The Pit

[lben]

Honey I get that, but that isnt helping me in a rebuttal perspective. Many people will not take this as a proper explanation. So I need more information to combat on.

You don't need to prove anything. Whatever religion he has joined up with is lying to him. There are numerous deliberate mistranslations of the Bible floating around these days that leave out, alter, or add to key elements of scripture and they will use those mistranslations to try to prove their point. Your friend has fallen prey to the lies of the devil. Don't let him confuse you. It's how they add to their congregation. Read your Bible, KJV is the most accurate English translation. Get to know God's word so well that you can't be lied to about what's what.

 

[1213]

So I came across something that throws my views into the spiral of confusion. I was advised by another Christian that the views of Hell didnt actually exist until the Greeks ...

I think greatest teaching abut hell is this:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Jesus seems to say, hell is a place where body and soul are destroyed and I think that is the best knowledge about it. I recommend to believe Jesus.

 

[AvgJoe]

I think greatest teaching abut hell is this:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Jesus seems to say, hell is a place where body and soul are destroyed and I think that is the best knowledge about it. I recommend to believe Jesus.

Believing Jesus is absolutely the best thing one can do, however, one must understand what He is saying, in order to have the correct belief. The phrase “to destroy” in Matthew 10:28 is derived from the Greek word apollumi, which is used 92 times in the New Testament. It is translated into such terms as perish, destroy, lose, and lost. While it is true that occasionally apollumi is used to mean death (Matthew 2:13; 8:25; 26:52), most often it simply signifies the idea of suffering a loss of well-being and the loss of being blessed. As in Matthew 10:28, where Thayer's Greek Lexicon shows that the word (destroy) is being used metaphorically and the meaning is "to devote or give over to eternal misery".

In Luke 15, Jesus spoke of the shepherd’s lone sheep that was “lost” (apollumi), but not annihilated (vs. 6). In that same chapter, He told of the father’s prodigal son who was “lost” (apollumi), not extinguished (vss. 24,32). The wineskins of which Christ spoke in Matthew 9:17 did not pass into nonexistence, but were “ruined” (apollumi). Jesus did not come to seek and to save those who did not exist; rather He came to save those who were alive physically, but ruined spiritually by sin [i.e., lost (apollumi)—Luke 19:10]. Paul stated that the Gospel is “veiled to those who are perishing” (apollumi) in sin, not to those who are exterminated by sin.

Considering the fact that even when apollumi is used to mean “death” (Matthew 2:13; 8:25; 26:52), total annihilation of the person is not under consideration (for the soul still would be alive). Therefore, one can rightly conclude that there is not a single instance in the New Testament where apollumi means “annihilation” in the strictest sense of the word. The Scriptures clearly teach that those who, at Judgment, will be “destroyed” because of their wickedness, will be like the “beast” who will “go to perdition” (apoleia, Revelation 17:8,11) in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” where they will be, not annihilated, but “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 17:8,11; 20:10). “Destruction” does not equal “annihilation.”

 

[buzuxi02]

The OP seems to be saying that "greeks" changed or altered the NT centuries later, not that the NT itself is tainted because much in it is a product of Greek influence. The accusation though can only hold water if the accuser holds to the latter and rejects the authors of the NT themselves as being the Greek usurper's of Hebrew thought. We know the original Koine Greek used the word Hades abundantly, it also used the Greek usage for the gloomiest dwelling place of all called tartarus. It spoke of Gehenna fire and it even mentioned a place or state called Kolasis (the primary word which modern greeks understand as hell) and usually translated as place of torment. Hades is translated into English as hell and sometimes left untranslated as Hades, which can cause confusion.

 

[HenryM]

Believing Jesus is absolutely the best thing one can do, however, one must understand what He is saying, in order to have the correct belief. The phrase “to destroy” in Matthew 10:28 is derived from the Greek word apollumi, which is used 92 times in the New Testament. It is translated into such terms as perish, destroy, lose, and lost. While it is true that occasionally apollumi is used to mean death (Matthew 2:13; 8:25; 26:52), most often it simply signifies the idea of suffering a loss of well-being and the loss of being blessed. As in Matthew 10:28, where Thayer's Greek Lexicon shows that the word (destroy) is being used metaphorically and the meaning is "to devote or give over to eternal misery".

In Luke 15, Jesus spoke of the shepherd’s lone sheep that was “lost” (apollumi), but not annihilated (vs. 6). In that same chapter, He told of the father’s prodigal son who was “lost” (apollumi), not extinguished (vss. 24,32). The wineskins of which Christ spoke in Matthew 9:17 did not pass into nonexistence, but were “ruined” (apollumi). Jesus did not come to seek and to save those who did not exist; rather He came to save those who were alive physically, but ruined spiritually by sin [i.e., lost (apollumi)—Luke 19:10]. Paul stated that the Gospel is “veiled to those who are perishing” (apollumi) in sin, not to those who are exterminated by sin.

Considering the fact that even when apollumi is used to mean “death” (Matthew 2:13; 8:25; 26:52), total annihilation of the person is not under consideration (for the soul still would be alive). Therefore, one can rightly conclude that there is not a single instance in the New Testament where apollumi means “annihilation” in the strictest sense of the word. The Scriptures clearly teach that those who, at Judgment, will be “destroyed” because of their wickedness, will be like the “beast” who will “go to perdition” (apoleia, Revelation 17:8,11) in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” where they will be, not annihilated, but “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 17:8,11; 20:10). “Destruction” does not equal “annihilation.”

This whole post by an AverageJoe looks to me like an example of what I think God gives us with the Bible - choices. And then He takes note of our choices.

Many, if not most Bible questions cannot be known by a human. Including this one about hell. Is it a torture for all sinners, or a death of a soul for most sinners?

There are enough clues in the Bible for both options. And no human knows which one is true.

Holy Spirit doesn't help anyone (on Earth) to know everything, as I see it, because God wants humble servants who will go to Heaven without boasting, without pride, without perfect knowledge, but by His mercy and work of His Son.

So, some people can have great understanding of the Bible, but they can't have perfect, all encompassing knowledge of it.

As a result, an understanding of a lot of issues will come down to a choice. And that's, what seems to me, is what God wants us to do. To make a choice.

Take a look at this issue. Is hell torture for all sinners, or death of a soul for most sinners (second death)?

There are enough sound arguments for both options. Does what one chooses reveal something about him or her? Is it a learning experience God gives us?

Does one who leans to be ok towards millions or billions of people being tortured for ever chooses option 1? Could be. At the same time, there are certainly people who wouldn't like to see millions or billions of people suffering for ever. And they can found their position answered in the Bible. Plus, it is impossible that they have greater compassion and empathy than God.

But what's the real answer? God could have told us in plain language if He wanted to. But He didn't. I think God gives us path to learn and options to choose, and then takes note of what we have chosen.

In my opinion, there are many Bible issues that cannot be known, and ultimately, after all analysis and study, we choose our position. I think that our choices mean something. So we should pray that we choose wisely, and repent in advance if we have chosen wrong.

 

[AvgJoe]

This whole post by an AverageJoe looks to me like an example of what I think God gives us with the Bible - choices. And then He takes note of our choices.

Many, if not most Bible questions cannot be known by a human.

I disagree.

16) All Scripture is God-breathed [given by divine inspiration] and is profitable for instruction, for conviction [of sin], for correction [of error and restoration to obedience], for training in righteousness [learning to live in conformity to God’s will, both publicly and privately—behaving honorably with personal integrity and moral courage]; 17) so that the man of God may be complete and proficient, outfitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16 (AMP)​

You have to,

15) Study and do your best to present yourself to God approved, a workman [tested by trial] who has no reason to be ashamed, accurately handling and skillfully teaching the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 (AMP)​

We need to be like the Bereans, searching the Scriptures daily (Acts 17:11), but the Bible wasn't originally written in English, so much of our study will require going back to the original language to discover and/or verify what some and/or all of the words mean.

So, some people can have great understanding of the Bible, but they can't have perfect, all encompassing knowledge of it.

We're in complete agreement here. No one has it all right.

As a result, an understanding of a lot of issues will come down to a choice. And that's, what seems to me, is what God wants us to do. To make a choice.

We do all make choices, as to what we believe, but the right choice is what the Bible reveals to be the truth. Anytime a belief I hold, is shown by Scripture to be wrong, that belief is changed, on the spot. Scripture is truth and we can know it.

Does what one chooses reveal something about him or her?

Does one who leans to be ok towards millions or billions of people being tortured for ever chooses option 1? Could be. At the same time, there are certainly people who wouldn't like to see millions or billions of people suffering for ever. And they can found their position answered in the Bible. Plus, it is impossible that they have greater compassion and empathy than God.

It seems, that the implication here, is that someone that believes hell is real, chooses that because they are a bad person, and someone that believes hell isn't real, chooses that because they are a good person.

Here is the other option, I don't want to see not one single person go to hell and suffer in agony for all eternity, but that is what is revealed in the Bible and what Jesus, who is God, spoke about more than anyone else in the Bible, so me, who hates the very idea of hell, has no choice but to believe in it, if I want my belief to be inline with what the Bible professes to be true. And the really sad part, no one has to go there, but many will because they refuse to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Open Heart]

So I came across something that throws my views into the spiral of confusion. I was advised by another Christian that the views of Hell didnt actually exist until the Greeks got a hold of the Bible and gave the thought of eternal life to the individual spirit. He stated that originally in Christianity the spirit would simply go to the pit- or death. Has anybody come across this? and what supporting evidence of this is there?
If it is originally a Pagan concept, would it not be better to not have this taught?

-Dont be angry people, I just want an intelligent discussion about it.




-Will you or wont you be blessed today?

What is the Lake of Fire if not hell?

 

[FrankDux]

Very interesting topic, actually, but I have not done enough reading to really have a solid opinion

I have noted several things in my studies of Mesopotamian literature:

The " pit " seems to be associated with something known as " ritual enclosure " in Mesopotamian magic texts, which in turn seems to be related to the Biblical concept of Noah's vineyard ( He planted post-flood )

In turn, Mesopotamian flood literature is about eclipses ( signs in the sky in the Bible )

cf. " Gilgamesh Epic " as written by the asipu ( sometimes apkallu )priest Sin-Leqi-unninni, for example, from the first line "He who saw the deep" or "The one who saw the Abyss"

This in turn seems related to the concept of " Bit meseri " ( House of confinement ) in which an atonement priest ( Like a proto-Christ, serving as the atonement ) would imitate a god

In turn this is related to the " qeren " ( horn ) in Hebrew, which is cognate to the Akkadian " qarnu " ( horn - finger ), which is a measure used in Mesopotamian mathematical astronomy recording eclipses ( floods )

See Isaiah 5:1 ( the vineyard planted in the " fat-rich qeren ( Akkadian qarnu ) ", vineyards were often in the corner, and the word for " horn " is the same for " corner "

Probably some other stuff in my notes..


ETA, yes, I forgot

Seems to be related to the concept of " keritot " ( which is spiritual excision ) in the Kodashim, which regards the items of the Temple

Something about being " removed from " and " the cleansing of " , etc

 

[FrankDux]

Now I remember, there was the subject of the " devil "

Most folks would gladly associate " the pit / the abyss " with " the devil "

But, " devil " is a " sa'iyr " in Hebrew ( he-goat ) used for the Levite sacrifice known as the " scapegoat ritual " in which a goat is blamed for the sins of the sins of the world and kicked out of town, into the wilderness ( But not killed )

This is also essentially " keritot " ( being kareth- cut off from )

But you keep in mind that in the Bible narrative, Jesus replaces the old " devil sacrifice " of the Levites and the Temples ( which angered many, as they had a good party / schtick going, quite profitable )

 

[placebo99]

Read your Bible, KJV is the most accurate English translation.

No matter what you believe about hell, don't believe it on this basis. The KJV is a great work of literature but a poor translation.