The Paradox of a Perfect God

Occams Barber

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The Paradox of a Perfect God

According to my understanding the Christian God is perfect – He/It has no needs or wants

At the same time Christians also believe that God created the World/Universe, along with life

If God had no needs or wants prior to Creation then, logically, God would have no reason to create anything

This line of reasoning seems to lead to the logical conclusion that either God is not perfect or He/It did not create the Universe.

What am I missing here?
OB
 

Occams Barber

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While God needs nothing, what is love if it doesn't have someone to love?
I suspect that God is more than just 'love' however, if you're right, then you have just accepted that God/Love needs someone to love or else God is something other than love.

Therefore God is not perfect.
(I think we may owe Queen royalties for pinching their lyrics)
OB
 
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Ana the Ist

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The Paradox of a Perfect God

According to my understanding the Christian God is perfect – He/It has no needs or wants

At the same time Christians also believe that God created the World/Universe, along with life

If God had no needs or wants prior to Creation then, logically, God would have no reason to create anything

This line of reasoning seems to lead to the logical conclusion that either God is not perfect or He/It did not create the Universe.

What am I missing here?
OB

In the context of god, I never took "perfect" to mean "complete" in a way that leaves god without any desires or wants. I am curious how you got to that conclusion.

I always thought of "perfect" as meaning "without error" as a result of god's supposed omnipotent/omniscient nature. He knows all, he does all, therefore he is perfect and does not have/make errors.

This, of course, comes with it's own logical problems.
 
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Occams Barber

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In the context of god, I never took "perfect" to mean "complete" in a way that leaves god without any desires or wants. I am curious how you got to that conclusion.

I always thought of "perfect" as meaning "without error" as a result of god's supposed omnipotent/omniscient nature. He knows all, he does all, therefore he is perfect and does not have/make errors.

This, of course, comes with it's own logical problems.

If you look at my first line you'll see that I went on to qualify 'perfect' as 'has no needs or wants". This is consistent with my understanding of Christian claims. It's also consistent with the first of several definitions (of 'perfect') in the Oxford dictionary*

OB
*Having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Why do you think a perfect God would not create? We create things when we need something, some desire or whatnot - but that is by its nature imperfect, self-seeking behaviour. A perfect Being would not necessarily be self-seeking, but by what corollary does that also mean He wouldn't create? Creation could be conceived in more altruistic terms.

The problem is the assumption that creation would only occur to fulfill a need. So a perfect being without need would not create? Is such a being not then just mired in apathy? How can such a being be perfect then, if it is not also creative? A Being that is apathetic to bringing into actuality what He holds in potentia, can hardly be termed a 'Perfect' being as we understand the term. For is Creativity not a laudatory aspect?

This has potential to descend into a Euthrypo-esque argument as to how 'Perfection' is constituted. From the aspect of created beings though, someone who would've denied us existence, is of course imperfect - so an apathetic non-creator deity can hardly be so described.
 
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Hammster

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Occams Barber

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A perfect Being would not necessarily be self-seeking, but by what corollary does that also mean He wouldn't create? Creation could be conceived in more altruistic terms.
The act of creation (whatever its motives) is an act of adding to or modifying what already is. If what there already is is 'perfect' then an act of creation is not only illogical it is impossible. Secondly I would question whether a perfect entity can have 'motive'.
A Being that is apathetic to bringing into actuality what He holds in potentia, can hardly be termed a 'Perfect' being as we understand the term. For is Creativity not a laudatory aspect?
This is a silly argument. God is constantly 'not creating'. 'Not creating' is what happens when a creative act is unneeded. It has nothing to do with apathy. The list of things God has 'not created' is infinite.
From the aspect of created beings though, someone who would've denied us existence, is of course imperfect - so an apathetic non-creator deity can hardly be so described.
If God has not brought 10 legged, orange skinned lizard people into existence has he then 'denied them existence'? There is no logical basis for your assumption that a God who didn't create us is either imperfect or apathetic. To prove this you would need to show that our creation was a necessary act. Since God is the only entity who could define the act as necessary you would end up with a circular argument.
OB
 
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Occams Barber

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Not a good argument. There’s the Godhead.
The other big problem with Doug's post is that you can describe God as anything but he still remains as the perfect entity who (apparently) created Everything.
OB
 
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Ana the Ist

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If you look at my first line you'll see that I went on to qualify 'perfect' as 'has no needs or wants". This is consistent with my understanding of Christian claims. It's also consistent with the first of several definitions (of 'perfect') in the Oxford dictionary*

OB
*Having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.

I don't see how that definition translates to a lack of desires or wants. Does a desire or want imply imperfection in some way?
 
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“Paisios”

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The Paradox of a Perfect God

According to my understanding the Christian God is perfect – He/It has no needs or wants

At the same time Christians also believe that God created the World/Universe, along with life

If God had no needs or wants prior to Creation then, logically, God would have no reason to create anything

This line of reasoning seems to lead to the logical conclusion that either God is not perfect or He/It did not create the Universe.

What am I missing here?
OB
I am curious why you equate perfect with having no wants (I can kind of see why no needs, maybe)? I would have thought in this vein of thought that being perfect means being able to fulfill any need or want (or, since God is outside of time, able to have fulfilled/fulfill/will have fulfilled). And in this, I would see that “prior to Creation” only has meaning to us within it, and that God being able to and having completed His Creation, thus fulfilling His desires, makes Him perfect.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The act of creation (whatever its motives) is an act of adding to or modifying what already is. If what there already is is 'perfect' then an act of creation is not only illogical it is impossible. Secondly I would question whether a perfect entity can have 'motive'.
Well, not necessarily. If we are thinking in terms of a Berkeleyan Idealism, Creation is neither adding to nor modifying anything. Everything already existed within God therefore.

But please justify your claims: Why if something is perfect, is an act of creation illogical? Why would it be impossible?
Why can't a perfect entity have motive?

I would hold the opposite, that a non-creative entity is by nature imperfect - especially from the viewpoint of creatures so created or not. Without a juxtaposition between what is perfect and imperfect, the former does not exist. To exist is to be differentiated from something else (which is what the word means, to 'stand-forth'), so the Perfect does not exist without the imperfect. So an entity that doesn't create, who is conceived as being the sum-total of all at that stage, cannot logically be termed Perfect at all. So God is only perfect because He had created.

As to motive, this is merely the fact that people have difficulty articulating the thought outside of potentially fulfilling wants or correcting what is not ideal. But a Perfect motive need not be self-serving, in fact ought not to be. Why is this imperfect at all? Why would a motive to make more than itself be deemed so? Again, that seems laudatory to me.
This is a silly argument. God is constantly 'not creating'. 'Not creating' is what happens when a creative act is unneeded. It has nothing to do with apathy. The list of things God has 'not created' is infinite.
How do you know this? Why must there be 'need' for creation to occur? Besides, the universe is an ongoing act of Creation, as God is traditionally seen as the ground of Being. The silly argument would be to assume that everything in potential must therefore exist in actuality, for something to be termed 'creative'. A Being without discernment, would be imperfect after all.
If God has not brought 10 legged, orange skinned lizard people into existence has he then 'denied them existence'? There is no logical basis for your assumption that a God who didn't create us is either imperfect or apathetic. To prove this you would need to show that our creation was a necessary act. Since God is the only entity who could define the act as necessary you would end up with a circular argument.
OB
I need not show creation a necessary act. I need merely assert that we exist, so from the human perspective, any being we can conceive that would not have granted us existence if the sole thing there were, would by nature be an imperfect being to us. So it is not that we needed to exist, but by the fact that we do, we cannot assert a non-creator to be perfect as such.
 
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Occams Barber

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I don't see how that definition translates to a lack of desires or wants. Does a desire or want imply imperfection in some way?
Since the working definition of perfect I'm using clearly says "has no desires or wants" then obviously something which has desires or wants is less than perfect. I'm basing 'has no desires or wants' on what I've seen and heard Christians opine. If Christians are prepared to tell me that God actually has desires or wants then that invalidates the paradox.

Using the dictionary definition if you have "all the required or desirable elements, qualities or characteristics" then you logically have no needs or wants.

I'm not seeing any inconsistencies here. In real terms this argument doesn't even hang on the dictionary definition of "perfect". It's based on the Christian view of an aspect of God i.e., "has no needs or wants".
OB
 
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The Paradox of a Perfect God

According to my understanding the Christian God is perfect – He/It has no needs or wants

At the same time Christians also believe that God created the World/Universe, along with life

If God had no needs or wants prior to Creation then, logically, God would have no reason to create anything

This line of reasoning seems to lead to the logical conclusion that either God is not perfect or He/It did not create the Universe.

What am I missing here?
OB


First let me say I like the name you chose; Occams - barber. Cool play on words.

To answer your question I would just say consider why people have children. I believe 99% + people who choose to have children, do so for the love and joy they can bring to their lives.

Consider also the fact that everyone know kids are a minimum of 18 years major cost (beginning with the birth which involves screaming and paying to do so) both financially and emotionally. Funds, fears and stress, lack of sleep, the discipline dilemmas... The terrible 2's; the elementary school homework no one over 30 can understand; the eye-rolling tweens, and before the biggest money investment - college, there's the full-out-meltdown 15-17 yr olds going on 30 but without benefit of frontal lobe development.

Lots of people have 2 or more kids. Do they really bring enough joy and love into our lives to outweigh all other costs? The answer flies in the face of logic as it is a resounding YES!

The willingness to make love the heavy on the scale is clearly a reflection of our Father's love tipping the scale for us - as rotten as we can be.

Now, if I could create a universe... as seen in Hubble pics, I would have the time of my life. But galaxies are cold and made of rocks and gases. What good is the splendor without someone to share it with? We are his greatest creation because we were made as he is; 3-part beings, having body, soul, and spirit. In His likeness.

The Lord hates evil but enjoys us. You would be surprised that God also has a sense of humor.
 
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Occams Barber

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And in this, I would see that “prior to Creation” only has meaning to us within it, and that God being able to and having completed His Creation, thus fulfilling His desires, makes Him perfect.

I'm having trouble parsing this sentence but the bolded bit is all I need. If 'fulfilling his desires makes him perfect' then he was obviously not perfect prior to 'fulfilling his desires'.

I'm also struggling with the idea of a God who has no needs or wants having 'desires'. The two ideas are contradictory.
OB
 
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Ana the Ist

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Since the working definition of perfect I'm using clearly says "has no desires or wants" then obviously something which has desires or wants is less than perfect. I'm basing 'has no desires or wants' on what I've seen and heard Christians opine. If Christians are prepared to tell me that God actually has desires or wants then that invalidates the paradox.

Using the dictionary definition if you have "all the required or desirable elements, qualities or characteristics" then you logically have no needs or wants.

So....this is the definition you're running with?

Having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be

???

Because I think if we applied that definition to "god"....it would be like saying "that god lacks no qualities that we would desire in him...he is perfect". Not that god himself lacks any desires. I think you might be confusing the subjects and objects of that definition.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Since the working definition of perfect I'm using clearly says "has no desires or wants" then obviously something which has desires or wants is less than perfect. I'm basing 'has no desires or wants' on what I've seen and heard Christians opine. If Christians are prepared to tell me that God actually has desires or wants then that invalidates the paradox.

Using the dictionary definition if you have "all the required or desirable elements, qualities or characteristics" then you logically have no needs or wants.

I'm not seeing any inconsistencies here. In real terms this argument doesn't even hang on the dictionary definition of "perfect". It's based on the Christian view of an aspect of God i.e., "has no needs or wants".
OB
I think you are misunderstanding here. God clearly has desires ('wants') as He sent His only begotten Son to redeem us. "Has no needs or wants" here, means that He is short of nothing He might require to achieve His aims - by whatever means He sees fit. It is 'want' as in having insufficient of. It does not mean He doesn't want certain things from us, such as a relations or such, but conversely He doesn't need such either.

Perhaps you are confusing Aristotle's Unmoved Mover with the Scholastic Christian reinterpretation of those doctrines? There are some differences there.
 
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Occams Barber

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First let me say I like the name you chose; Occams - barber. Cool play on words.

To answer your question I would just say consider why people have children. I believe 99% + people who choose to have children, do so for the love and joy they can bring to their lives.

Consider also the fact that everyone know kids are a minimum of 18 years major cost (beginning with the birth which involves screaming and paying to do so) both financially and emotionally. Funds, fears and stress, lack of sleep, the discipline dilemmas... The terrible 2's; the elementary school homework no one over 30 can understand; the eye-rolling tweens, and before the biggest money investment - college, there's the full-out-meltdown 15-17 yr olds going on 30 but without benefit of frontal lobe development.

Lots of people have 2 or more kids. Do they really bring enough joy and love into our lives to outweigh all other costs? The answer flies in the face of logic as it is a resounding YES!

The willingness to make love the heavy on the scale is clearly a reflection of our Father's love tipping the scale for us - as rotten as we can be.

Now, if I could create a universe... as seen in Hubble pics, I would have the time of my life. But galaxies are cold and made of rocks and gases. What good is the splendor without someone to share it with? We are his greatest creation because we were made as he is; 3-part beings, having body, soul, and spirit. In His likeness.

The Lord hates evil but enjoys us. You would be surprised that God also has a sense of humor.


Total aside and off topic,
If God has a sense of humour he kept most of to himself. In my experience Christians are collectively as gloomy as a Glasgow afternoon. They particularly seem to lack the ability to laugh at themselves.

What you've described is the relationship between a human parent and his/her kids. God is not a human. According to Christians He has powers and abilities beyond those of mortal men (Look- in the sky!).

Basically you've done what most Christians do - you've anthropomorphised God (given him human characteristics).

My argument is relatively simple - a perfect God would not create - he wouldn't need you or me to make his life complete - and he wouldn't have human characteristics.
OB
 
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Occams Barber

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Because I think if we applied that definition to "god"....it would be like saying "that god lacks no qualities that we would desire in him...he is perfect". Not that god himself lacks any desires. I think you might be confusing the subjects and objects of that definition.

I think this is the key sentence in your post but I'm having trouble following you. Can you paraphrase? Ta
OB
 
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dzheremi

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If the key to being a Perfect God is not having to do anything, maybe I'm further along in the process of Theosis than it seems...I did the dishes today and answered some e-mails, but that's about it. I didn't really even need to do either, let alone want to. So...perfect god status, here I come? :scratch:

Wait, no...that's obviously not right.
 
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