The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus Explained

[AV1611VET]

What makes you guys distinct amongst the rest? There are so many denominations.

QV please: http://www.gotquestions.org/Independent-Baptists.html

 

[cgaviria]

QV please: http://www.gotquestions.org/Independent-Baptists.html

I'm assuming they also baptize in the name of the Trinity as you believe?

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm assuming they also baptize in the name of the Trinity as you believe?

Yes, sir.

My pastor says:

"I baptize you, my [brother/sister], in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Buried in the likeness of His death [he submerges you, then pulls you up], raised in the likeness of His resurrection."

 

[chevyontheriver]

You're getting confused, I said pray to the Father, not to Jesus Christ. You pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Of course Paul asked for prayer, we are to pray FOR our brethren amongst us.

I'm not confused. Christians pray for one another. You seem to have invalidated that entirely. I ask all sorts of Christians to pray for me.

 

[Wgw]

Yes, sir.

My pastor says:

"I baptize you, my [brother/sister], in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Buried in the likeness of His death [he submerges you, then pulls you up], raised in the likeness of His resurrection."

I was amused by the classical Landmarkist error given in that reference, which naively fails to recognize that the Paulicans amd Albigenses were Gnostic dualists whose greatly unusual beliefs would be correctly rejected and indeed rightly derided by your typical Independent Baptist. If you have any doubt on this, I can provide you with a translation of the Armenian Paulican document known as The Key of Truth.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Therefore, I don't declare myself to be of any denomination. I am a follower of Jesus Christ.

So if I wanted to become a member of your group, where would I find it? which address could I find such a place? How would I find it in the phone book? How would I not arrive at a place you would consider the wrong place? Saint Augustine had an answer for that question. He said to ask people where is the Church that is known by all to be 'Catholic'.

 

[cgaviria]

Yes, sir.

My pastor says:

"I baptize you, my [brother/sister], in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Buried in the likeness of His death [he submerges you, then pulls you up], raised in the likeness of His resurrection."

Are you aware that there are scriptures contradicting the baptizing in the name of the trinity?

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you aware that there are scriptures contradicting the baptizing in the name of the trinity?

No.

 

[cgaviria]

I'm not confused. Christians pray for one another. You seem to have invalidated that entirely. I ask all sorts of Christians to pray for me.

Of course you ought to pray for your fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ. But not pray TO them. You pray FOR them. You only pray TO the Father. In the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[cgaviria]

So if I wanted to become a member of your group, where would I find it? which address could I find such a place? How would I find it in the phone book? How would I not arrive at a place you would consider the wrong place? Saint Augustine had an answer for that question. He said to ask people where is the Church that is known by all to be 'Catholic'.

When I say I don't belong to any group, I literally mean I don't belong to any group. I haven't found any church upholding all correct doctrine nor one that is truly filled with the spirit. I do, however, share scripture with a few people that I know. So for now, as I've said in previous posts, I am both a student of scripture, and a believer of Jesus Christ.

 

[cgaviria]

No.

Here are the scriptures that contradict it,

And Peter said to them, Repent, and be immersed each of you in the name of Jesus Christ for a release of sins! and you shall receive the present of the holy spirit. (Acts 2:38 [ABP])

And whatever you should ask in my name, this I shall do, that [*3*should be glorified *1*the *2*father] in the son. (John 14:13 [ABP])

And everything, what ever you should do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to the God and father by him. (Colossians 3:17 [ABP])

And when they believed Philip announcing good news, the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were immersed, both men and women. (Acts 8:12 [ABP])

For not yet was it [*2*upon *3*any one *4*of them *1*falling]; but only [*2*immersed *1*being] in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 8:16 [ABP])

And he assigned them to be immersed in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to remain some days. (Acts 10:48 [ABP])

And having heard, they were immersed in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:5 [ABP])

The baptism was performed in the name of Jesus Christ alone. So one must then ask, why is there a contradiction?

 

[AV1611VET]

The baptism was performed in the name of Jesus Christ alone. So one must then ask, why is there a contradiction?

Are you familiar with a concept called ontological subordination?

In the Old Testament, we see God the Father as the predominant One doing this-and-that, with the other Two "in the background," so to speak, making cameo appearances.

At the beginning of the New Testament times, we see God the Son taking center stage, with the other Two "in the background."

When Christ's ministry on earth was done, He ascended into Heaven and God the Spirit took center stage.

He (God the Spirit) now has center stage until He goes up in the Rapture* and the Son comes back and takes center stage for 1000 years.

After that, He will turn everything back over to the Father for the period of time we call eternity future.

To answer your question, the Holy Ghost hadn't come yet, and being baptized in His name wasn't required.

Thus, ontological subordination teaches that ... if anything ... one should be baptized in the name of the Holy Ghost only.

HOWEVER, we are commanded today to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

So even ontological subordination doesn't fully explain it, but it does shed light on how God does things.

Here's the short answer:

Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost ... so we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

* 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

[cgaviria]

Are you familiar with a concept called ontological subordination?

I am not acquainted with the "terms" men call the doctrines of God. I rather just know what the doctrines are as revealed by scripture than know the countless terms men call this or that. Its foolish to me.

In the Old Testament, we see God the Father as the predominant One doing this-and-that, with the other Two "in the background," so to speak, making cameo appearances.

I know what you're referring to, but can you quote me a scripture that you're referring to?

At the beginning of the New Testament times, we see God the Son taking center stage, with the other Two "in the background."

The son has always been center stage, but was revealed to us when he came in the flesh. He spoke the world into existence, that indicates that he has always had precedence over all things.

When Christ's ministry on earth was done, He ascended into Heaven and God the Spirit took center stage.

Jesus Christ is still center stage, now he is sitting at the right hand of the Father.

He (God the Spirit) now has center stage until He goes up in the Rapture* and the Son comes back and takes center stage for 1000 years.

I have never read a scripture about the Holy Spirit departing believers. I believe the children of God will always have the Holy Spirit once they receive it. It is the divine guidance of God and the righteousness of God imparted by him. The "rapture" is a misleading term for the events occurring at the second coming. What many perceive as the "rapture" is in fact the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the instant (twinkle of an eye) transformation into immortal bodies of those that are alive in him, at his second coming.

fter that, He will turn everything back over to the Father for the period of time we call eternity future.

The kingdom is not turned over the the Father at his second coming. Jesus Christ comes to setup his earthly rulership along with the saints for 1,000 years. After the 1,000 years, at the new earth and new heaven, is then everything turned over to the Father.

To answer your question, the Holy Ghost hadn't come yet, and being baptized in His name wasn't required.

The Spirit of God has always been present and was in fact also given to people in the old testament. We see evidences of it. But now it is dispensed differently because it imparts the true righteousness of God, which before it didn't.

Thus, ontological subordination teaches that ... if anything ... one should be baptized in the name of the Holy Ghost only.

All things are to be done in the name of Jesus Christ, that was the instruction given.

 

[chevyontheriver]

When I say I don't belong to any group, I literally mean I don't belong to any group. I haven't found any church upholding all correct doctrine nor one that is truly filled with the spirit. I do, however, share scripture with a few people that I know. So for now, as I've said in previous posts, I am both a student of scripture, and a believer of Jesus Christ.

So you are a church of one?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Of course you ought to pray for your fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ. But not pray TO them. You pray FOR them. You only pray TO the Father. In the name of Jesus Christ.

So you do not even allow prayer to Jesus or prayer to the Holy Spirit? Next I suppose you will say that Jesus Christ was a created being or something?

As to prayer, if you define prayer as worship, then you can only worship God alone, so you can only pray to God alone. But if you define prayer as conversation, then you can converse with anyone. What, pray tell, is the reason you limit prayer to worship when the English language uses the word much more broadly? Did you notice that in plain but only moderately antiquated English I just prayed to you?

 

[Timothew]

So you are a church of one?

He just said that he is not.
"I do, however, share scripture with a few people that I know. So for now, as I've said in previous posts, I am both a student of scripture, and a believer of Jesus Christ."

He is a believer of Jesus Christ and he meets with fellow believers. What more do you want? Does he have to become Roman Catholic to make you happy? Give it a rest.

 

[chevyontheriver]

He just said that he is not.
"I do, however, share scripture with a few people that I know. So for now, as I've said in previous posts, I am both a student of scripture, and a believer of Jesus Christ."

He is a believer of Jesus Christ and he meets with fellow believers. What more do you want? Does he have to become Roman Catholic to make you happy? Give it a rest.

I have shared Scripture with a neighbor. He has shared Scripture with me, and I with him, though I doubt he considers be a believer. I think he is capable of giving the number of people in his church if he wants to. He has said he does not belong to any group. He can answer if he chooses. If not, I will give it a rest.

 

[cgaviria]

So you do not even allow prayer to Jesus or prayer to the Holy Spirit? Next I suppose you will say that Jesus Christ was a created being or something?

As to prayer, if you define prayer as worship, then you can only worship God alone, so you can only pray to God alone. But if you define prayer as conversation, then you can converse with anyone. What, pray tell, is the reason you limit prayer to worship when the English language uses the word much more broadly? Did you notice that in plain but only moderately antiquated English I just prayed to you?

How much clearer can I be? Prayer should ONLY directed to the FATHER. This is what even Jesus himself taught.

 

[cgaviria]

So you are a church of one?

I am spiritually part of the church of Jesus Christ, which is ONE church of many brothers and sisters in Christ that are alive throughout the earth and of those who have also fallen asleep.

 

[Wgw]

When I say I don't belong to any group, I literally mean I don't belong to any group. I haven't found any church upholding all correct doctrine nor one that is truly filled with the spirit. I do, however, share scripture with a few people that I know. So for now, as I've said in previous posts, I am both a student of scripture, and a believer of Jesus Christ.

I would think that not finding any church upholding what you consider to be a correct interpretation might give you pause, particularly in light of Matthew 16:18.