The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus Explained

[cgaviria]

However, given the disagreements over canonicity of various Pauline epistles, you cannot make the case that you are not reliant on the Athanasian canon. What is more, your rejection of Matthew 28:19 is entirely arbitrary, and unsupported even by liberal textual criticism that rejects the Comma Johanneum, the longer ending of Mark, et cetera. For good reason: there is no manuscript evidence.

Arbitrary? Do you even know what that means? Did I not provide scriptural evidences that contradict this passage? And also another manuscript of Matthew by Shem Tob that was uncovered not having this verse written this way? And also the account of Eusebius quoting this very scripture without the use of the trinity but instead using "in my name"? And also the evidence of 1 John 5:7-8 also referencing the trinity not existing in the LXX? The trinity is a false doctrine pushed by men (I'll try not to mention your friends in the catholic church). Therefore, I didn't just arbitrarily decide to not accept this scripture. I did research, I studied, and drew this conclusion. Even without looking at outside references, just the usage of "in my name" in other scriptures, the tampering of this verse becomes obvious.

 

[cgaviria]

However, given the disagreements over canonicity of various Pauline epistles, you cannot make the case that you are not reliant on the Athanasian canon. What is more, your rejection of Matthew 28:19 is entirely arbitrary, and unsupported even by liberal textual criticism that rejects the Comma Johanneum, the longer ending of Mark, et cetera. For good reason: there is no manuscript evidence.

And in case what I just said wasn't enough, here are the other scriptures indicating in my name,

And Peter said to them, Repent, and be immersed each of you in the name of Jesus Christ for a release of sins! and you shall receive the present of the holy spirit. (Acts 2:38 [ABP])

And whatever you should ask in my name, this I shall do, that [*3*should be glorified *1*the *2*father] in the son. (John 14:13 [ABP])

And everything, what ever you should do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to the God and father by him. (Colossians 3:17 [ABP])

And when they believed Philip announcing good news, the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were immersed, both men and women. (Acts 8:12 [ABP])

For not yet was it [*2*upon *3*any one *4*of them *1*falling]; but only [*2*immersed *1*being] in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 8:16 [ABP])

And he assigned them to be immersed in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to remain some days. (Acts 10:48 [ABP])

And having heard, they were immersed in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:5 [ABP])

How is it not obvious?

 

[Wgw]

Arbitrary? Do you even know what that means? Did I not provide scriptural evidences that contradict this passage? And also another manuscript of Matthew by Shem Tob that was uncovered not having this verse written this way? And also the account of Eusebius quoting this very scripture without the use of the trinity but instead using "in my name"? And also the evidence of 1 John 5:7-8 also referencing the trinity not existing in the LXX? The trinity is a false doctrine pushed by men (I'll try not to mention your friends in the catholic church). Therefore, I didn't just arbitrarily decide to not accept this scripture. I did research, I studied, and drew this conclusion. Even without looking at outside references, just the usage of "in my name" in other scriptures, the tampering of this verse becomes obvious.

One cannot interpret scripture as being self-contradictory on important matters; this is simply contrary to piety. You cannot say that because verse x:x says a, and verse y:y says b, x:x must be wrong, without accepting the premise relied on by Unitarian Universalists and various liberal Christians, that canonical scripture is basically corrupt. And if we say that canonical scripture is basically corrupt, what we are admitting in turn is that our position is not scriptural, per se; we also find ourselves unable to make the kind of polemical arguments you favour making that rely primarily on scripture.

This is not to say scripture is inherently indivisible; however, what you are basically doing is arbitrarily selecting a verse to reject, without manuscript evidence or any foundation in texrual criticism, because it disagrees with your dogma.

Now here is an interesting point: in seeking to omit Matthew 28:19, it can be argued that by violating in a severe, intentional and dogmatically driven manner textual integrity, you are preaching a different gospel, and your position should be rejected under Galatians 1:8.

 

[cgaviria]

One cannot interpret scripture as being self-contradictory on important matters; this is simply contrary to piety. You cannot say that because verse x:x says a, and verse y:y says b, x:x must be wrong, without accepting the premise relied on by Unitarian Universalists and various liberal Christians, that canonical scripture is basically corrupt. And if we say that canonical scripture is basically corrupt, what we are admitting in turn is that our position is not scriptural, per se; we also find ourselves unable to make the kind of polemical arguments you favour making that rely primarily on scripture.

This is not to say scripture is inherently indivisible; however, what you are basically doing is arbitrarily selecting a verse to reject, without manuscript evidence or any foundation in texrual criticism, because it disagrees with your dogma.

Now here is an interesting point: in seeking to omit Matthew 28:19, it can be argued that by violating in a severe, intentional and dogmatically driven manner textual integrity, you are preaching a different gospel, and your position should be rejected under Galatians 1:8.

I am rejecting a gospel by the men that pushed the verses onto the scripture. So let me ask you, by which way should men be baptized?

in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit?

OR

in the name of Jesus Christ?

 

[Wgw]

I am rejecting a gospel by the men that pushed the verses onto the scripture. So let me ask you, by which way should men be baptized?

in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit?

OR

in the name of Jesus Christ?

Since when is the Son not Jesus Christ? Hmm?

 

[cgaviria]

Since when is the Son not Jesus Christ? Hmm?

Which of the two should we baptize in? Be direct in your answer.

 

[Wgw]

Which of the two should we baptize in? Be direct in your answer.

No, I am going to press you on this point. Is Jesus Christ not the Son?

 

[Grafted In]

I do too, although I believe we should exercise caution regarding religious experiences that could be regarded as relevant to doctrine.

How can you agree with me and not agree with me equally?
If you have Scriptural proof that my experience is not Scriptural or doctrinal would you please share with me.

 

[Wgw]

How can you agree with me and not agree with me equally?
If you have Scriptural proof that my experience is not Scriptural or doctrinal would you please share with me.

I do not comment on the authenticity of private experiences. I merely urge that they be regarded with extreme caution and not accepted without intense and careful discernment including pastoral discernment.

 

[Grafted In]

I understand. And of course you are right.
How I wish I had kept my experience between Jesus and myself because the more I share it the more I tend to believe that was what He intended.
But it's too late. A day will come when I will have to answer for the way that I cherished His gift to me.

 

[Der Alte]

Arbitrary? Do you even know what that means? Did I not provide scriptural evidences that contradict this passage? And also another manuscript of Matthew by Shem Tob that was uncovered not having this verse written this way? And also the account of Eusebius quoting this very scripture without the use of the trinity but instead using "in my name"? And also the evidence of 1 John 5:7-8 also referencing the trinity not existing in the LXX? The trinity is a false doctrine pushed by men (I'll try not to mention your friends in the catholic church). Therefore, I didn't just arbitrarily decide to not accept this scripture. I did research, I studied, and drew this conclusion. Even without looking at outside references, just the usage of "in my name" in other scriptures, the tampering of this verse becomes obvious.

Nonsense Shem Tov is not original. Here is part of an article from Cambridge University.

Responding to assertions and evidence in a 1997 New Testament Studies article by R. F. Shedinger (and to George Howard, the editor of the text in question), this article demonstrates with fourteen textual examples and circumstantial evidence (Isaac Velasquez's Arabic gospel translation) that the Hebrew Matthew contained in Shem-Tob's Even Bohan (1) is part of the western harmonized gospel tradition, (2) is especially, often uniquely, related to the traditions which lie behind the Middle Dutch Liège Harmony, and (3) is translated from a medieval Latin Vorlage. In no way is it (pace Shedinger) related to p45 or (pace Howard) pre-Johannine.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=3410392​

1 John 5:7-8 has no bearing on Matthew 28:19. Matthew 28:19 with the Triadic formula was quoted by ECF years before there ever was a Shem Tov.

To verify citations, [ECF Link]


1. Ignatius – The Epistle to the Philadelphians [30-107 a.d.], [a disciple of John.] [218 + years before Nicaea]

Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better

"Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another.

2. Irenaeus – Against Heresies Book III [a.d. 120-202.], [a student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.] [123 + years before Nicaea]

That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."308 And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God,309 He said to them," Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "

3. Justin – 1st Apology Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism. [110-165 a.d. ][ca. 175 years before Nicaea]

Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127

4. Tertullian – The Prescription Against Heretics.1 [a.d. 145-220] [105 + years before Nicaea]

Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to "go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost." 203

4a. Tertullian – On Baptism. [105 + years before Nicaea]

For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

5. The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. – Part II. – Dogmatical and Historical. (c.170-c.236). [89 + years before Nicaea]

The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy (disposition) and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "265 And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth.

6. Cyprian – Treatise XII.1 – Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews. [c.200-258][67 + years before Nicaea]

And He laid His right hand upon me, and said, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and He that liveth and was dead; and, lo, I am living for evermore289 and I have the keys of death and of hell."290 Likewise in the Gospel, the Lord after His resurrection says to His disciples: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

7. Origen – de Principiis Book I [c.185-c.254] [71+ years before Nicaea]

From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit.

8. The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. –

Chapter VII. – Concerning Baptism. [120 AD][205 years before Nicaea]

1. And concerning baptism,73 thus baptize ye:74 Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,75 in living water.76 2. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou3canst not in cold, in warm. 3. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice77 upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 4. But before the baptism let the 4 baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but thou shalt order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

9. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles – Book II. Of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. [Late 2d to early 3d century] [100 + years before Nicaea]

Let the presbyters be esteemed by you to represent us the apostles, and let them be the teachers of divine knowledge; since our Lord, when He sent us, said, "Go ye, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

10. Life and Conduct of the Holy Women Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca [mid 3d century] [75 years before Nicaea]

XIV. Therefore the great Paul straightway taking her hand, went into the house of Philotheus, and baptised her in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost.

11. Tatian – The Diatessaron [ca. 175] [150 years before Nicaea]

Then said Jesus unto them, I have been given all authority in heaven 5 and earth; and as my Father hath sent me, so I also send you. Go now into [sup]6[/sup] all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and 7 baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto 8 the end of the world.

12. At the seventh Council of Carthage in 256 [69 years before Nicaea], a bishop named Vincentius of Thibaris said, "We have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, 'Go ye, lay on hands in My name, expel demons.' And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'"

Vincentius' second quotation is from Matthew 28:19. Despite attempts by some interpreters to connect the first quotation to Matthew 10:8, the references to going, laying on hands, expelling demons, and doing so in My name add up to a reference to Mark 16:15- 18, especially when placed side-by-side with the parallel passage from Matthew​

Seventh Council of Carthage - Concerning the Baptism of Heretics. The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics. 256 a.d. [69 years before Nicaea]

13. Lucius of Castra Galbae said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt should have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out of doors, and to be trodden under foot of men." And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

14. Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother6 the Catholic Church, brethren, hath always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go ye and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

15. Euchratius of Thenae said: God and our Lord Jesus Christ, teaching the apostles with His own mouth, has entirely completed our faith, and the grace of baptism, and the rule of the ecclesiastical law, saying: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

16. Vincentius of Thibaris said: We know that heretics are worse than Gentiles. If, therefore, being converted, they should wish to come to the Lord, we have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, "Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons." And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

ECF Link

A website that lists, and links, 26 occurrences of the Matt 28:19 Triadic formula, in the early church fathers. ​

 

[cgaviria]

Nonsense Shem Tov is not original. Here is part of an article from Cambridge University.

Responding to assertions and evidence in a 1997 New Testament Studies article by R. F. Shedinger (and to George Howard, the editor of the text in question), this article demonstrates with fourteen textual examples and circumstantial evidence (Isaac Velasquez's Arabic gospel translation) that the Hebrew Matthew contained in Shem-Tob's Even Bohan (1) is part of the western harmonized gospel tradition, (2) is especially, often uniquely, related to the traditions which lie behind the Middle Dutch Liège Harmony, and (3) is translated from a medieval Latin Vorlage. In no way is it (pace Shedinger) related to p45 or (pace Howard) pre-Johannine.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=3410392​

1 John 5:7-8 has no bearing on Matthew 28:19. Matthew 28:19 with the Triadic formula was quoted by ECF years before there ever was a Shem Tov.

To verify citations, [ECF Link]


1. Ignatius – The Epistle to the Philadelphians [30-107 a.d.], [a disciple of John.] [218 + years before Nicaea]

Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better

"Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another.

2. Irenaeus – Against Heresies Book III [a.d. 120-202.], [a student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.] [123 + years before Nicaea]

That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."308 And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God,309 He said to them," Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "

3. Justin – 1st Apology Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism. [110-165 a.d. ][ca. 175 years before Nicaea]

Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127

4. Tertullian – The Prescription Against Heretics.1 [a.d. 145-220] [105 + years before Nicaea]

Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to "go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost." 203

4a. Tertullian – On Baptism. [105 + years before Nicaea]

For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

5. The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. – Part II. – Dogmatical and Historical. (c.170-c.236). [89 + years before Nicaea]

The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy (disposition) and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "265 And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth.

6. Cyprian – Treatise XII.1 – Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews. [c.200-258][67 + years before Nicaea]

And He laid His right hand upon me, and said, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and He that liveth and was dead; and, lo, I am living for evermore289 and I have the keys of death and of hell."290 Likewise in the Gospel, the Lord after His resurrection says to His disciples: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

7. Origen – de Principiis Book I [c.185-c.254] [71+ years before Nicaea]

From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit.

8. The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. –

Chapter VII. – Concerning Baptism. [120 AD][205 years before Nicaea]

1. And concerning baptism,73 thus baptize ye:74 Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,75 in living water.76 2. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou3canst not in cold, in warm. 3. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice77 upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 4. But before the baptism let the 4 baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but thou shalt order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

9. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles – Book II. Of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. [Late 2d to early 3d century] [100 + years before Nicaea]

Let the presbyters be esteemed by you to represent us the apostles, and let them be the teachers of divine knowledge; since our Lord, when He sent us, said, "Go ye, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

10. Life and Conduct of the Holy Women Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca [mid 3d century] [75 years before Nicaea]

XIV. Therefore the great Paul straightway taking her hand, went into the house of Philotheus, and baptised her in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost.

11. Tatian – The Diatessaron [ca. 175] [150 years before Nicaea]

Then said Jesus unto them, I have been given all authority in heaven 5 and earth; and as my Father hath sent me, so I also send you. Go now into [sup]6[/sup] all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and 7 baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto 8 the end of the world.

12. At the seventh Council of Carthage in 256 [69 years before Nicaea], a bishop named Vincentius of Thibaris said, "We have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, 'Go ye, lay on hands in My name, expel demons.' And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'"

Vincentius' second quotation is from Matthew 28:19. Despite attempts by some interpreters to connect the first quotation to Matthew 10:8, the references to going, laying on hands, expelling demons, and doing so in My name add up to a reference to Mark 16:15- 18, especially when placed side-by-side with the parallel passage from Matthew​

Seventh Council of Carthage - Concerning the Baptism of Heretics. The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics. 256 a.d. [69 years before Nicaea]

13. Lucius of Castra Galbae said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt should have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out of doors, and to be trodden under foot of men." And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

14. Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother6 the Catholic Church, brethren, hath always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go ye and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

15. Euchratius of Thenae said: God and our Lord Jesus Christ, teaching the apostles with His own mouth, has entirely completed our faith, and the grace of baptism, and the rule of the ecclesiastical law, saying: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

16. Vincentius of Thibaris said: We know that heretics are worse than Gentiles. If, therefore, being converted, they should wish to come to the Lord, we have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, "Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons." And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

ECF Link

A website that lists, and links, 26 occurrences of the Matt 28:19 Triadic formula, in the early church fathers. ​

So by which baptism should we baptize?

the father, the son, and the holy ghost?

OR

in the name of Jesus Christ?

 

[Der Alte]

So by which baptism should we baptize?

the father, the son, and the holy ghost?

OR

in the name of Jesus Christ?

What happened to your argument that Matt 28:19 was fake? I think we can't go wrong if we obey the words of Jesus. We do not know what words were spoken at any baptism mentioned in the NT. There are no baptisms recorded in the NT where two people enter the water, one baptizes the other, the one doing the baptizing says "In the name of Jesus" and they both exit the water. There are only two actual baptisms recorded the baptism of Jesus and the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch. In neither of those are the words "in the name of Jesus" spoken." Name in the NT also refers to the authority.

Act 4:7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? ​

 

[cgaviria]

What happened to your argument that Matt 28:19 was fake? I think we can't go wrong if we obey the words of Jesus. We do not know what words were spoken at any baptism mentioned in the NT. There are no baptisms recorded in the NT where two people enter the water, one baptizes the other, the one doing the baptizing says "In the name of Jesus" and they both exit the water. There are only two actual baptisms recorded the baptism of Jesus and the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch. In neither of those are the words "in the name of Jesus" spoken." Name in the NT also refers to the authority.

Act 4:7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? ​

so which one do you suggest we baptize in?

 

[Der Alte]

so which one do you suggest we baptize in?

What part of my post did you not understand?

 

[cgaviria]

What part of my post did you not understand?

Your post seemed unclear to me, so I am asking you, in which "words" should we baptize in?

in the name of the Father, the son, and the holy ghost?

or

in the name of jesus christ?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Seeking intercession from Mary and the saints is evil, and they are also dead, so how could they intercede for you?

Seeking such intercession is not evil. It is acceptable and can even be good. They, those who have gone before us, are part of the great cloud of witnesses that Hebrews 11:1 - 12:2 speak of. They are still part of the community of Christ. They are alive in Christ. "In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus." Romans 6:11. Paul says of himself "My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better." Phil 1:21.

there is only one intercessor, and it is Jesus Christ, who was resurrected, and now sits at the right hand of the Father.

I presume that based on this you neither request nor accept intercession from any human being. Christians pray for one another.

How do you know which group I am part of? Don't think for one minute that what I'm saying just applies to the catholic church.

I'm sorry. I presumed that you were a disciple of Ellen White. So then which group are you a part of?

 

[cgaviria]

Seeking such intercession is not evil. It is acceptable and can even be good. They, those who have gone before us, are part of the great cloud of witnesses that Hebrews 11:1 - 12:2 speak of. They are still part of the community of Christ. They are alive in Christ. "In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus." Romans 6:11. Paul says of himself "My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better." Phil 1:21.



I presume that based on this you neither request nor accept intercession from any human being. Christians pray for one another.



I'm sorry. I presumed that you were a disciple of Ellen White. So then which group are you a part of?

You don't ask for intercession from people that are dead. You ask intercession from Jesus Christ. He is the mediator between God and men. I'm not part of "any group", I am a believer of Jesus Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

Your post seemed unclear to me, so I am asking you, in which "words" should we baptize in?

in the name of the Father, the son, and the holy ghost?

or

in the name of jesus christ?

In my previous post I said "I think we can't go wrong if we obey the words of Jesus." Is that unclear?

 

[chevyontheriver]

The conspiracy runs even deeper. The same Catholics (maybe proto-orthodox is a better term) who developed and believed in early hagiography and Marian devotion were the ones who chose the canon of Scripture you consider holy..

you're absolutely right. Which is why we must also analyze the versions of the manuscripts that some of our english translations are based out of that were handed down to us. Its important to get into deep study and research, otherwise you're merely just believing what "you're told" by the mainstream churches of today.

In 'agreeing' with Aelred I hope you realize that you have just undermined what I presume is your acceptance of the received canon of the Bible. Now maybe you are willing to cut out books of the Bible. I don't know. Why do 'the mainstream churches of today' agree on a New Testament canon? You seem to indicate that by 'deep study' you can decide what is acceptable in the canon of the Bible. For me, the Church, the pillar and ground of truth (1 Tim 3:15), has decided the canon under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. No amount of 'deep study' can undo that, and thus I know what the Bible contains. The same Church that asked for intercession from the saints who have gone before us was the Church that formed the canon of the Bible.