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The power of sin is the law

Discussion in 'Exposition & Bible Study' started by stuart lawrence, Sep 10, 2017.

  1. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    When Paul refers to the power of sin being the law, would he be referring mainly to specific law? Would that include law Paul could faultlessly obey, or law the Pharisees of jesus day could faultlessly obey
    IE
    How would the power of sin be seen in avoiding the Levitical unclean foods for example. Paul and the Pharisees could faultlessly obey that law, so where is the power of sin seen in that particular law?In regard to the Levitical laws, which ones did Saul the pharisee and the pharisees of jesus day not obey in regard to ceremonial law or much else written in Leviticus? So how is the power of sin being manifest concerning those laws?
    Through which particular law does Paul tell us sin took occasion of the commandment to arouse all manner of sin in Saul the pharisee. The Levitical law, or that which was written on stone?
     
  2. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I did not mean for this conversation to get to the point where you would put me on ignore. However, why you are doing that and then asking me questions.

    In Romans 7, Paul described the Law of sin as being the power of sin, which causes him not to do the good that he wanted to, so it does not refer to specific laws so much as it refers to the Jewish concept of the evil inclination. Someone who had done what the Law prescribes for how to have their sins covered and to become reconciled to God was considered to be faultless, so Paul had obeyed the Law faultlessly even though he struggled to do so against the law of sin.



    I hope you don't consider my answer to this question to be off topic. We know that God's Word says that in is sin eat unclean animals, so the law of sin is right there with us trying to justify why we don't need to follow that law and hardening our hearts so that we refuse to submit to God's will. It is those who have a mind set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law (Romans 8:7). However, the law of sin can also manifest in causing us to keep God's Law according to the letter rather the Spirit, so even though Paul obeyed the Law faultlessly, he was still counted as being Lawless because he did not know Christ and was missing the whole point of obeying the Law.

    Both are part of God's instructions for how to do good, so yes to both.

    I discuss many subjects at this forum, but gently restoring those who are caught in sin is of particular interest to me.

    Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.

    Apparently you think God lied. That says so much.

    If you believe that the Law was given to reveal what sin is and that the Jerusalem permitted Gentiles to do what God said was sin, then it is you who believes that Gentiles were given a licence to sin. I believe that Gentiles were required to obey the Mosaic Law, so I do not believe that they were given a licence to sin.

    The topic of Romans 14 is not whether followers of God should follow God's commands, but how to handle disputes of opinion, so we should not take something that was only against obeying man as being against obeying the God that we serve.

    A change in the medium on which the Law is written does not change the content of what is written. The New Covenant involves God putting His Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it, not so that you can twist as an excuse to justify your disobedience. If you are not convicted by doing what God has said is sin and an abomination, then that is an indication that your heart is not in the right place and that it has become harded.

    The topic of this thread is directly related to other matters that we have previously discussed, so it shouldn't be a problem to discuss them. I would hope that you don't put me on ignore, but that is your choice.
     
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 7:3 is a good bible verse for us all to consider. The power of obedience to God's Law is love and love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. For if you live after the flesh you shall die, for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Faith is the victory (Romans 13:8-10; Romans 8:4; 13; Romans 6:23).
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  4. omega2xx

    omega2xx Active Member Supporter

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    Not money, the love of money is the root of all kinds o evil
     
  5. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 15:56
    The strength of sin is the law.
    The harder you try to keep a law, the harder that law gets to keep.
    As was said earlier about the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 Peter asked why they wanted to put a yoke on the Gentiles that neither we nor our fathers were able to bear.
    They wanted the Gentiles to keep the Mosaic law and be circumsized.
    They came up with just a couple recommendation which did not include the Mosaic law or circumcision.
    15:20
    But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
     
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that neither 1 Corinthians 15:56 nor Acts 15 are speaking about the Mosaic Law. In Romans 7, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, that gave sin its power, that caused him not to do the good that he wanted, and that he served with his flesh, so it the strength of sin is the law of sin. In Romans 7:7, Paul directly said that God's Law is not sin, but that it reveals what sin is, so it is false that trying to obey God's Law causes us to sin.

    In Acts 15:1, they were wanting all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, so can you quote where the Mosaic Law actually requires this? If the Mosaic Law doesn't contain that requirement, then they could not have been speaking against Gentiles obeying God's Law. While God certainly required all Jews to become circumcised, not even they were required to become circumcised for the purpose of becoming saved. In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they were teaching as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so it is important to interpret Acts 15 in light of the fact that Jesus criticized the Pharisees because what they were teaching as the Mosaic Law was actually teaching their own traditions in place of it. In Matthew 23:2-4, Jesus did not criticize the Pharisees for teaching the people to obey what God had commanded them, but rather he was referring to their many traditions as placing a heavy burden on the people.

    So in Acts 15, in the minds of the Pharisees, requiring Gentiles to become circumcised was requiring them to obey the Mosaic Law, but the Mosaic Law does not actually require that, so in reality they were wanting to require Gentiles to follow their own traditions in order to become saved. This means that we should be careful not to take something that was only against obeying the laws of men as being against obeying the laws the God that we serve. In Acts 15:10, they were simply expressing the same opinion of Pharisaic traditions that Jesus had expressed. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult for us, but that His Word was near us, in our hearts and in our mouth so that we can obey it, and Romans 10:5-8 quotes this passage in regard to what our faith says, so if Acts 15:10 was referring to the Mosaic Law, then they were denying what our faith says and were calling God a liar. In 1 John 5:3, it also confirms that to love God is to obey His commands, and that His commands are not burdensome, so again if they were telling Gentiles not to obey God's commands, then they were telling Gentiles not to love God.

    Jesus was sinless, so he taught obedience to the Mosaic Law both by word and by example, so that is the yoke that he was inviting people to follow, which was light and easy, where we would find rest for our souls. That is a reference to Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, which is in contrast to the heavy burden that the Pharisees were placing on the people.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  7. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Actually, both are speaking about the Mosaic law.
    Acts 15:5
    15:5
    But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

    Is not the LAW OF MOSES the Mosaic Law?

    Rom 7:8-11
    :8
    But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
    [​IMG]

    7:9
    For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    [​IMG]

    7:10
    And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    [​IMG]

    7:11
    For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

    The commandment, that would be the 10 Commandments one of which he just quoted, was ordained to life. But he found to be unto death.
    Is the law sin, God forbid. We need to remember why the law was given originally.
    Exodus 19. God wanted to make them a kingdom of priests, but the people exposed there self-righteousness when they said all that God commands us we are able to perform. They were totally incapable of doing what God told them to do. They broke the Sabbath by looking for the Manna on the Sabbath when He told them not to.
    They murmured and complained and wanted to go back to Egypt.
    So when they exposed there self-righteous pride, God had to expose there sin.
    So, He gave them the 10 Commandments.
    The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, but now that we are in Christ, we are no longer under the tutor. Galatians 3:24-25
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Again, I cited Christ's criticism of the Pharisees in Matthew 15:2-9 and Mark 7:6-9 to show that the Pharisees were setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions and were treating their own teachings as if they were the commands of God, so what they were teaching as the Mosaic Law was actually their own traditions. The is demonstrated by the fact that issue being discussed in Matthew 15 about whether someone could become common by eating with unwashed hands is a tradition of the elders and not something command by the Mosaic Law. This is also demonstrated in Acts 15:1 they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved as part of obeying the Mosaic Law in spite of the fact that that requirement is found nowhere in it.

    The issue was that according to Isaiah 45:25, all Israel will be saved, so some Jews mistakenly thought that meant that Gentiles needed to become Jewish proselytes in order to become saved, which meant becoming circumcised and which meant joining the group of people who agreed to do everything that Moses said at Sinai (Exodus 20:19, Deuteronomy 5:22-33). Moses had the authority to interpret the Law, but in Exodus 18, he delegated his authority, and by the first century those who had this authority passed down to them were referred to as sitting in Moses' seat, and their rulings had becoming a large body of oral laws, traditions, and fences, which Jesus referred to as placing a heavy burden on the people (Matthew 23:2-4). So by becoming circumcised, Gentiles were becoming Jewish proselytes and agreeing to live as Jews according to all of their oral laws and traditions, and doing all of this in order to become saved, and this is what the Jerusalem Council rejected, not obedience to our God's commands.

    It is the law of sin that stirred up sin to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held Paul captive (7:6), that gave sin its power (7:8), that seized the opportunity through the commandment to deceive Paul and slay him (7:11), that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), that held him captive (7:23), and that is the law that he served with his flesh (7:25), while it is God's Law that is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), that is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), that is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death to him (7:13), that is the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), that is the good that he delighted in doing (7:22), and that is the law that he served with his mind (7:25).

    Saying that "all that God has said we will do" was agreeing to the terms of the covenant and essentially sealing it with an "I do" to God's marriage proposal, so it had absolutely nothing to do with either with their self-righteousness or with God exposing it. God said that what He commanded was not too difficult and I believe Him, and many are able to what He commanded by grace through faith. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His chosen people to repent and turn back to obedience to Him, so God does not turn around and show contempt for people who seek to obey His commands. God's commands were given to reveal our sin, but they were primarily given to teach how to walk in God's ways in accordance with His attributes, and revealing our sins has significance only insofar as it leads us to repent and turn back to obedience. In any case, if you agree that the Law was given to reveal what sin is and you agree that we should not do what God has revealed to be sin, then you should agree that we should obey the Law.

    Having no more need for a tutor is not at all the same thing as having no more need to live according to what the tutor taught us. Someone who was to disregard everything that their tutor taught them after they reached the point where they no longer needed a tutor would be completely missing the whole point of a tutor. Christ was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1), so now that he has come, we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways in accordance with His attributes. We now also have the Spirit, who has the role of leading us to obey God's Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  9. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    In Acts 15, these Pharisees were Pharisees who were believers, so they would not have been talking about there traditional law of Moses. They would have been talking about the 10 Commandments. They were also talking about circumcision which was instituted before the Mosaic Law. They were very concerned about this one especially as God almost killed Moses because he had not circumsized his son.
    This to me shows that they were genuinely concerned about these new Gentile believers. They would not have been falling back to there tradition.

    In Romans 7 Paul is saying that sin taking advantage of the commandment was the law of sin. The law of sin was not something that did not have anything to do with the 10 commandments.
    Then we get down to Rom 7:13
    Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

    The law is holy, just and good. But it has no power to make me holy, just and good. That is why God found fault with it.
     
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Are you seriously suggesting that in Acts 15:1 the Pharisees were wanting to require Gentiles to just obey the Ten Commandments and the Jerusalem Council rejected that, so Gentiles are free to commit murder, adultery, idolatry, etc.?

    In Acts 6:13, it says that Stephen had been falsely accused of teaching Jews against obeying the Mosaic Law and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was going to participate in making offerings in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching Jews against obeying the Law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it, which means that no one in leadership was teaching Jews against obeying the Law, so I see no reason to think that the Pharisees would have been quick to give up their long-held traditions or to think that they would have considered the Mosaic Law to be just the Ten Commandments. Furthermore, they were talking about circumcision, which is also not included in the Ten Commandments.

    Can you please quote where the Mosaic Law requires all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved or conceded that the Mosaic Law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, and therefore that requirement is a man-made tradition? In Acts 10:28, it refers to another law that prohibited Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles, which again is not found anywhere in God's Law, and is therefore a man-made requirement, so even Peter was slow to give up these traditions.

    But even if it were true that the Pharisees were just speaking about the Ten Commandments, that would not mean that they had given up their traditions. For example, there are 24 chapters in the Mishna for just how to keep the Sabbath, which govern every aspect of keeping the Sabbath from how much someone can lift to how far someone can walk before it counts as work, and then they put a fence around that to scale it back in order prevent anyone from getting close to doing too much so that they didn't accidentally break the Sabbath. The Pharisees taught that people couldn't know how to correctly obey the Law without knowing their traditions for how to obey it, so they would not have taught Gentiles to keep the Sabbath without teaching them all of their traditions for how to correctly keep it. However these traditions perverted what was intended to be a day of rest focused on God into a chore that was focused on minutia, which is why Jesus referred to them as placing a heavy burden on the people.

    So Paul said in Romans 7:12 that the Law is good and then said in the next verse that he did not blame what was good for bringing death to him, but rather it is the law of sin that seized the opportunity through the Law to deceive him and slay him, so it is the law of sin that is at fault, not the Law that Paul delighted in obeying.

    I agree that the Law has no power to make us righteous, but it wouldn't make sense for God to find fault with His instructions for how to live in accordance with His righteous standard for not doing something that they were never given to do in the first place, nor does the Bible say anywhere that God found fault with His Law, but rather He found fault with the people for breaking their covenant. The Law is God's instructions for how to practice righteousness in accordance with His righteous standard, and as part of the New Covenant, we are required to practice righteousness (1 John 3:10), but no amount of practicing righteousness will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous, but rather we are required to practice righteousness because we have been declared to be righteous, and that is the vocation of someone who is righteous. For example, it is not like God instructed that helping the poor is in accordance with His righteousness, but then found fault with those instructions because people didn't follow them, so helping the poor is no longer something we should do.
     
  11. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I would never teach someone to disobey the law.
    I think you are confusing not being required to keep the law(which we aren't) and disobeying the law(which if we follow the Spirit, He will never have us do).
    When I say "law" in that context I mean 10 commandments. Which was the law that was written on stone. The law that was written on stone is a ministry of condemnation and death according to 2 Cor 3.
     
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In 1 John 3:10, it says that whoever does not practice righteousness is not a child of God, so following God's instructions for how to practice righteousness is not something that is optional. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct, which is a quote from Leviticus, so we are required to follow God's instructions in Leviticus for how to have a holy conduct. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we have been saved by grace through faith, not be doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them, so again, following God's instructions for how to do good works it is something that we are required to do. We are required to refrain doing all that God has revealed to be sin and the Law was given to reveal what sin is, so we are required to refrain from disobeying the Law.

    In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, it says that all OT Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work, not just the Ten Commandments. So if you teach that we only have to obey the Ten Commandments and not any of God's other laws, then you are teaching against obeying the Law. The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have and will not lead us to disobey anything that the Father has commanded, but will only guide us to obey God's Law. We are obligated to obey God's commands regardless of what materials they are written upon. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, it is upfront that the Law is a ministry of life and a blessing for obedience and a ministry of death and a curse for disobedience, so choose life! The fact that the Mosaic Law brings death for disobedience is hardly a good reason for anyone to choose to disobey it. Christ gave himself to free us from the curse of living in disobedience to the Law so that we can be free to obey it.
     
  13. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been
    a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    The 10 Commandments could not give life. If any law could given life, This verse says
    righteousness would have been by the law.

    Psalm 119:50 says This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

    So the Psalmist says God's Word had quickened him.
    Abraham kept His commandments long before Moses was born.
    Gen 26:5
    Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
    The Israelite congregation had statutes before 10 Commandments were given.
    Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt
    do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes,
    I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the
    LORD that healeth thee.

    Therefore every time we see the word "law" it may or may not be referring to the
    10 Commandments/Mosaic law.

    In 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments:
    and his commandments are not grievous.

    Yet the Israelites whom the 10 Commandments/Mosaic law was given to utterly and completely failed
    to keep this law.
    My conjecture as to why they came up with all of these traditions was that they needed to soothe
    there conscience. So they made a law that they were able to keep. The Pharisees had no problem
    keeping there traditional laws.

    The 10 Commandments/Mosaic law was designed to bring life but was found to bring death because
    it could not be kept. Romans 7:10

    Which brings us back to what the original post is about.
    The law being the power of sin.
    The 10 Commandments/Mosaic law is not itself sin, but it does activate the law of sin.
    Law of sin = any time you are given a command without the power to perform that command,
    attempting to perform that command has to be done in your own willpower. And for humans to do
    that, it just gets harder and harder.
    If someone is told to do something or not do something, the law of sin is activated.
    Thou shalt do this.
    Thou shalt not do that.
    Both of these activate the law of sin. Which is why God found fault with the Old Covenant.
    Therfore, He gave us a New Covenant. Now instead of "Thou shalt love the LORD thy God" we find
    in the New Covenant, "We love Him because He first loved us".
    And "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" we find in the New Covenant "Love others as I (Jesus)
    have loved you".
    Now we have the power to love God and love our neighbor.

    For those of you who are married how long do you think your marriage would last if your spouse gave
    you a list of demands that you absolutely had to obey? And you gave your spouse a list of demands
    that they absolutely had to obey? And at the end of each day you checked off how they did.
    But if you love each other, no list of demands is necessary, you do what your spouse wants out of
    love without being told because you already know what they want and it gives you joy to give it.
     
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