The power of prayer?

[Par5]

When hurricane Irma swept across the Carribean Islands and into Florida leaving behind a trail of death and destruction I am sure that many Christian people prayed that the approaching hurricane could be diverted. Sadly, that didn't happen and many people lost their homes and even more sadly, loved ones.
You will not be surprised that I as an atheist do not believe in the power of prayer. I don't believe that prayer can alter the force of nature and I believe how we cope with life's other hardships stand or falls on how we deal with those hardships ourselves.
Christians often say when a prayer appears to be unanswered that it was in fact answered and that the answer sometimes is no.
It that is what is believed, how do Christians make sense of the following verses from the bible. They seem to say quite clearly that if those praying do so in the way indicated in those verses, then their prayer request will be granted.

John 14:13-14New International Version (NIV)
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Matthew 18:19-20New International Version (NIV)
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

 

[brinny]

When hurricane Irma swept across the Carribean Islands and into Florida leaving behind a trail of death and destruction I am sure that many Christian people prayed that the approaching hurricane could be diverted. Sadly, that didn't happen and many people lost their homes and even more sadly, loved ones.
You will not be surprised that I as an atheist do not believe in the power of prayer. I don't believe that prayer can alter the force of nature and I believe how we cope with life's other hardships stand or falls on how we deal with those hardships ourselves.
Christians often say when a prayer appears to be unanswered that it was in fact answered and that the answer sometimes is no.
It that is what is believed, how do Christians make sense of the following verses from the bible. They seem to say quite clearly that if those praying do so in the way indicated in those verses, then their prayer request will be granted.

John 14:13-14New International Version (NIV)
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Matthew 18:19-20New International Version (NIV)
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

It's the living GOD Who is powerful, not "prayer". It is also written that we pray according to "His will".

Prayer is not "magic". It's not a "magical formula", that will do whatever we want, according to "our will".

 

[Cat Loaf You]

When hurricane Irma swept across the Carribean Islands and into Florida leaving behind a trail of death and destruction I am sure that many Christian people prayed that the approaching hurricane could be diverted. Sadly, that didn't happen and many people lost their homes and even more sadly, loved ones.
You will not be surprised that I as an atheist do not believe in the power of prayer. I don't believe that prayer can alter the force of nature and I believe how we cope with life's other hardships stand or falls on how we deal with those hardships ourselves.
Christians often say when a prayer appears to be unanswered that it was in fact answered and that the answer sometimes is no.
It that is what is believed, how do Christians make sense of the following verses from the bible. They seem to say quite clearly that if those praying do so in the way indicated in those verses, then their prayer request will be granted.

John 14:13-14New International Version (NIV)
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Matthew 18:19-20New International Version (NIV)
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Next time please don;t use Not Inspired Version but try KJV.

John 14:13-14
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

If you ask according to God's will for you he will grant you that thing , he won't grant you something which will harm you or be against prophecy or bad for you overall .

Matthew 18:19-20
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Group prayer works looks like , it's not for God but it's for us so we can support each other by faith .


If you have dubts about these prayer and miracles , you might want to check out your orgin of comming world into existence first , because according to atheists everything came from nothing and stars form from dust even tho there is gas law against it .

I don't act like i know what prayer is i just simply put faith in it , just as scientists put faith in energy and they have no idea what it is .

 

[Grace2022]

We pray but that's it. God is the one who decides what is good for us. We cannot see the big picture and future that He can. So we trust. Have faith. We cannot demand.

When my husband was dying i could hsve prayed for him to live. But thst would be foolish. His body was full of cancer. But strength and peace were granted to me.
What i couldnt see was a good future lay ahead. All in the hands of God. I never question God, after all, who am i to do so?

The forces of nature are immovable, they must be so. In prayer we ask for powrr for our hearts and souls. That is where God's work is mostly done. He changes US not circumstances.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Nithavela]

Next time please don;t use Not Inspired Version but try KJV.

There are actually no rules on which version of the bible one can or cannot quote on Christian Forums.

On the topic. Many people, including atheists, feel the need to petition a higher power in times of danger or uncertainty. That could be the universe, or a god, or one's ancestors or anything else, really. Some people even petition the government.

In my eyes, it's a coping mechanism to combat perceived helplessness. When we humans feel we are doing something (even if we're just talking into the nothingness of the ether), we automatically feel better than when we are doing nothing at all.

It becomes truly problematic if people could do something, but eschew to do something and use the coping mechanism instead.

 

[Par5]

Next time please don;t use Not Inspired Version but try KJV.

John 14:13-14
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

If you ask according to God's will for you he will grant you that thing , he won't grant you something which will harm you or be against prophecy or bad for you overall .

Matthew 18:19-20
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Group prayer works looks like , it's not for God but it's for us so we can support each other by faith .


If you have dubts about these prayer and miracles , you might want to check out your orgin of comming world into existence first , because according to atheists everything came from nothing and stars form from dust even tho there is gas law against it .

I don't act like i know what prayer is i just simply put faith in it , just as scientists put faith in energy and they have no idea what it is .

Well, excuse me for quoting the "wrong" version of the bible, although I can't see any real difference as to what both versions are saying.
No one, including yourself, has actually answered the question. Those bible verses, whether you use the NIV or the KJV, clearly state that if you ask for something and satisfy what is required of you to be able to ask, then your prayer request will be granted. I am not talking about prayers that may be considered selfish, I am talking about unselfish prayers meant to help others in need.
So, do those verses mean what they say, or is it just another case of, "Oh I know that's what it says, but that's not what it means"?
And BTW, science can give you a good explanation as to what energy is, look it up for yourself and science does not depend on faith, science depends on facts!

 

[Par5]

There are times when sin keeps God from answering a prayer, such as Jeremiah was not to pray for the people, as God would not listen.
Other times, God does things for His name's sake, such as would not totally wipe out Israel. She would be a witness to the nations.


Jeremiah 7:16

“Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.”

 

[Par5]

There are times when sin keeps God from answering a prayer, such as Jeremiah was not to pray for the people, as God would not listen.
Other times, God does things for His name's sake, such as would not totally wipe out Israel. She would be a witness to the nations.


Jeremiah 7:16

“Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.”

Well if sin keeps your god from answering prayers, does that mean that the people the people of the Carribean islands and Florida are very sinful people?
I say that what happened there was because they live in a part of the world where from time to time hurricanes occur and that no amount of praying will prevent those hurricanes from going anywhere other than where nature dictates they go.
So what do you think the verses in Matthew and John mean regarding prayer?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Prayer is good for the prayer, keeps you in 'acknowledgment' of God whether or not prayers are answered. God has blessed me so much in my life that most of my prayers of those of thanks and gratitude. Things like coming tragedies I always include "if it's your will". I believe that God is moving mightily on the earth at this time as foretold in the so-called "Lord's Prayer": "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

 

[Par5]

Prayer is good for the prayer, keeps you in 'acknowledgment' of God whether or not prayers are answered. God has blessed me so much in my life that most of my prayers of those of thanks and gratitude. Things like coming tragedies I always include "if it's your will". I believe that God is moving mightily on the earth at this time as foretold in the so-called "Lord's Prayer": "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

OK, but the verses in Matthew and John do not say. "...if it is my will" they clearly say that a prayer request WILL be answered, not maybe, not perhaps, but WILL.
How do you interpret the verses in John and Matthew?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

OK, but the verses in Matthew and John do not say. "...if it is my will" they clearly say that a prayer request WILL be answered, not maybe, not perhaps, but WILL.
How do you interpret the verses in John and Matthew?

That promise might have been given to the disciples and the early church only. Not everything that happened then is for all ages. Jesus instructed that prayer generally contain certain elements and appeals; reverence for God's name, provision of daily sustenance, freedom from temptation and evil, forgiveness of others, and most importantly reaffirming the ultimate will of God.

And of course personal petitions as well, recognizing that such appeals may not be granted as God may have other plans for you. I prayed diligently for my marriage to be saved, to no avail. God was actually blessing me. As the years went by I realized that if I had remained with my wife my life would have been a complete disaster, and my salvation possibly at risk as well.

 

[ViaCrucis]

When hurricane Irma swept across the Carribean Islands and into Florida leaving behind a trail of death and destruction I am sure that many Christian people prayed that the approaching hurricane could be diverted. Sadly, that didn't happen and many people lost their homes and even more sadly, loved ones.
You will not be surprised that I as an atheist do not believe in the power of prayer. I don't believe that prayer can alter the force of nature and I believe how we cope with life's other hardships stand or falls on how we deal with those hardships ourselves.
Christians often say when a prayer appears to be unanswered that it was in fact answered and that the answer sometimes is no.
It that is what is believed, how do Christians make sense of the following verses from the bible. They seem to say quite clearly that if those praying do so in the way indicated in those verses, then their prayer request will be granted.

John 14:13-14New International Version (NIV)
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Matthew 18:19-20New International Version (NIV)
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Two thousand years of consistent Christian teaching rejects the idea that simply using the name "Jesus" is some sort of magical incantation. That simply has never been the way Christians understand prayer.

For example you won't find Christian theologians in history arguing that if we pray and ask God to give us a bunch of money that He will, or that if we ask Him to murder someone we're angry with that He will. Because that's not what prayer means, and isn't how prayer "works". The quoted texts must be comprehended within a larger context of prayer in the tradition in which it is found; the point isn't that if we use the name of Jesus that God becomes our cosmic butler or wish-fulfilling genie, the point is that we can freely come before God because Jesus has given us access as the divine mediator between God and man. The substratum of meaning here is the way in which Jesus, as the Messiah, appropriates to Himself the significance of the temple and the priesthood--and thus the One by which we can know, understand, and approach God. And that ultimately we have, in Jesus, God as our Father and thus can refer to Him as such and know Him as such. Trusting in the fatherly goodness of God as Jesus, God's Son, testifies and bears witness to this fatherly goodness of God.

Prayer isn't magic. It's not about changing the external world to conform to what I want; prayer is about trusting in the good and gracious God who is a Father to us on Christ's account, and that regardless of what happens that remains true. Prayer is not about me making God do anything, it's about me relying on God as a child would rely on a loving parent.

Whether the world turns out the way I want is ultimately irrelevant. Because I'm not here to manipulate the world through some kind of "magic" to get what I want out of it, but to surrender myself in love to others in imitation of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Par5]

Two thousand years of consistent Christian teaching rejects the idea that simply using the name "Jesus" is some sort of magical incantation. That simply has never been the way Christians understand prayer.

For example you won't find Christian theologians in history arguing that if we pray and ask God to give us a bunch of money that He will, or that if we ask Him to murder someone we're angry with that He will. Because that's not what prayer means, and isn't how prayer "works". The quoted texts must be comprehended within a larger context of prayer in the tradition in which it is found; the point isn't that if we use the name of Jesus that God becomes our cosmic butler or wish-fulfilling genie, the point is that we can freely come before God because Jesus has given us access as the divine mediator between God and man. The substratum of meaning here is the way in which Jesus, as the Messiah, appropriates to Himself the significance of the temple and the priesthood--and thus the One by which we can know, understand, and approach God. And that ultimately we have, in Jesus, God as our Father and thus can refer to Him as such and know Him as such. Trusting in the fatherly goodness of God as Jesus, God's Son, testifies and bears witness to this fatherly goodness of God.

Prayer isn't magic. It's not about changing the external world to conform to what I want; prayer is about trusting in the good and gracious God who is a Father to us on Christ's account, and that regardless of what happens that remains true. Prayer is not about me making God do anything, it's about me relying on God as a child would rely on a loving parent.

Whether the world turns out the way I want is ultimately irrelevant. Because I'm not here to manipulate the world through some kind of "magic" to get what I want out of it, but to surrender myself in love to others in imitation of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

So are you saying that all the Christians who tell me that their prayers have been answered are mistaken?
I find it strange that Christians can take as the literal truth the biblical account of Adam and Eve, a story I put on a par with a fairy tale, yet you don't take as literal truth the words supposedly said by Jesus regarding prayer. OldWiseGuy says he always finishes his prayers with "if it is your will" which suggests to me that if you believe your prayer has been answered it is only a coincidence as it simply coincides with what your god has already planned, so what's to be is what will happen, no matter what you do or say. You say that you look to your god as a child looks to its father. So if someone prays to your god to save their child who is dying of an illness and the child dies, then is it because it wasn't your god's will that the child survived? What kind of father would say to his ill child that you are going to die because it is not my will to do anything you help you live?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So are you saying that all the Christians who tell me that their prayers have been answered are mistaken?

I couldn't tell you, I'm not omniscient.

I find it strange that Christians can take as the literal truth the biblical account of Adam and Eve, a story I put on a par with a fairy tale, yet you don't take as literal truth the words supposedly said by Jesus regarding prayer.

I'm not interested in taking the Bible "literally", I'm interested in taking the Bible seriously. So, for the record, I don't believe the account of Adam and Eve is literal; and I'm not suggesting that Jesus didn't say that--what I am saying is that Jesus' words need to be understood in a larger context. If a man in the passion of a moment says to his girlfriend, "I love you so much, I'd give you anything." And she then asks for moon, I think we can all agree that "anything" probably didn't include the moon. The context in the man's statement of passion is that he would give of himself freely to his beloved. I'm not saying Jesus' statement was a statement of passion, but it similarly occurs in a particular context, and demands certain underlying assumptions--such as that God is the giver of good gifts, not bad gifts.

OldWiseGuy says he always finishes his prayers with "if it is your will" which suggests to me that if you believe your prayer has been answered it is only a coincidence as it simply coincides with what your god has already planned, so what's to be is what will happen, no matter what you do or say. You say that you look to your god as a child looks to its father. So if someone prays to your god to save their child who is dying of an illness and the child dies, then is it because it wasn't your god's will that the child survived? What kind of father would say to his ill child that you are going to die because it is not my will to do anything you help you live?

If I thought I had the answer to the problem of Theodicy I'd tell you it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Rajni]

As for the oft-used appeal to emotion, the Dying Child Scenario:

Firstly, the shutdown of one’s earth-suit can be scary no matter how much baby-fat still remains on it. So, child or adult, it’s the earth-suit-failure that’s the issue, rather than how long one had to wait for the thing to finally give out. Age is immaterial, imo.

Secondly, I can’t think of a single person who has leveled up from this physical plane ("died", they call it) who has cancer or any other illness, terminal or otherwise. That suggests to me that being completely liberated from an ailing and failing earth-suit (a.k.a. "death") could be counted as one of various cures in such cases.

If one fully identifies with one’s physical body, and firmly believes, with unwavering faith, that their existence stops when their body does, the above might not be very comforting. Fortunately, one can change the narrative one chooses to swear by. As for myself, I find it easier to swallow simply because I happen to believe that my existence, as well as the existence of everyone else (with or without baby-fat) is not contingent upon having a physical body.


-

 

[Resha Caner]

So if someone prays to your god to save their child who is dying of an illness and the child dies, then is it because it wasn't your god's will that the child survived? What kind of father would say to his ill child that you are going to die because it is not my will to do anything you help you live?

Why are sick little children always the 'go to' for these discussions? Isn't it a tragedy when anyone dies?

 

[dysert]

That promise might have been given to the disciples and the early church only. Not everything that happened then is for all ages. Jesus instructed that prayer generally contain certain elements and appeals; reverence for God's name, provision of daily sustenance, freedom from temptation and evil, forgiveness of others, and most importantly reaffirming the ultimate will of God.

And of course personal petitions as well, recognizing that such appeals may not be granted as God may have other plans for you. I prayed diligently for my marriage to be saved, to no avail. God was actually blessing me. As the years went by I realized that if I had remained with my wife my life would have been a complete disaster, and my salvation possibly at risk as well.

Don't all these caveats strain at the clear and simple reading of the text? Why not just admit that prayer is a mysterious spiritual discipline that we don't understand, and leave it at that?

 

[GeorgeJ]

Next time please don;t use Not Inspired Version but try KJV.

Yup....in fact, God has proclaimed that your prayers will not be answered unless you use the KJV.