The Paradox of Calvinism and Arminianism (An Opinion)

[corinth77777]

I don't believe it is. I believe your ideas (which follow) are inaccurate and I'll tell you why as I continue.

Paul is the absolute epitome of a Jew who was not only rejecting the Messiah. He was also "crucifying" and "shaming" Christ's church (His body here on earth) literally and with a vengeance.

And yet - he was brought to repentance solely by the grace of God and due in no part to his own attitude or actions. This kind of overwhelming grace is new everyday for His elect.

Repentance is a gift granted by God tor His elect.

One does not receive saving grace because of their turning from sin. One receives saving grace and then they turn from their sins as a result of that grace which has been shed abroad in their heart.

Almost without doubt you will disagree with me on many levels. We aren't likely to iron that out here - I know from experience.

But I believe mine is the proper theology concerning not only initial salvation and it's mechanism of application. I also believe mine is the proper theology concerning how God keeps His elect who are sealed by the Spirit of God against the day of judgment.

I don't believe that those who have passed from death to life will ever again come into condemnation. In fact, I have that on pretty good authority.

I don't mean this in any mean spirited way - but I do believe that you have a fundamentally flawed view of grace. You aren't along of course. You are in a great company who believe the same as you do.

None the less it is true IMO and I believe I have the mind of Christ on this matter.

Grace does not have just one avenue.
For Grace are we saved through faith.
There is grace, love and faith found in Christ.
Unmerrited favor..as DW would say...is God to do what we cannot do on our own.
"The Grace that appeared to all men teaches us to deny ungodliness...."

 

[Marvin Knox]

What you say about Paul is true however it is not relevant to the passage as Paul is not describing himself in the past; rather he is describing others who are currently crucifying and shaming Christ. The plain meaning of the passage is that since they are still engaging in this type of sinful behavior, no forgiveness is possible since it is quite obvious that no forgiveness is being sought.

Paul was currently engaging in that type of sinful behavior at the very time he was shown grace by God. His being dragged into the Kingdom was not dependent on his repentance. It was by grace alone that he was shown mercy.

Repentance came only after his being drawn by the Father to the Son and shown the truth.

Christ prayed for Peter who had renounced him and His prayers were answered and Peter returned to Him. He did not intercede for Peter because Peter returned. He interceded for Peter in order that he return.

I will assume for the sake of argument that you will state unequivocally that you are a regenerate believer who has passed from death to life. Thus given your salvific status,

Your assumption is correct.

You stated that you don't believe that "those who have passed from death to life will ever again come into condemnation."

I quoted Jesus who said that - and yes I believe His words.

if you took the mark of the beast, you would still possess eternal life since you cannot come under condemnation again, correct?

That's quite a bit like asking "if" Jesus had sinned would He have also drank of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and been tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of God. And the smoke of His torment have gone up forever and ever; and had no rest day and night for eternity.

It's an interesting hypothetical. But, just like Jesus was, I am called according to His purpose. Foreknown, predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren. Because, like Jesus, I was predestined by God, I was also called; and those God calls, He also justifies; and those whom He justifies, He also glorifies.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written,

“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You can answer by stating that you would never do such a thing, but no one can say what they would do in the future with 100% absolute certainty

I can say that with 100% absolute certainty because I have been assured that I am not destined for wrath. The Tribulation period in which these temptations would come is called the wrath of God. I not only won't be tempted to take the mark of the beast - I won't even be here to be tempted.

if you did take the mark given your theology you would still be eternally secure.

That is not correct. Those who take the mark of the beast will come into condemnation.

Those who have passed from death to life will not come into condemnation.

Therefore those who have passed from death to life will not take the mark of the beast and those who take the mark of the beast have never passed from death to life.

It's really a matter of basic logic That logic is based on what I know through my systematic studies of the scriptures.

Just as God would not, and indeed cannot, create a rock too heavy for Him to lift - God cannot break His Word.

Either that, or it would mean that you were never a believer a believer in the first place.

That is correct. Basic systematic theology.

Those who do not study the scriptures systematically and as a result posses a balanced theology concerning soteriology will likley arrive at a different conclusion.

 

[wheatpenny]

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I'd like to add a few things to it: I used to be the kind of person that couldn't stand Calvinist, but I gave Calvinism a serious look a while back, and I found that most of what I'd heard was only true of Hyper-Calvinists (some of whom are even more Calvinistic than John Calvin was lol). I still disagree with much of it, enough hat I can't call myself a Calvinist, but I have no problem with Calvinism or Calvinists. I guess I'm a bit of a fence-straddle, I agree with some of what Calvinists believe, but I'd have to say I'm more on the Arminian side. I believe in Total depravity and perseverance of the saints mainly. My main disagreement is on election/predestination, and Limited Atonement. My past experiences where I strayed from Christ and kept coming back every time, has led me to suspect that "Irresistible Grace" is what kept pulling me back.
In my experience, from reading books on both sides of the debate, listening to preachers on both sides, and comparing them with what the Bible says I conclude that an equally Scripturally sound argument can be built for both sides. Neither side ignores the Bible or rejects any part of it, they just differ as to how they understand it.
My view on Predestination and Election is similar to what is taught in the Ryrie Study Bible and other similar works: If God is sovereign and omniscient (and I believe He is), then some sort of predestination and election is impossible to avoid, but the question is How far does it go?
For those non-Calvinists who are interested, IMO the best introduction to what Calvinists actually believe is the Reformation Study Bible. It explains very clearly the "Doctrines of Grace", and it has theological essays that give you a good idea of what Calvinism is, and what it is not

 

[Oldmantook]

If they are turning back to the law....
When Jesus has fullfilled it. Then there is no repentance under the Law. Those sacrifices were for what was to come (Jesus)
But there is repentance under the new system which is not cursed. And that is Faith in Jesus Christ.
I believe the writer of Hebrews expressed History of such people who were under direct authority of God. They may have died without Mercy...simply because they rejected God.

Paul's epistle to the Hebrews was written and addressed to Jewish believers in Christ. There is no repentance under the Law but Jewish believers are no longer under the Law. These were believers who are now crucifying and shaming Christ. They were formerly made "new" in Christ, but now because they have turned from Christ and crucifying and shaming him, it is impossible to "renew" them.

 

[Oldmantook]

Paul was currently engaging in that type of sinful behavior at the very time he was shown grace by God. His being dragged into the Kingdom was not dependent on his repentance. It was by grace alone that he was shown mercy.

No where in Heb 6 is Paul referencing himself. That is a gross eisegesis of the passage.

I quoted Jesus who said that - and yes I believe His words.

Since you did not bother to provide scripture to back up your belief, I assume you are referring to verses such as 1 Jn 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death." There is a condition associated with passing from death to life which is loving each other. Failure of the brethren to love one another results in remaining in spiritual death.

That's quite a bit like asking "if" Jesus had sinned would He have also drank of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and been tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of God. And the smoke of His torment have gone up forever and ever; and had no rest day and night for eternity.

I specifically asked you what you would do in the event of deciding whether to accept the mark of the beast - not what would happen to Jesus. Your response to my question is a red herring and hence irrelevant.

It's an interesting hypothetical. But, just like Jesus was, I am called according to His purpose. Foreknown, predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren. Because, like Jesus, I was predestined by God, I was also called; and those God calls, He also justifies; and those whom He justifies, He also glorifies.

Do you think that just because you have been called, your will also be glorified? Calvinists are fond of quoting this verse, in fact it may well be their bedrock verse proving the security of the believer. Rom 8:30 is often referred to as the "golden chain of salvation" as it supposedly demonstrates a logical and sequential chain of redemption that cannot be broken. Apparently the apostle Paul did not think so. In Gal 1:6 he testifies that there are Galatian believers who despite being CALLED are deserting Christ and turning to another gospel. The Greek word for called in Gal 1:6 is "kaleo" which is the same word for called found in Rom 8:30. Thus Paul's own testimony directly contradicts the false belief that just because one is called, automatically assures that one will be glorified.

But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do you not notice that sin is not included in this list? Habitual sin not repented of separates us from the love of God.

I can say that with 100% absolute certainty because I have been assured that I am not destined for wrath. The Tribulation period in which these temptations would come is called the wrath of God. I not only won't be tempted to take the mark of the beast - I won't even be here to be tempted.

You are not destined for the wrath of God, however that does not entail that you will escape the wrath of Satan starting at the beginning of the tribulation. I assume you believe in the pre-trib rapture. Rapture adherents proclaim that Jesus will return for us as a thief (I agree). The pertinent question then is - when will Jesus return as a thief? Fortunately we don't have to guess because Jesus himself gives us the answer in Rev 16:15-16 where Jesus announces he will come as a thief - right before the battle of Armageddon.

That is not correct. Those who take the mark of the beast will come into condemnation.

Then that is problematic for your salvific theology because you believe you can never lose your salvation - under any circumstances.

That is correct. Basic systematic theology.

Sorry but I have to disagree. I've studied systematic theology in seminary ironically under the tutelage of professors who were all Reformed in their theology. The notion that those who depart from the faith were never believers in the first place is a logical fallacy known as a hasty generalization. It is not logically justifiable to state that just because SOME departed from the faith were never believers, that ALL who departed from the faith were never believers. That would be like saying just because some chickens lay brown eggs (true) then all chickens lay brown eggs (not true). By definition those who depart/apostatize from the faith by necessity have to belong to the faith to begin with. One cannot apostatize or depart from something that he/she never belonged to. The scriptures refer to those who apostatized from the faith which can only refer to believers - not unbelievers.

 

[corinth77777]

Paul's epistle to the Hebrews was written and addressed to Jewish believers in Christ. There is no repentance under the Law but Jewish believers are no longer under the Law. These were believers who are now crucifying and shaming Christ. They were formerly made "new" in Christ, but now because they have turned from Christ and crucifying and shaming him, it is impossible to "renew" them.

Pretty much the theme of Hebrew is why Christ is better...encouraging them to move forward.
That passages can be liken to a family living in their tiny house since birth, but the kids moved with their parents to a new bigger and better house. But to go back to the old house when it's about to be demolished is useless. There is no life there. The key of Hebrews is...about things that bring life.
The old system[which were shadows] were not in effect because the new had full filled their meaning.

Point is the Hebrews were in danger of falling away in a specific kind of way.
Which was to turn back to the law...

But the law was a schoolmaster until Christ. It was a shadow of better things to come. To teach them there is no repentance under the Law anymore is to admonished them a reason not to look back and move forward.
Moving forward in Christ by faith is where salvation is.

 

[Oldmantook]

Moving forward in Christ by faith is where salvation is.

Yes, moving on in faith in Christ is imperative but these persons in Heb 6 whom Paul referred to did not move on "since [because] they are are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."
According to Paul, they have not "moved on;" instead they have regressed and turned away from the faith.

 

[hopperace]

For those non-Calvinists who are interested, IMO the best introduction to what Calvinists actually believe is the Reformation Study Bible. It explains very clearly the "Doctrines of Grace", and it has theological essays that give you a good idea of what Calvinism is, and what it is not

I agree the best introduction to Calvinism is the Bible. : )

 

[Marvin Knox]

No where in Heb 6 is Paul referencing himself. That is a gross eisegesis of the passage.

I agree. Did someone say that he was?

Since you did not bother to provide scripture to back up your belief, I assume you are referring to verses such as 1 Jn 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death." There is a condition associated with passing from death to life which is loving each other. Failure of the brethren to love one another results in remaining in spiritual death.

Your assumption is incorrect.

Jesus is indeed the author of all of the scriptures. Having said that - Jesus did not directly write 1 John. That would be the Apostle John you quoted. I quoted Jesus as I clearly said.

Jesus added no requirement beyond belief to our receiving eternal life.

Nor does John for that matter. What John does say in your quote is that we can judge whether we truly believe and have the life Jesus provides for us through faith. The test is whether we love each other.

Loving each other - as important as it is to our walk with the Lord - is not the requirement for receiving life. By grace we have been saved through faith and that not of ourselves. It is the gift of God lest any man should boast.

I specifically asked you what you would do in the event of deciding whether to accept the mark of the beast - not what would happen to Jesus. Your response to my question is a red herring and hence irrelevant.

Jesus is the Son of God. We are also Sons of God by adoption. He could not and would not sin. Our new man cannot and would not sin and be lost any more than Jesus would or could sin and be lost. We have passed form death to life. We are parts of His body.

Do you think that just because you have been called, your will also be glorified? .

No.

I believe because I have been justified I will be glorified.

Calvinists are fond of quoting this verse, in fact it may well be their bedrock verse proving the security of the believer. Rom 8:30 is often referred to as the "golden chain of salvation" as it supposedly demonstrates a logical and sequential chain of redemption that cannot be broken.

The Calvinist's teaching is the clear implication of the part of the chain you skipped over. All in the world who are called are not justified after being called.

All who are called in the chain are justified. Therefore there must be a general call - as in "many are called and few are chosen" and an internal or effective call - as in "no one can come to me unless the Father draws him and those who come to me I will in no way cast out".

It is not only a chain of salvation which cannot be broken. It is also a prime proof of the doctrine of election.

Apparently the apostle Paul did not think so. In Gal 1:6 he testifies that there are Galatian believers who despite being CALLED are deserting Christ and turning to another gospel. The Greek word for called in Gal 1:6 is "kaleo" which is the same word for called found in Rom 8:30. Thus Paul's own testimony directly contradicts the false belief that just because one is called, automatically assures that one will be glorified.

The call of God goes out to every man - elect and reprobate alike. Any Calvinist will tell you that.

Do you not notice that sin is not included in this list? Habitual sin not repented of separates us from the love of God.

Do you not notice the context of the passage and particularly the things said before that list.

"Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."

You are not destined for the wrath of God, however that does not entail that you will escape the wrath of Satan starting at the beginning of the tribulation.

Revelation 6:17 says that by the time of the 6th Seal judgment God’s wrath has already begun.

Then that is problematic for your salvific theology because you believe you can never lose your salvation - under any circumstances.

It is is correct that I believe I can never lose my salvation. That is because Jesus said so.

Sorry but I have to disagree. I've studied systematic theology in seminary ironically under the tutelage of professors who were all Reformed in their theology.

Most good systematic theology professors are Reformed in their theology. There's good reason for that.

The notion that those who depart from the faith were never believers in the first place is a logical fallacy known as a hasty generalization. It is not logically justifiable to state that just because SOME departed from the faith were never believers, that ALL who departed from the faith were never believers. .

No - the hasty generalization is on the other foot. You have made just such an illogical mistake.

It is not logical to say that those who have passed from death to life can come into condemnation and also say that (as Jesus did) those who have passed from death to life will never come into condemnation.

That would be like saying just because some chickens lay brown eggs (true) then all chickens lay brown eggs (not true).

What you have said is like saying that all chickens lay brown eggs (as in Jesus' clear statement on the matter of eternal security) then saying that some chickens lay white eggs.
QUOTE="Oldmantook, post: 71480773, member: 394310"]By definition those who depart/apostatize from the faith by necessity have to belong to the faith to begin with. One cannot apostatize or depart from something that he/she never belonged to. The scriptures refer to those who apostatized from the faith which can only refer to believers - not unbelievers. [/QUOTE]
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

I'll end this for now. I simply believe that He Who began a good work in me will complete it. Obviously you have no such hope.

Of course many here don't believe that it was Christ who began the good work in them in the first place.

I hope you aren't numbered among them.

 

[corinth77777]

Yes, moving on in faith in Christ is imperative but these persons in Heb 6 whom Paul referred to did not move on "since [because] they are are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."
According to Paul, they have not "moved on;" instead they have regressed and turned away from the faith.

Not just yet, but the key is where they are leading is in the path of death.

Key is Hebrews 10
For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us, 30 10:27 but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury 31 of fire that will consume God’s enemies.

The reason I believe it's deliberate ...is because one would know that there is no sacrifices that remain. So as soon as they tried to keep the law for righteousness ,and not the righteous that comes through trusting Christ, they remain a sinner because there are no sacrifices under the Law that can bring them to repentance. They would bear no fruit that saves[gives them abundant life ] them nor anyone else...
And it's in our walk where we receive assurance whereby we bear fruit.
Yet, and still it never says they will not be saved eternally after death...but God judges both those within the faith and without the faith. Recall His reward is also with Him. And what is it that "accompanies" salvation or sanctification but fruits. People can have a loss of reward. The key is love being made perfect in us is to have boldness in the time of judgement...who will stand? Christ is able to make one stand. But many of us may barely make it in escaping the flames of fire.....oh and to add Christ cannot die over and over again. That is why they perish...nothing They do will be profitable because every good work must go through Jesus.

There is no repentance under the law, but there is when we turn to Christ.

Christ lives forever to interceed for those who come to Him.


Just my thoughts study for yourselves

 

[corinth77777]

Question: How many times can a person pass from death to life?

Question: how many times was Abraham justified?

 

[corinth77777]

Isaiah 57;1


The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.

 

[corinth77777]

11:31 If the righteous are recompensed on earth,
how much more the wicked sinner! 109 proverbs

He would Baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire....

 

[Oldmantook]

Oldmantook said: ↑
No where in Heb 6 is Paul referencing himself. That is a gross eisegesis of the passage.
I agree. Did someone say that he was?
Marvin Knox said: ↑
Paul was currently engaging in that type of sinful behavior at the very time he was shown grace by God. His being dragged into the Kingdom was not dependent on his repentance. It was by grace alone that he was shown mercy.
You referenced Paul. If Paul was not referencing himself in this passage as you agree with then why did you bring up Paul's past? Paul was engaged in sinful behavior, persecuting Christians BEFORE he became a believer. Once he became a believer he never again shamed and crucified Christ. In contrast, those referenced by Paul in Heb 6 were believers who are crucifying Christ AGAIN.

Your assumption is incorrect.

Jesus is indeed the author of all of the scriptures. Having said that - Jesus did not directly write 1 John. That would be the Apostle John you quoted. I quoted Jesus as I clearly said.

Jesus added no requirement beyond belief to our receiving eternal life.

Since the scriptures cannot contradict each other the epistles and Jesus' words must parallel each other and not differ in doctrine/teaching. Therefore you must deal with 1 Jn 3:14 which states that anyone (including Christians) who does not love remains in death (spiritual death). Loving the brethren is obedience to Jesus' command to love one another. Obedience/obeying (present tense verb) in Heb 5:9 is a requirement for eternal salvation. Even if your think obeying is descriptive instead of prescriptive for salvation, the fact remains that disobedience disqualifies one from eternal life.

All who are called in the chain are justified. Therefore there must be a general call - as in "many are called and few are chosen" and an internal or effective call - as in "no one can come to me unless the Father draws him and those who come to me I will in no way cast ou

Rom 8:30 in no way, shape or form refers to a general and external call. This verse is said to represent the internal and effectual call of God upon the regenerate believer. You cannot conflate the two. Calvinists propagate the false teaching that the effectual call of God upon a believer's life will necessitate and result in perseverance. Paul's own testimony in Gal 1:6 also refers to those who were effectually called/kaleo but despite the "effectual" call, they did not persevere. These were NOT unbelievers who failed to heed a general call as they were DESERTING Christ. It is impossible to desert Christ unless one was first loyal to Christ. They were turning away to follow another gospel. One cannot turn away from the gospel unless one was initially following the true gospel. Hence these Galatians had an effectual call upon their lives and yet abandoned it.

Do you not notice the context of the passage and particularly the things said before that list.

"Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."

And if you would look a little further earlier in Rom 8:13 you will find Paul's warning to the brethren in Rome regarding spiritual death to those believers who choose to live according to the flesh.

Revelation 6:17 says that by the time of the 6th Seal judgment God’s wrath has already begun.

That in no way negates Jesus' plain words that he will come as a thief right before Armageddon in Rev 16:15-16. I prefer to take Jesus at his word.

It is is correct that I believe I can never lose my salvation. That is because Jesus said so

Then you would also have no problem receiving the mark of the beast.

Most good systematic theology professors are Reformed in their theology. There's good reason for that.

My Reformed seminary profs were sincere in their beliefs however since no one is infallible, the possibility exists that they could be sincerely wrong. I could also be wrong too but nothing in our discussion thus far has swayed me to think otherwise.

No - the hasty generalization is on the other foot. You have made just such an illogical mistake.

It is not logical to say that those who have passed from death to life can come into condemnation and also say that (as Jesus did) those who have passed from death to life will never come into condemnation.

No, you are referencing something totally different from what I referred to. I wrote that it is a logical fallacy to conclude that just because SOME who depart from us/apostatize were never believers to begin with, it also necessitates that ALL who depart were never believers. That conclusion does not logically follow from the premise.

I'll end this for now. I simply believe that He Who began a good work in me will complete it. Obviously you have no such hope.

Of course many here don't believe that it was Christ who began the good work in them in the first place.

I hope you aren't numbered among them.

We can always agree to disagree. But again, as in Gal 1:6, Paul's own testimony in 1 Cor 9:27 does not support your view. Compare the two following verses:
And as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a debased (adokimon | ἀδόκιμον | acc sg masc) mind, to do things that ought not to be done (Rom 1:28).
The above verse refers to those unsaved persons who have a debased/reprobate/adokimon mind. Compare this with 1 Cor 9:27 where Paul is personally referring to himself:
"but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected (adokimos | ἀδόκιμος | nom sg masc)."
Adokimos
Strong's number:
96
GK Number:
99
Statistics
Frequency in New Testament:
8
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
a-3a
Gloss:
failing the test, rejected
Definition:
unable to stand test, rejected, refuse, worthless

If God has already completed a good work in us as you claim and nothing is required from us except belief, then why would Paul discipline his body so that he would not be adokimos?
Why are we commanded to test and examine ourselves to determine if we are in the faith if God has already completed it in us?
"Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? — unless, of course, you fail the test! (adokimoi | ἀδόκιμοι | nom pl masc) (2 Cor 13:5).
Why does Paul ask the Corinthians this question if were not possible for him to become adokimos?
"And I hope that you will find out that we do not fail the test!" (adokimoi) 2 Cor 13:6.

People overlook that we are in a covenant relationship with Christ that has obligations upon both parties. Jesus will always be faithful to his part of the covenant and we must do the same. Further in Phil 2:12-13 we find: "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."
This verse makes clear that God completes his good work/purpose in us as we obey and work out our salvation.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You must have missed how I ended my last post.
It's appropriate to repeat it in response to this post.

I'll end this for now. I simply believe that He Who began a good work in me will complete it. Obviously you have no such hope.

 

[Oldmantook]

You must have missed how I ended my last post.
It's appropriate to repeat it in response to this post.

I gave you scriptural responses to all of your claims. Obviously we agree to disagree. My hope is based upon scripture which requires that I persevere.

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

 

[sdowney717]

I gave you scriptural responses to all of your claims. Obviously we agree to disagree. My hope is based upon scripture which requires that I persevere.

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

That verse has nothing to do with condemnation.
Yes, you should fear and tremble, because God is at work in you. And He is in charge, you are not your own, you were bought with a great price. If needs be you may have to suffer, and some suffer more and some less. God disciplines, he scourges everyone He receives is the better understanding of that verse.

Lookup what to scourge means, and you should be fearing and trembling then.
Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”

 

[sdowney717]

scourge
skərj/
noun

1. 1.
   historical
   a whip used as an instrument of punishment.
   synonyms: whip, horsewhip, lash, strap, birch, switch, bullwhip, rawhide;
   historicalcat-o'-nine-tails
   "he was beaten with a scourge"
2. 2.
   a person or thing that causes great trouble or suffering.
   "the scourge of mass unemployment"
   synonyms: affliction, bane, curse, plague, menace, evil, misfortune, burden, cross to bear; More
   

verb

1. 1.
   historical
   whip (someone) as a punishment.
   synonyms: flog, whip, beat, horsewhip, lash, flagellate, strap, birch, cane, thrash, belt, leather;More
   
   
2. 2.
   cause great suffering to.
   "political methods used to scourge and oppress workers"
   synonyms: afflict, plague, torment, torture, curse, oppress, burden, bedevil, beset
   "a disease that scourged North America"

 

[Oldmantook]

That verse has nothing to do with condemnation.
Yes, you should fear and tremble, because God is at work in you. And He is in charge, you are not your own, you were bought with a great price. If needs be you may have to suffer, and some suffer more and some less. God disciplines, he scourges everyone He receives is the better understanding of that verse.

Lookup what to scourge means, and you should be fearing and trembling then.
Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”

What does Heb 12:6 have to do with Phil 2:12? God scourges us but we are still required to WORK OUT our SALVATION. If salvation is already a completed work in us as you claim then why are we to work out our salvation? Sorry but the scriptures refute your belief.

 

[sdowney717]

What does Heb 12:6 have to do with Phil 2:12? God scourges us but we are still required to WORK OUT our SALVATION. If salvation is already a completed work in us as you claim then why are we to work out our salvation? Sorry but the scriptures refute your belief.

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.