighted in obeying it (Romans 7:22), so I think he and the average Jew was on the same page as David and would have never consider this precious gift from God to be a heavy burden that no one could bear. I realized that the view of God's Law that I had been taught didn't conform to the view expressed in Scripture and that I needed to conform my view to Scripture, which led me to see that Scripture had much more continuity and was much more part of a cohesive whole than I had given it credit for. In 1 John 5:3, it also confirms that the commands of God are not burdensome.

    The issue being discussed in Acts 15:1 was whether Gentiles had to become circumcised in order to become saved. The problem is that nowhere in God's Law does it require all Gentiles to become circumcised and certainly not for the purpose of becoming saved. While all Jews were required to become circumcised, not even they were required to become circumcised in order to become saved, and if God did not required this, then the Jerusalem Council was upholding God's Law by rejecting this man-made requirement. In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so it is important to understand that what the Pharisees were teaching as God's Law was instead full of their own traditions. We need to be careful not to take something that was only against what the Pharisees were teaching as being against obeying the Law of the God that we serve, otherwise we can easily end up with the position that it is somehow bad to obey our God's laws when when that is what He wanted His children to obey all throughout the Bible.

    The issue I raised in my first post was in regard to it being important to discern which law is being talked about as being the power of sin. Paul made a very similar statement in Romans 7:8, so the law being described in 1 Corinthians 15:56 closely fits his description of the law of sin. If God's Law were the power of sin, then it would be sin, but Paul directly said that God's Law was not sin, but rather that it reveals what sin is (Romans 7:7).
     
  16. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    There is no inconsistency between being the chief of sinners and obeying the law faultlessly because faultless is not the same as sinless. When people sinned, the Law contains instructions for what to do for how to become reconciled to God, which Paul obeyed faultlessly. Someone who has had their sins covered is no longer considered to be at fault. Romans 7 is not speaking about just the TC, but while Paul certainly struggled against the law of sin to obey God's Law, there is nothing that indicates that he wasn't able to obey a single law.

    Legalistic righteousness is even worse than no righteousness, which is Paul considered it to be dung. It is better to have nothing than to have dung. Legalistic righteousness has always been a perversion of God's Law that misunderstands the righteousness of God.
     
  17. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I have been very patient soyeng. I will not respond to anymore of your posts unless they directly address the subject title of the thread
     
  18. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    If you don't want to discuss why the power of sin is the law, would you be so kind as to discuss what you do want to discuss in other, more appropriate threads.
    Thank you
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how you can say that I am the one who is being evasive with a straight face.

    I addressed the issue of why the power of sin is the law in the post you replied to, so I am not sure why you think that I don't want to discuss it. However, if you make other point in this thread, then it should be reply to them. For example, am I allowed to reply to post #53 and contest your claim that I was using bad exegesis? It's seems like an absurd double standard that you are allowed to make point in this thread that I am not allowed to reply to.
     
  20. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me you are only capable of discussing one subject. Your belief the Christian must observe the law of Moses.
    You made a comment that typifies your lack of understanding as to what obeying the law entails. You said, something in effect of:
    I honour my parents, it is easy not to murder. So none of Gods laws are hard to obey.

    That says so much.
    As for your belief in obeying all the OT law. As I have previously told you, you have no choice but to believe the Christian church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples gave gentile converts a licence to sin for the whole of their lives ( acts ch15&acts ch21:15) Nonsensical belief!
    As for avoiding the Levitical unclean foods. Paul twice plainly states in rom ch14 all food is clean.
    Under the NC, you know what law God desires you to follow for it is written in your mind and placed in your heart, your conviction comes from within, NOT reading what is written in ink.
    So where does that leave you?


    I'm tired of discussing the same old thing with you all the time, and going round and round in circles. You just want to debate the same old thing it seems to me no matter what thread you are involved in. So you see, I let you distract me from the subject this thread concerns so you could debate your pet subject. Well no more. I am placing you on ignore. You are welcome to the final rant
    Goodbye
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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