The Parousia of Antichrist

[Douggg]

If you are equating the person in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 with the first beast in Revelation 13, then why isn’t he described as coming for the saints in 2 Thessalonians 2?

The saints in Revelation 13 are not deceived by the miracles. The do not worshiped the beast. Revelation 13:8. Mark 13:22.

 

[parousia70]

There is nothing beyond sheer speculation and man made tradition that links the multiple, specific teachings on the identity of antichrist found in 1 & 2 John to the Biblical personalities of the Beast, Man of Sin/Son of Perdition, Little Horn, etc...

Nowhere do we find any biblical teaching that testifies these are one in the same entity.

Of course that never seems to stop folks from tightly clinging to their unbiblical belief that such a connection exists.

 

[grafted branch]

The saints in Revelation 13 are not deceived by the miracles. The do not worshiped the beast. Revelation 13:8. Mark 13:22.

Then how does the beast overcome them? I thought the gates of hell would not prevail against the church.

 

[lsume]

2 Thessalonians 2:9 has the coming <#3952> or Parousia of the lawless one with power, signs, and lying wonders.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV has “in them that perish” and YLT also has “in those perishing”. The word “in” is Strong’s #1722 en.

This is how some other translations are interpreting the word #1722 in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.

ESV “for”

NET Bible “against”

ISV “to”

Christian Standard Bible “among”

Berean Literal Bible “directed against”

Some of the commentaries state that the oldest manuscripts and versions omit the word “en”.

I have not studied any of the manuscripts that were used for translating. If someone here has any insight on what’s going on with the word “en” I would appreciate a comment on it. I’m wondering why the manuscripts that have the word “en” would be viewed as inferior yet still used by translators and have a Strong’s number assigned to the word.

So for now I’ll just say I think we need to look at other scriptures to help determine what would be the correct interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:10 in regards to whether the Parousia of Antichrist is in them that perish or the Parousia is for them that perish.

1 John 4:3 indicates that Antichrist is a spirit and 1 John 2:18 states that there were many Antichrists at that time. These verses would seem to allow for the Parousia of Antichrist to happen, in spirit form, inside those that perish.

There is a book named “God’s Secretaries” as I recall. It gives a detailed description of the writing of the King James Version of The Holy Bible. You might recall “heaven and earth shall pass away but my word will never pass away” if memory serves.

 

[Douggg]

Then how does the beast overcome them? I thought the gates of hell would not prevail against the church.

The church will have been raptured out of the world before the person becomes the beast.

 

[grafted branch]

The church will have been raptured out of the world before the person becomes the beast.

Doug, this view you have has many problems that seem to compound the deeper we get into it.

The word church #1577 means community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both: assembly, church.
So If God has raptured his church prior to this then apparently it would be impossible to ever again have an assembly of believers on earth? Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, this view you have has many problems that seem to compound the deeper we get into it.

The word church #1577 means community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both: assembly, church.
So If God has raptured his church prior to this then apparently it would be impossible to ever again have an assembly of believers on earth? Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The church is the metaphoric body of Christ.

The saints in Revelation 13 are persons who become Christians after the rapture will have taken place. It will include the Jews (Judaism) who do not currently believe in Jesus, but will become Christians after the
little horn/Antichrist/beast betrays them by claiming to have achieved God-hood.

.

 

[grafted branch]

The church is the metaphoric body of Christ.

The saints in Revelation 13 are persons who become Christians after the rapture will have taken place. It will include the Jews (Judaism) who do not currently believe in Jesus, but will become Christians after the
little horn/Antichrist/beast betrays them by claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Ok so the gates of hell won’t prevail against the church that is the body of Christ, but after the rapture the gates of hell will prevail against future believers who will never be part of the body of Christ.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Since there is only one body and one Spirit how can the future saints have the Spirit but not the body? How can there be two separate groups of saints that aren’t fellow citizens?

 

[Douggg]

@grafted branch

I updated my Anytime Rapture Chart, to show the progression of the arch villain of the end times, where on the timeline of events he transitions from one functional role to the next.

 

[Douggg]

Ok so the gates of hell won’t prevail against the church that is the body of Christ, but after the rapture the gates of hell will prevail against future believers who will never be part of the body of Christ.

The beast makes war against and overcomes the great tribulation saints. They are not called the church at that time. In Revelation 7, the great multitude, their souls in heaven, are them who have come out of the great tribulation by dying during that time.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Timtofly]

The word temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is #3485 and the word temple in 1 Corinthians 3:16 is #3485. If you’re suggesting that the different Greek forms or transliteration disallow these to be speaking of the same temple then that principle would have to hold true throughout the Bible. This would mean you can’t associate the AOD taking place in the same temple that the AC sits in because the holy place in Matthew 24:15 is comprised of two words #40 and #5117.

The AC is the abomination of desolation.

 

[grafted branch]

The beast makes war against and overcomes the great tribulation saints. They are not called the church at that time. In Revelation 7, the great multitude, their souls in heaven, are them who have come out of the great tribulation by dying during that time.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In Revelation 7:9 there is a great multitude that no man can number. In Revelation 11:1 the temple is measured and along with the worshipers. Since the people in Revelation 7:14, which are every nation, kindred, people, and tongues, can’t be numbered they can’t be the ones worshiping in the temple either. In Revelation 11:2 the outer court is given to the Gentiles and John is specifically instructed not to measure it. Therefore the people in Revelation 7:14 aren’t the ones in the temple when he sits in the temple of God in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

So now back to 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 when that Wicked be revealed his coming is in them that perish. Which group of people is his coming in? Those who worship in the temple or those who are not in the temple?

 

[grafted branch]

The AC is the abomination of desolation.

I think the AOD is the first sacrifice made after the veil was torn. It’s an abomination because it denies that Jesus was the Lamb and the sacrifices they are making can’t forgive sins so they are now desolate.

 

[Douggg]

In Revelation 7:9 there is a great multitude that no man can number. In Revelation 11:1 the temple is measured and along with the worshipers. Since the people in Revelation 7:14, which are every nation, kindred, people, and tongues, can’t be numbered they can’t be the ones worshiping in the temple either. In Revelation 11:2 the outer court is given to the Gentiles and John is specifically instructed not to measure it. Therefore the people in Revelation 7:14 aren’t the ones in the temple when he sits in the temple of God in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

I don't understand your point. Them martyred during the great tribulation don't have to be martyred on the temple grounds. They are martyred in places all around the world..

So now back to 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 when that Wicked be revealed his coming is in them that perish. Which group of people is his coming in? Those who worship in the temple or those who are not in the temple?

You are misreading v8-10. The Wicked (one) is not coming in persons. It is the resultant unrighteousness that will be in persons, who will worshiping him, believing his miracles.

The Wicked's coming is just that he is coming someday. Them in John's day were aware that the person is coming.

1John2:18 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[Douggg]

The AC is the abomination of desolation.

The abomination of desolation will be the image made of the beast, to be placed on the temple mount.

The transgression of desolation will be the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting claiming to be have achieved God-hood act.

One is a thing, the other is an act.

 

[Timtofly]

Then how does the beast overcome them? I thought the gates of hell would not prevail against the church.

They are taken away by God. God allows the 144k to leave earth along with Jesus Christ until after the 42 months are over. If at all. God may not allow Satan to do anything.

The result is the confirmation of the Covenant. The Atonement and Lamb's book of life. If there are still souls left to harvest Satan is given the vineyard. Those beheaded for not taking the mark are the final harvest. They remain in the Lamb's book of life and are resurrected in Revelation 20:4. They then live on earth forever.

The 144k are firstfruits of the Millennium. The church was already taken out before the Trumpets. Christ is on earth with the 144k, not the church. The harvest removes souls from corruptible physical bodies. People do not stay on earth during this time. Souls are leaving earth. That is why the angels are here. They are transporting souls out of physical bodies. Matthew 13.

 

[Matt5]

2 Thessalonians 2:9 has the coming <#3952> or Parousia of the lawless one with power, signs, and lying wonders.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV has “in them that perish” and YLT also has “in those perishing”. The word “in” is Strong’s #1722 en.

This is how some other translations are interpreting the word #1722 in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.

ESV “for”

NET Bible “against”

ISV “to”

Christian Standard Bible “among”

Berean Literal Bible “directed against”

Some of the commentaries state that the oldest manuscripts and versions omit the word “en”.

I have not studied any of the manuscripts that were used for translating. If someone here has any insight on what’s going on with the word “en” I would appreciate a comment on it. I’m wondering why the manuscripts that have the word “en” would be viewed as inferior yet still used by translators and have a Strong’s number assigned to the word.

So for now I’ll just say I think we need to look at other scriptures to help determine what would be the correct interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:10 in regards to whether the Parousia of Antichrist is in them that perish or the Parousia is for them that perish.

1 John 4:3 indicates that Antichrist is a spirit and 1 John 2:18 states that there were many Antichrists at that time. These verses would seem to allow for the Parousia of Antichrist to happen, in spirit form, inside those that perish.

A lot of people think Jesus is coming back by 2050 or even sooner. Big things need to start happening soon. You should be able to see things today with your own eyes.

Islamic prophecy seems to answer Christian prophecy here. The Mahdi (Antichrist) and Jesus (Islamic version) force the world to join Islam. Jesus deceives the people via miracles so they might join Islam. Those who join Islam have unrighteous deception within them as they allow themselves to be deceived by the fake Jesus. Christians in this group are known as the foolish virgins (from the parable.) Ever notice how Jesus comes (in the parable) but he doesn't actually arrive? That's because the fake one arrived and fooled the foolish virgins. Then the real one shows up a short time later.

Allah is Satan. We know from Islamic scholars that demons help spread Islam around the world at the time of the Mahdi and fake Jesus. Notice how Revelation 9:20 refers to the worship of demons.

 

[Timtofly]

Doug, this view you have has many problems that seem to compound the deeper we get into it.

The word church #1577 means community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both: assembly, church.
So If God has raptured his church prior to this then apparently it would be impossible to ever again have an assembly of believers on earth? Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Bingo.

Once the church is all in Paradise, no more church on earth until the New Jerusalem comes down 1000 years after the Second Coming.

 

[grafted branch]

You are misreading v8-10. The Wicked (one) is not coming in persons. It is the resultant unrighteousness that will be in persons, who will worshiping him, believing his miracles.

Ok so we are in agreement that the Wicked (one) is a spirit correct? Our only difference here is that you believe the spirit comes as a man where I believe it comes as a spirit.

The Wicked's coming is just that he is coming someday. Them in John's day were aware that the person is coming.

1John2:18 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

2 Thessalonians was written approx. 53 A.D. 1 John was written well after that, so it reasonable to think that 1 John 2:18 is referencing the revealing in 2 Thessalonians that shall come after 53 A.D. As ye have heard (in 53 A.D.) that Antichrist shall come.

John knew it was the last time because there were many antichrists at that time. The only logical conclusion I can make here is that Antichrist is a spirit and was present when 1 John was written.

 

[Douggg]

A lot of people think Jesus is coming back by 2050 or even sooner. Big things need to start happening soon. You should be able to see things today with your own eyes.

Islamic prophecy seems to answer Christian prophecy here. The Mahdi (Antichrist) and Jesus (Islamic version) force the world to join Islam. Jesus deceives the people via miracles so they might join Islam. Those who join Islam have unrighteous deception within them as they allow themselves to be deceived by the fake Jesus. Christians in this group are known as the foolish virgins (from the parable.) Ever notice how Jesus comes (in the parable) but he doesn't actually arrive? That's because the fake one arrived and fooled the foolish virgins. Then the real one shows up a short time later.

Allah is Satan. We know from Islamic scholars that demons help spread Islam around the world at the time of the Mahdi and fake Jesus. Notice how Revelation 9:20 refers to the worship of demons.

In the muslim version of the end times, Isa (the muslim version of Jesus) does not return until the Mahdi is in a do or die battle with the dajjal. There is no corresponding event(s) in the real bible prophecies for that to happen.

And no person in the real bible prophecies to correspond to the dajjal, a Jew with one bulging eye, a hairy body, and riding a great white mule across the middle east at incredible speeds (muslim words).

Islam will essentially end when Gog/Magog takes place.