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Featured The Parousia of Antichrist

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by grafted branch, Apr 1, 2021.

  1. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    2 Thessalonians 2:9 has the coming <#3952> or Parousia of the lawless one with power, signs, and lying wonders.

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV has “in them that perish” and YLT also has “in those perishing”. The word “in” is Strong’s #1722 en.

    This is how some other translations are interpreting the word #1722 in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.

    ESV “for”

    NET Bible “against”

    ISV “to”

    Christian Standard Bible “among”

    Berean Literal Bible “directed against”

    Some of the commentaries state that the oldest manuscripts and versions omit the word “en”.

    I have not studied any of the manuscripts that were used for translating. If someone here has any insight on what’s going on with the word “en” I would appreciate a comment on it. I’m wondering why the manuscripts that have the word “en” would be viewed as inferior yet still used by translators and have a Strong’s number assigned to the word.

    So for now I’ll just say I think we need to look at other scriptures to help determine what would be the correct interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:10 in regards to whether the Parousia of Antichrist is in them that perish or the Parousia is for them that perish.

    1 John 4:3 indicates that Antichrist is a spirit and 1 John 2:18 states that there were many Antichrists at that time. These verses would seem to allow for the Parousia of Antichrist to happen, in spirit form, inside those that perish.
     
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  2. Dave G.

    Dave G. Well-Known Member

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    Well regardless of any of that the bottom line is the unbelievers get deceived. People should heed the verses following verse 10 because the implication is once events unfold there is big trouble. That's the real point here and you see/hear very few preaching on this. Those folks will be unable to accept the Lord because of their unbelief in the time appointed to them. We could say while Jesus was available in the church age, the age of grace. That period of time, the grace age is now, we right now are still living in it.

    The AntiChrist is that he is a real man with Satan's powers, call it a spirit in him if you prefer, that of Satan's. Any other antichrist was any opposition or opposing views or common person against Christ through out history, they were anti Christ. These had no supernatural powers. This one in 2 Thess is more than that and with supernatural powers. You need to be sealed by the Holy Spirit to resist this one.
     
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  3. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    When I look at 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 I see Antichrist as a spirit that is in those who perish. In other words the Antichrist is multiple people who have the same spirit, not one single man.
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    little horn, leader of the EU becomes the prince who shall come (into the middle east and Israel) following Gog/Magog.

    The Jews/Israel will at that time believe the person to be the messiah. And the person is anointed the King of Israel (coming in his own name). It is at that point, the person is the Antichrist, perceived messiah instead of Jesus.

    Three years, thereabouts go by, then the Antichrist commits the 2Thessalonians2:4 act, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Revealing himself to be the man of sin, and not the messiah after all. Ending his time as the Antichrist. The Jews/Israel reject him from continuing as their King, and turn to Jesus.

    God in Ezekiel 28:1-10 has the person killed for his act of claiming to be God, and God shortly thereafter in Isaian 14:16-20 brings him back to life at the time of his funeral. It is then that the person becomes the beast of Revelation 13, the man of lawlessness.

    God is the one who brings the person back to life - which is the strong delusion God sends to them who believed the person's initial claim to have achieved God-hood.

    Once the person becomes the beast, and the world (except for the saints) believing that he has achieved God-hood - the ten leaders of the EU hand the EU over to him to become the dictator of the EU. The final stage to his end for 42 months, ending when Jesus returns and the person is cast alive into the lake of fire.

    ____________________________________________________________

    little horn - leader of the EU, King of the Roman Empire.

    Antichrist - King of Israel, coming in his own name. Christ (Jesus) - (rightful) King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord. Christ, the King of Israel, Mark 15:32

    beast - dictator of the EU, King of the Roman Empire.


    little horn>Antichrist>beast.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  5. Berean Tim

    Berean Tim Active Member

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    2nd Thessalonians 2:4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

    The AC proclaims "himself" God. He is a flesh & blood man
     
  6. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    You have the Antichrist revealing himself; if this is true then it’s the Antichrist himself that will help people understand the Bible. The book of Revelation (which means revealing) is the revealing of Antichrist. We are not to add to this revealing.
     
  7. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    Consider 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 where it states that we are the temple of God and if any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy.

    If someone defiles his body (temple) God will destroy him. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 … in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. It’s reasonable to come to the conclusion that it’s the spirit of Antichrist that destroys and he as God sits in the temple of God showing himself to be God.
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You are linking two things - that are not connected.

    Revelation is the revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ to the world in great power and glory at His return.

    Revealing of the man of sin is the Antichrist exposing himself as not being the messiah benevolent King of Israel, as the Jews will be thinking he is at the time. It shatters the belief that the Jews will have in the person at the time. And also shatter the perception to the world that it has been in the messianic age.
     
  9. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    So are you saying that nothing new has been revealed about the Antichrist in Revelation?
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No, that is not what I am saying. There is plenty of new information about the person in Revelation, that is not in the prior listed books in the bible.

    Information about the person has been incrementally added as the books of the bible advance.

    As the little horn in Daniel 7 and 8. Then as the prince who shall come in Daniel 9. Then in the gospels as the another the Jews will embrace as their king. Then in 1John2:18, of him denying Jesus as the christ, the son of God. Then in 2Thesslaonians as the man of sin. Then in Revelation as the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6. Then as the beast in Revelation 13.

    Daniel>the gospels>the epistles>Revelation.

    One of the things I am saying to you is that you are misunderstanding the concept of the"Anti"Christ.

    You are using the word as a blanket term for the person who will be the arch villain of the end times.
    This is almost a universal mistake that is made by nearly everyone.

    When, to be correct, the person is the Antichrist only for the time he is the King of Israel.

    Other times, he is not the Antichrist but other functional roles - as being the king of the Roman Empire in the end times. Namely, as the little horn (king 7 of the 7 kings in Revelation 17:10). And after his three year stint as being the Antichrist, as the beast (king 8 in Revelation 17:11), dictator of the Roman Empire.

    Antichrist - associated as being the King of Israel.
    the little horn, beast - associated as being the King of the Roman Empire.

    That way, the person as mentioned in Daniel 7, is as the king of the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire.
    And the 7th king, yet to come, in Revelation 17:10. And the 8th king in Revelation 17:11. Are king of the Roman Empire.
    _______________________________________________________

    We are living in the end times.

    Israel is in place to have a king.

    The EU is in place to be the Roman Empire kingdom of the end times.

    The Gog/Magog nations are in place for Ezekiel 38-39 to take place.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    @grafted branch

    If you will notice in all of my posts, I refer to who others are calling the Antichrist, as "the person" all through my sentences. I only use the term the Antichrist in regards to the person being the King of Israel.

    Another way to refer to the person is by the grouped roles expression - "little horn>Antichrist>beast"

    Using the grouped roles expression, if I wanted to say, for example, I could do it like this...

    little horn>Antichrist>beast will be the King of Israel coming in his own name.

    or another example.....

    little horn>Antichrist>beast will be cast alive into the lake of fire.

    or another example....

    little horn
    >Antichrist>beast has not emerged in the EU yet to know who he is.

    ________________________________________________________________________

    The Antichrist word is not found in the bible but in a few places. Which, of course, everyone here is aware of.

    The only way to know what the Antichrist actually means is to first grasp that "the" christ the concept the Jews had/have of "the" messiah as being the promised King of Israel descended from king David.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  12. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    When the Antichrist comes will he be coming for those who perish or in those who perish?
    To me it would seem to be a universal mistake to think he comes for only those who perish. If the Antichrist is a man wouldn’t he already have those who will perish? It would make more sense if he came for those who were saved, but 2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV has “in them that perish”.
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


    Verse 9 is not coming "for". It is just saying the person is coming. And he will be backed, empowered by Satan.

    Verse 10 is saying that he will be deceptive, and fool them who believe his lie that he has achieved God-hood.

    That is something that is going to happen in the future.
     
  14. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    Look at the various translations and how they are interpreting the word #1722 en.

    KJV “in”

    ESV “for”

    NET Bible “against”

    ISV “to”

    Christian Standard Bible “among”

    Berean Literal Bible “directed against”
    I understand that you think the Antichrist is a man. If this is correct then his Parousia is “#1722 en” them that perish. Which translation do you think is correct for #1722?
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The person's coming is in verse 9.

    While in verse 10, the person does the lying wonders (from verse 9) in deceiving people... who are prone to deception because they have rejected, walked away, from Jesus.

    So a person could use any of those translation choices, in verse 10.

    in, for, against, to, among, directed against - them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
     
  16. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    Agreed
    I disagree that the AC person does the lying and wonders in verse 10. There is a coma at the end of verse 9 which means the AC person is also coming with lying wonders. The only action taking places is his coming, not the lying wonders or deception. These things take place after he comes. So verse 10 is a continuation of the description of his coming and then gives the reason he comes in those that perish.

    So the AC person also comes in or? them that perish. It does make a difference if you think he comes for them that perish rather than in them that perish.
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You are referring to the person in verse 10 as the AC person.

    But in verse 8 it refers to the person as that Wicked be revealed. Which goes back to verse 3, the man of sin be revealed.

    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    The revealed man of sin - that Wicked - the person is no longer the Antichrist. When he reveals himself to be the man of sin, it ends his time as the Antichrist.

    The person doesn't do any miracles of any kind as the Antichrist. The lying miracles, empowered by Satan, are after he becomes the beast.

    Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
     
  18. Berean Tim

    Berean Tim Active Member

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    NO, it's clear from the scripture I posted. (He) sits in the Temple blasphemes and proclaim (himself) God.

    The word Paul uses for Temple is only used twice, 2nd Thessalonians and Revelation 11 where John is told to measure the Temple. You have to do little digging, but it's a different word. Interestingly, that word could be translated "Holy Place" same as Jesus described the AOD in Matthew 24:15.

    A lot of folks trying to get around a future Temple or making it a past event use this argument. But it's a different word. Just take it as written
     
  19. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    If you are equating the person in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 with the first beast in Revelation 13, then why isn’t he described as coming for the saints in 2 Thessalonians 2?
     
  20. grafted branch

    grafted branch Active Member Supporter

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    The word temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is #3485 and the word temple in 1 Corinthians 3:16 is #3485. If you’re suggesting that the different Greek forms or transliteration disallow these to be speaking of the same temple then that principle would have to hold true throughout the Bible. This would mean you can’t associate the AOD taking place in the same temple that the AC sits in because the holy place in Matthew 24:15 is comprised of two words #40 and #5117.
     
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