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The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus Explained

chevyontheriver

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Evil men have indeed come from amidst God's people, and have departed from them and done their evil deeds. The catholic church is a very wicked church, and not only have they persecuted and massacred believers in Jesus Christ, they have also created their own doctrines contrary to scripture, and they have also made themselves wealthy contrary to what Jesus Christ commanded.
Your ax must be well ground by now. Give up grinding it a moment and bother to see the saints that have been produced in the Catholic Church. Then go ahead and see if you can explain them all away. That could be dangerous for you though, if you can't explain them all away. So maybe you don't really want to do that.
 
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chevyontheriver

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We are instructed to pray TO the FATHER only, in the name of Jesus Christ. Show me scriptures proving otherwise.

I'll show you just one. That SHOULD be enough. Saint Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts 7:59 where he prayed to Jesus. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Explain that one away. Then I'll hit you with another.
 
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cgaviria

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Your ax must be well ground by now. Give up grinding it a moment and bother to see the saints that have been produced in the Catholic Church. Then go ahead and see if you can explain them all away. That could be dangerous for you though, if you can't explain them all away. So maybe you don't really want to do that.

Its deceptive, did Jesus himself not warn against people coming in his name even doing mighty works? Whoever does not FOLLOW AFTER THE TEACHINGS of Jesus Christ are not of his flock. What did Jesus Christ instruct? Go and sell everything that you have, and come and follow me. Has the catholic church done this? No. They have made themselves into one of the richest entities in the entire world. The Catholic church is riddled with false doctrine contrary to scripture, it is also riddled with pagan symbology and idolatry, and it has also murdered and persecuted countless people including the believers in Jesus Christ. When Paul warned against the great apostasy, it was speaking concerning the catholic church that was about to come into existence. The catholic church is also prophesied against in the Book of Revelation. I highly advise you to come out of that wicked institution.
 
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cgaviria

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I'll show you just one. That SHOULD be enough. Saint Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts 7:59 where he prayed to Jesus. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Explain that one away. Then I'll hit you with another.

Jesus does listen to petitions done to him, as he sits at the right hand of the power, but he has instructed us to pray to the Father in his name. So although you can make specific petitions from Jesus himself, we ought to pray to the Father as even Jesus himself is subjected to the will of the Father, so therefore this is why I say we ought to direct prayer to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.
 
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thecolorsblend

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We are instructed to pray TO the FATHER only, in the name of Jesus Christ.
If you're conflating prayer (eg, petitioning) with latria (eg, worship), I think I can see why you are confused in this matter. Yes, latria is for God alone. But entire passages of scripture implicitly or explicitly state that prayer for one another is a commendable act.

Prayer is not necessarily latria. It can be (when it's directed to God) but that's not absolute. I say this because, contextually, you seem to be mixing latria up with prayer. And they are not the same thing.

Again, you have the scriptural liberty to ask others to pray for you. When Christians request that their friends pray for them, they're not obeying what they have been commanded to do.
 
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BelieveTheWord

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It is not brainwashing to consider the historical evidence which I posted in my previous post, above.
No it is not. It is brainwashing when you can't consider anything other than what someone else told you. The early Christian writings support an eternal punishment. They don't say anything about unjust torture that continues long after the suffered more than enough for their sins.
 
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cgaviria

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If you're conflating prayer (eg, petitioning) with latria (eg, worship), I think I can see why you are confused in this matter. Yes, latria is for God alone. But entire passages of scripture implicitly or explicitly state that prayer for one another is a commendable act.

Prayer is not necessarily latria. It can be (when it's directed to God) but that's not absolute. I say this because, contextually, you seem to be mixing latria up with prayer. And they are not the same thing.

Again, you have the scriptural liberty to ask others to pray for you. When Christians request that their friends pray for them, they're not obeying what they have been commanded to do.

I am not denying that you can ask others to pray for you. The only thing I am denying is prayer directed towards saints that have died and also prayer to Mary who has also died. Prayer should be directed to the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ. If we pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ, we are are praying to the Father for them, in the name of Jesus.
 
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BelieveTheWord

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It's not really a matter of brainwashing so much as the cognitive dissonance which ensues when "eternal punishment" is asserted to somehow mean that it either is not eternal or is not punishment.
The soul is destroyed Matthew 10:28, that is punishment. It can no longer be resurrected, that is eternal. Revelation 20:14

You don't have to agree, but there is no cognitive dissonance. It also serves justice without the punishment being greater than the crime, which would make God a sinner.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Jesus does listen to petitions done to him, as he sits at the right hand of the power, but he has instructed us to pray to the Father in his name. So although you can make specific petitions from Jesus himself, we ought to pray to the Father as even Jesus himself is subjected to the will of the Father, so therefore this is why I say we ought to direct prayer to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.
So Acts is an unreliable witness in the Scriptures and saint Stephen is a bad model of how Christians should call upon the name of the Lord? Scripture and the consistent tradition of the Catholic Church holds that we may and ought to pray to each person of the Trinity. You say otherwise.
 
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cgaviria

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So Acts is an unreliable witness in the Scriptures and saint Stephen is a bad model of how Christians should call upon the name of the Lord? Scripture and the consistent tradition of the Catholic Church holds that we may and ought to pray to each person of the Trinity. You say otherwise.

I have never seen in scripture any reference to prayer to the Holy Spirit, and unless you can show me otherwise it makes no sense. The Holy Spirit abides WITHIN God's true people, so why would you pray to something within you? You ought to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, and if need be, petitions can also be made to Jesus as he listens to petitions as well.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Its deceptive, did Jesus himself not warn against people coming in his name even doing mighty works? Whoever does not FOLLOW AFTER THE TEACHINGS of Jesus Christ are not of his flock. What did Jesus Christ instruct? Go and sell everything that you have, and come and follow me. Has the catholic church done this? No. They have made themselves into one of the richest entities in the entire world. The Catholic church is riddled with false doctrine contrary to scripture, it is also riddled with pagan symbology and idolatry, and it has also murdered and persecuted countless people including the believers in Jesus Christ. When Paul warned against the great apostasy, it was speaking concerning the catholic church that was about to come into existence. The catholic church is also prophesied against in the Book of Revelation. I highly advise you to come out of that wicked institution.

It took you long enough to come to your bottom line. And yet you can neither name or provide an address so I can join your pure church. Don't worry though. I have been unimpressed by what I have seen so far and am not going to come knocking at your door to join. Scripture and my Lord are too important for me to want to do that.

I find it clever that you so promptly discounted every holy person ever in the Catholic Church so you didn't have to account for how the Catholic Church could produce them. The syllogism is 1.) Catholic Church = evil. 2.) evil produces evil. 3.) Every Catholic saint can thus be ignored.

This has been an interesting discussion. Interesting because your positions are even more extreme than the Seventh Day Adventists. I'm going to let you be. Or as someone else said, to "give it a rest'. You will be in my prayers tomorrow and I will ask the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to work in you and bless you with every grace. And I will ask Mary and the saints to carry on intercession before the mercy seat for you. Goodbye.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I have never seen in scripture any reference to prayer to the Holy Spirit, and unless you can show me otherwise it makes no sense. The Holy Spirit abides WITHIN God's true people, so why would you pray to something within you? You ought to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, and if need be, petitions can also be made to Jesus as he listens to petitions as well.

See my other message about my being done in this thread. About praying to the Holy Spirit, if you want, you can consult Scripture for your answer. That would require an openness you may be ready for some day.

Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love.
 
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cgaviria

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It took you long enough to come to your bottom line. And yet you can neither name or provide an address so I can join your pure church. Don't worry though. I have been unimpressed by what I have seen so far and am not going to come knocking at your door to join. Scripture and my Lord are too important for me to want to do that.

I find it clever that you so promptly discounted every holy person ever in the Catholic Church so you didn't have to account for how the Catholic Church could produce them. The syllogism is 1.) Catholic Church = evil. 2.) evil produces evil. 3.) Every Catholic saint can thus be ignored.

This has been an interesting discussion. Interesting because your positions are even more extreme than the Seventh Day Adventists. I'm going to let you be. Or as someone else said, to "give it a rest'. You will be in my prayers tomorrow and I will ask the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to work in you and bless you with every grace. And I will ask Mary and the saints to carry on intercession before the mercy seat for you. Goodbye.

I don't need you to be impressed by me. If you choose to deny the fact that the catholic church is erring in their ways, so be it. Soon enough all things will come to the light.
 
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Wgw

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No it is not. It is brainwashing when you can't consider anything other than what someone else told you. The early Christian writings support an eternal punishment. They don't say anything about unjust torture that continues long after the suffered more than enough for their sins.

You need to apologize for accusing @Der Alter of being brainwashed; that is an inherently inappropriate personal attack on a fellow member.
 
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Timothew

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I have shared Scripture with a neighbor. He has shared Scripture with me, and I with him, though I doubt he considers be a believer. I think he is capable of giving the number of people in his church if he wants to. He has said he does not belong to any group. He can answer if he chooses. If not, I will give it a rest.
I'm sorry. I should not have butted into your conversation.
I hope that both of you will forgive me.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I am not denying that you can ask others to pray for you. The only thing I am denying is prayer directed towards saints that have died and also prayer to Mary who has also died. Prayer should be directed to the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ. If we pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ, we are are praying to the Father for them, in the name of Jesus.
Nonsense, Christians simply ask departed saints to pray for them. This practice goes back to the beginnings of Christianity. It isn't new by any stretch of the imagination.
 
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Timothew

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Would you like to try again?
Do you mind if I try?

The passages you quoted said that there is fire and eternal punishment, correct?
If a person was consumed by the fire of hell, they would be punished, right? Do you agree with me so far?
If the person who was consumed by the fire of hell remained consumed forever, that would be eternal, right? It would last forever, so it is eternal. Are you okay with this up to here?
So the punishment of being consumed by fire is an eternal punishment. Do you agree?

So do you agree that your quoted statements do not say that there is eternal conscious torment (ECT) in hell? You haven't established that ECT is what they believed. From their statements, they could as easily be Conditionalists. I agree with each of their statements, and I am a Conditionalist.
 
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cgaviria

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Nonsense, Christians simply ask departed saints to pray for them. This practice goes back to the beginnings of Christianity. It isn't new by any stretch of the imagination.

Do you not realize that departed saints are all unconscious in death? Why do you think Jesus and the apostles refer to people that have died as being "asleep"? So therefore, when you pray to these saints, they won't hear you.
 
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Der Alte

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No it is not. It is brainwashing when you can't consider anything other than what someone else told you. The early Christian writings support an eternal punishment. They don't say anything about unjust torture that continues long after the suffered more than enough for their sins.

First you say "eternal punishment" then you say "unjust torture." If God imposes it then it is neither unjust nor torture. Here are some quotes from the early church on eternal punishment.

The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.

Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From Clement of Rome (150AD)
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.

From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:

We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)

From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)
…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . [I]t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

From Tertullian (197AD)
These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)

Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)

Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)

If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35

From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)

From Felix Minucius (226AD)
I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment… Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)

From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)

Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris” 55:10)

From Lactantius (307AD)
But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fireThe same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)

From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)
We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)

The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessings of the life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible. And that this is possible, and that we may look for eternal life, Daniel declares, And of the many righteous shall they shine as the stars forever and ever. And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)
 
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Timothew

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Der Alter,
No doubt, there are many Christians who believe in Eternal Torment. Nobody is saying that there aren't.
But surely you can see that when you quote someone saying "eternal death with punishment" for example, that death doesn't mean "eternal life with punishment".

And certainly you can see that saying that someone is sent into fire is not the same thing as saying that they remain alive in that fire forever and are never burnt up in it.

Take another look at the quotes you posted. Some of them actually do support the doctrine of ECT, but most of them are ambiguous about whether the punishment they are talking about is eternal conscious torment or eternal destruction.

It isn't fair to claim that these people agree with your view only, when what they have said also agrees with the Conditionalist View. And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.
This is the Conditionalist Statement in one verse! Those who trust in Jesus Christ will go into LIFE ETERNAL, and those who reject Him will go away into eternal punishment. Their eternal punishment is that they will be destroyed and will remain destroyed forever. They will not go into life eternal.

You and I have been in this same discussion for years, and I get really tired of people who believe in ECT continually quoting Matthew 25:46 as if it confirmed ECTism and refuted Conditionalism. It is astonishing that they can't see that it doesn't refute Conditionalism, to the point that it really looks like brainwashing.
 
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