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St_Worm2

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He is also saying that they did alter verses of the Bible, translations of eternal souls and hell that is different than what the original context and meaning of the words were. Would this be under different denominations or something to that effect?

We all have access to and use the same translations, and I know of no church or denomination within the pale of orthodoxy anyway (RCC, EOC, Protestant, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.), that holds to either the annihilation view, or to a "temporal" punishment of the wicked/reprobate that ends with them entering Heaven after all (which amounts to nothing less than heresy of universal salvation).

Yours in Christ,
David
 
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Neogaia777

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So I came across something that throws my views into the spiral of confusion. I was advised by another Christian that the views of Hell didnt actually exist until the Greeks got a hold of the Bible and gave the thought of eternal life to the individual spirit. He stated that originally in Christianity the spirit would simply go to the pit- or death. Has anybody come across this? and what supporting evidence of this is there?
If it is originally a Pagan concept, would it not be better to not have this taught?

-Dont be angry people, I just want an intelligent discussion about it.




-Will you or wont you be blessed today?
Who got ahold of, or always had ahold of, the Greeks...?

Anyhow... In the OT, living in a kingdom hereafter is more of a foriegn concept, than it is the NT.

God was focused on setting up his everlasting kingdom of earth, right then and there, and tried so many times in the OT, then in the NT, God was no longer trying to "bring heaven down to earth", but to, in time, "bring earth up to heaven" one day... So to speak...

God Bless!
 
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buzuxi02

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To those who are asking for the basis- no he didnt give proof, which is why I am asking here if there has been anybody else who has come across this. He is also saying that they did alter verses of the Bible, translations of eternal souls and hell that is different than what the original context and meaning of the words were. Would this be under different denominations or something to that effect?

He is most likely a Jehovahs Witness. The entire NT was written in greek. The JW have a problem in their interpretations as the OT term Sheol usually means pit or grave but the NT uses the greek word Hades which is a locale where the souls went to . Acts 2:27 makes clear that the body of Christ went to the tomb and lay incorrupt while His soul went to Hades but did not remain there. Now the evangelist Luke was a Greek, the gospel of Luke speaks of the parable of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus Luke 16:19-25, thus Hades is not just a pit. Is Luke the greek person he is speaking of?
 
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It is good that you are asking and looking at new things. I am a Christian and I don't believe in a eternal hell.
My beliefs are in universal reconciliation where the unrighteous go to a temporary punishment.
Universal reconciliation is not a new teaching, there are many scriptures that point to all being reconciled and entering heaven. The belief had a major following even with the early church fathers. I will provide scriptures.
 
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St_Worm2

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It is good that you are asking and looking at new things. I am a Christian and I don't believe in a eternal hell.
My beliefs are in universal reconciliation where the unrighteous go to a temporary punishment.
Universal reconciliation is not a new teaching, there are many scriptures that point to all being reconciled and entering heaven. The belief had a major following even with the early church fathers. I will provide scriptures.
Please include your ECF references as well.

Thanks!

edit: On second thought, forget it, this isn't CT (the Controversial Theology board). Universalism cannot be discussed/debated here, you can only do that on the CT board, just FYI.

General Theology Boards - Statement of Faith (excerpt)

Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Nicene and Trinitarian beliefs. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Christianity & World Religion forum and the Debate Non-Christian Religions forum. Other Christian non-Nicene topics may only be discussed in the Controversial Theology forum. The Controversial Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). These unorthodox topics include (but are not limited to):
  • Universalism
  • Open Theism
  • Full Preterism
  • Annihilationism
  • Gnosticism
 
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buzuxi02

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While there were early Christian bishops and ascetics that wrote about universal restoration it was more complex than what is passed as universal reconciliation today. Origen developed a complex speculative theology which does not square away with what modern day believers of reconciliation teach (about his views as they tend to use him as evidence). Gregory of Nyssa on the other hand actually has a very deep understanding of the psychosomatic unity of man and how the natural inclination of the soul towards God being made in His image (when severed from the body) is hindered, due to the passions of the flesh as the soul is attracted like to like. That is vice to vice but virtue to virtue. It can only ascend to its rightful place if it can overcome and discard those passions pulling it in the opposite direction which have melded themselves to the soul through the actions conducted in the body . Gregory Nyssa believed it was possible but extremely painful as the soul is tormented between opposing attractions.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So I came across something that throws my views into the spiral of confusion. I was advised by another Christian that the views of Hell didnt actually exist until the Greeks got a hold of the Bible and gave the thought of eternal life to the individual spirit. He stated that originally in Christianity the spirit would simply go to the pit- or death. Has anybody come across this? and what supporting evidence of this is there?
If it is originally a Pagan concept, would it not be better to not have this taught?

-Dont be angry people, I just want an intelligent discussion about it.




-Will you or wont you be blessed today?

Yes, I've heard of this. Some of this is due to the fact that the original Jewish position in the Old Testament was, in general terms, that the 'grave' (Sheol) was the place everyone went to, and after that it was up to God to determine what happened thereafter.

As Greek thought came into play in the development of Eschatological considerations among Jews and later Christians, divisional ideas like Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna began to be used by Jewish thinkers through and beyond the 1st century A.D.

For me, whether eternal destruction equates to one form or another isn't a problem and nothing to seriously debate....because in the end, no one wants to wind up in any kind of permanent punitive state (or non-state) -- of whatever form -- after they die.
 
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GandalfTheWise

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There is a small group of believers (usually somewhat quiet about it due to fear of being labeled heretics or kicked out of their denominations) who do not hold to the idea of eternal conscious torment as punishment. The general idea is that life is "living" and death is "not living" or "end of life". Eternal life is "living forever" and eternal death is "not living forever". Hence, the descriptions of fire are basically of the local garbage dump being burned to eliminate sin and its consequences once and for all. These people I've met are quite mainstream in all their other beliefs.

The general idea is that our eternal life as believers flows from our relationship with God (i.e. I am the vine, you are the branches. It is not longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me). We can only live eternally because of God's ongoing flow of life into us. This is in contrast to the more common view that we are self-existent eternal souls that will continue to exist forever in some state or another.
 
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claninja

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So I came across something that throws my views into the spiral of confusion. I was advised by another Christian that the views of Hell didnt actually exist until the Greeks got a hold of the Bible and gave the thought of eternal life to the individual spirit. He stated that originally in Christianity the spirit would simply go to the pit- or death. Has anybody come across this? and what supporting evidence of this is there?
If it is originally a Pagan concept, would it not be better to not have this taught?

-Dont be angry people, I just want an intelligent discussion about it.




-Will you or wont you be blessed today?

Throughout the old testament, Israel failed multiple times by incorporating pagan religions into their own. So it would not be surprising if Israel was influenced by Greek paganism. In the old testament, there really is no mention of hell. There is sheol, which is the grave, but no specific place mention of eternal torment. So it would not be surprising if Greek philosophies penetrated into Jewish thought. Dualism (humans have an immortal soul trapped in their physical body that goes to eternal bliss or torment after death) was a common philosophy at the time that was held by the Greeks. Pharisees believed in heaven and hell, but the Sadducees believed in nothing after death. (however Jesus disproves the saducees argument with scripture, with the famous quote that He is not a God of the dead, but of the living.)

The words that are directly translated as hell in the NT, used by Jesus, are Gehenna and Hades. In KJV these are translated as Hell, but in most modern bibles, Gehenna is translated as hell and hades as hades. So you have to question why would Jesus have used Gehenna for his audience? Did Jesus really believe in hades? Was Jesus speaking in greek?
 
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AspieforGod

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So I came across something that throws my views into the spiral of confusion. I was advised by another Christian that the views of Hell didnt actually exist until the Greeks got a hold of the Bible and gave the thought of eternal life to the individual spirit. He stated that originally in Christianity the spirit would simply go to the pit- or death. Has anybody come across this? and what supporting evidence of this is there?
If it is originally a Pagan concept, would it not be better to not have this taught?

-Dont be angry people, I just want an intelligent discussion about it.




-Will you or wont you be blessed today?

Scripture tells us to test every spirit to be on our guard from what we see and hear so we are not troubled by anything false because we have recieved the truth.

When something troubles your spirit first go to God before you gp to humans He will let you know to follow or ignore the information.

Everything we can currently know without speculation before physical death about heaven and in particular hell has been said to us by Jesus if you can't trust that because the Scriptures have been mishandled go to God and don't think about what knowledge He hasn't given you wisdom on chances are you aren't ready for it. If thinking of hell or heaven or the afterlife worries you because you can't know or trust what has been provided on the subject best to try to forget it and just trust in God and what you DO know of Him anf how to live.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So I came across something that throws my views into the spiral of confusion. I was advised by another Christian that the views of Hell didnt actually exist until the Greeks got a hold of the Bible and gave the thought of eternal life to the individual spirit. He stated that originally in Christianity the spirit would simply go to the pit- or death.
There's a lot of opinions today.
There's a lot of opinions from the past few thousand years also.
Who can separate the truth from it all ?

< shrugs > Just a accept that there are many wrong opinions floating around in and out of use, in and out of the churches,
and
don't trust anyone's opinion.

The peace from God and the joy He gives is not at all based on anyone's opinion,
though perhaps if you believe what people say, if it is not true,
it
could cause great loss of truth and joy and peace.

Simply, trust God's Word, trust Jesus,
and
not what men say about anything.

Shalom,
jeff
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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English translations of the Bible often translate several different words 'hell' - which can cause confusion. There are several different terms to be aware of in scripture, sometimes all lumped together as 'hell,' that are not necessarily the same thing.

Hebrew 'Sheol' and the Greek 'Hades' or 'the pit': This is 'the pit' your friend is likely referring to. Sheol/Hades basically refer to 'the grave' or to 'death.' More figuratively, it can refer to 'the place of departed spirits.
(One easy visual aid to remember this term is to think of the Earth's crust - people are buried and decompose in Sheol.)

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going." Ecc 9:10

"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and each of them were judged according to their works." Rev 20:13

Scripture does seem to heavily imply that the dead are not consciously aware of anything, good or bad, in Sheol. It is treated more as a holding place until the judgment. However, there are enough passages with personification of the dead or figurative imagery that it is difficult to be dogmatic about the state of the dead. The Jews generally believed in an afterlife, but it was not a major focus of their faith. In that sense, it is true that the Greeks had much more developed ideas of what they thought the afterlife would look like. (That doesn't make scripture corrupt or false, however.)

Gehenna and the Lake of Fire: A place of suffering and fire where unbelievers and the devil and his angels are thrown after the judgment

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul, but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." Matt 10:28

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." Rev 20:14

Note that Hades (the grave) is thrown into the Lake of Fire after the judgment and that both body and soul are destroyed (over what period of time is unknown) in Gehenna.

A good visual aid for Gehenna is to imagine it like the Earth's mantle - a place of fire and suffering. There is debate within the church as to how long the suffering lasts (is it an eternal judgment of fire that utterly consumes, or an eternal torment of fire that lasts forever, or a suffering equivalent to the sin, etc.)

Tartarus: A holding prison of deep darkness

Tartarus is only referenced in a couple of passages but seems to be a deep, dark prison for certain rebellious angels who are trapped there until the judgment.

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;..." II Pet 2:4

A good visual aid for this is to imagine the Earth's core - deep and dark.


The scriptures have not been corrupted by Greek philosophy if that is what your friend is implying. However, sometimes our interpretation of scripture can be incorrectly done through the lens of western philosophy, which is heavily influenced by Greek thought. The idea of an immortal soul, for example, is never specifically taught in scripture. Only believers are specifically promised eternal life. An immortal soul can be inferred from many passages, just as other passages seem to speak against it. One's background of philosophy (western/greek vs. Jewish vs. oriental, etc.) can color interpretation, biasing towards or against certain verses, and even over-extrapolating from a text. It is easy to start pulling extra theology out of parables or figurative imagery in scripture, and easy to dismiss figurative imagery or parables as containing no theology or information when they do.

For example, here are a few possibilities for the Lk 16 parable of Lazarus and the Rich man:

- Jesus was using current popular imagery to weave a story with a moral point, so nothing dogmatic can be taken from the passage about the afterlife other than there is no crossing over or second chances
- Jesus' setting was the afterlife between death and judgment, so Abraham's Bosom and Hades represent two subsections of Sheol
- Jesus' setting was the afterlife post judgment, so Abraham's Bosom is eternal bliss while Hades has been thrown into the Lake of Fire and is now a place of torment

One's personal philosophies and beliefs about the afterlife will likely cause one to think one of those main possibilities, or another interpretation, as more likely than the others. It is these personal interpretations, not the inspiration of scripture, that can be swayed by philosophy.
 
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mark kennedy

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So I came across something that throws my views into the spiral of confusion. I was advised by another Christian that the views of Hell didnt actually exist until the Greeks got a hold of the Bible and gave the thought of eternal life to the individual spirit. He stated that originally in Christianity the spirit would simply go to the pit- or death. Has anybody come across this? and what supporting evidence of this is there?
If it is originally a Pagan concept, would it not be better to not have this taught?

-Dont be angry people, I just want an intelligent discussion about it.




-Will you or wont you be blessed today?
If you look at the Old Testament there is really nothing about hell as it's described in the New Testament. A couple of passages and some Rabbinical traditions but nothing that would pass muster as doctrine. Jesus, if you ever noticed, is virtually the only one who talks about hell, probably because he was the only one who knew anything. On the other hand, Hellenized Greeks did have a concept of Hades but nothing like what Jesus was talking about.

Now there was a concept of the resurrection, Job speaks of it and the writer of Hebrews tells us it was because Abraham believed God could raise him from the dead he was willing to sacrifice his son. Samuel talking to Saul posthumously and a number of other clues suggest an afterlife but Sheol (death, the grave) has a sense of finality.
 
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david.d

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Honey I get that, but that isnt helping me in a rebuttal perspective. Many people will not take this as a proper explanation. So I need more information to combat on.
If they didn't provide any proof of their accusation, why should you have to have a rebuttal at all? There's nothing to combat other than someone passing on a lie if there's no proof.
 
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placebo99

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This quote is the most balanced assessment of the issue at hand:

One's personal philosophies and beliefs about the afterlife will likely cause one to think one of those main possibilities, or another interpretation, as more likely than the others. It is these personal interpretations, not the inspiration of scripture, that can be swayed by philosophy.

For me, the issue is complicated given that the idea became a lot stronger - even among Jews living a few centuries before Jesus - after Hellenic thought penetrated the Jewish world. I think proof-texting is somewhat futile, because you will find that there are scriptures that support either view, and even these scriptures will often be ripped from their context. Few Protestants are willing to accept John 6:53-59 as evidence of the real presence because this passage requires exegesis. To say that scriptures of theological importance don't require exegesis is kind of sort sighted.

Jews came to believe in an afterlife but didn't generally envisage it to contain the extremes of suffering that the traditional conception of Hell contains. Also it is worth noting that atonement after death was considered possible in Judaism. None of this is to say that this is correct; simply to say that apocalyptic teachers such as Jesus were radical in their beliefs about the afterlife.

I can't say I know the answer for sure, but then again, neither does anyone on the site if they're being honest with themselves.
 
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placebo99

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The apocryphal book of Enoch, a popular book in Judaism to about 100 AD and even quoted in the epistle of Jude uses vivid imagery to describe the subterranean spaces where various souls are kept in chapter 22.

There's a reason it is an apocryphal book; it lacks any substantial reference to Mosaic Law and therefore belongs to a different thread of Judaism than what we might call the "mainstream" one. Also, given that Enoch was composed reasonably late (unless you want to attribute the book to Enoch himself... in that case we would be talking right past each other) it is not hard to see why it would contain this imagery. Nevertheless I concede the point that it is of interest and represents aspects of Judaic theology which are often ignored
 
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Butch5

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So I came across something that throws my views into the spiral of confusion. I was advised by another Christian that the views of Hell didnt actually exist until the Greeks got a hold of the Bible and gave the thought of eternal life to the individual spirit. He stated that originally in Christianity the spirit would simply go to the pit- or death. Has anybody come across this? and what supporting evidence of this is there?
If it is originally a Pagan concept, would it not be better to not have this taught?

-Dont be angry people, I just want an intelligent discussion about it.




-Will you or wont you be blessed today?

Hi omarose,

The modern concept of Hell, as a place of eternal fiery conscious torment did enter Christianity from Greek philosophy. It's not a Biblical concept. Neither the Pharisees nor the Sadducees held to such an idea. I can point you to some in depth study on this subject if you'd like.
 
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