The Pagan Firefighter

[Lukaris]

If a pagan firefighter runs into a burning building and saves a child, are his actions sinful?

No
Romans 2

 

[Hammster]

How is this to be understood?

John 15:22
"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin."

The Jews would not be able to plead that they didn’t know that Jesus was the Messiah.

 

[Hammster]

No
Romans 2

It doesn't help.

 

[Grip Docility]

Then how did Abraham keep it? How did Noah know about clean and unclean animals and first fruit sacrifices? How did Abel know how to offer the proper burnt offering? The law and Jesus are one, as He is torah made flesh. Therefore it couldn't have been born on Mount Sinai, because like Jesus, it's eternal.

The New Covenant supersedes the Old Covenant. Hebrews 9 binds even the Stone 10 to the OC. Also, The Law hadn’t been dispensed yet for Father Abe... but was dispensed later to Moses.

 

[Lukaris]

It doesn't help.

Yes, it does God will judge all according to how they lived. While the non Christian has no assurance of salvation in the Lord does not mean the Lord will not save them (Matthew 7:1-12, John 5:22-30, Revelation 20:11-15 etc.)

 

[Hammster]

Yes, it does God will judge all according to how they lived. While the non Christian has no assurance of salvation in the Lord does not mean the Lord will not save them (Matthew 7:1-12, John 5:22-30, Revelation 20:11-15 etc.)

Okay. So He judges how they live. Did the firefighter glorify God in that act?

 

[Grip Docility]

Okay. So He judges how they live. Did the firefighter glorify God in that act?

In Anti-Type, yes. In his heart, no. Did he give the glory to God? Did he boast of his achievement or humble brag?

 

[FireDragon76]

Traditional Protestant theology does have the notion of original sin, that the good works we do cannot earn salvation because of the condition we are born into. But that's far, far different from saying that saving a life, as in the case of a firefighter, could be construed as a sin.

 

[FireDragon76]

This would be the case of the woman at the well if she did what was right and left the man she was with and went back to her first husband. Without having bowed the knee to Christ such a deed would mean nothing.

It would mean alot to the people that were helped by ones good deeds.

 

[Grip Docility]

Traditional Protestant theology does have the notion of original sin, that the good works we do cannot earn salvation because of the condition we are born into. But that's far, far different from saying that saving a life, as in the case of a firefighter, could be construed as a sin.

Okay, I’ll bite.

By the Pagan man doing a positive thing, one could say that it shows God endowed all ability towards all men to accomplish positive things as well as negative things.

Notice I’m maintaining that only God is salvic and Only God is Good... but I can say that all Positive acts of mankind point to the image they were created in.

In this light... further philosophical analysis has to occur.

 

[FireDragon76]

Okay, I’ll bite.

By the Pagan man doing a positive thing, one could say that it shows God endowed all ability towards all men to accomplish positive things as well as negative things.

Notice I’m maintaining that only God is salvic and Only God is Good... but I can say that all Positive acts of mankind point to the image they were created in.

In this light... further philosophical analysis has to occur.

The unbeliever doing good works is a "mask of God", to use Luther's term. God is at work in everyone and everything to accomplish God's will.

I have read a great deal about Lutheran theology and I know its more complicated than the talking-point polemics of the Reformed approach that they want to see in Luther. Luther was not a systematic theologian and its easy to take things he said out of context.

 

[Grip Docility]

The unbeliever doing good works is a "mask of God", to use Luther's term. God is at work in everyone and everything to accomplish God's will.

I have read a great deal about Lutheran theology and I know its more complicated than the talking-point polemics of the Reformed approach that they THINK they see in Luther.

I admit that I see the working of the Holy Spirit in people that don’t even know Christ. I usually chuckle to myself and say; “He’s got plans for you”, within my Spirit. I may even offer up a prayer to God for working as majestically as He works.

 

[FireDragon76]

I admit that I see the working of the Holy Spirit in people that don’t even know Christ. I usually chuckle to myself and say; “He’s got plans for you”, within my Spirit. I may even offer up a prayer to God for working as majestically as He works.

Another doctrine that is different in Lutheranism vs. the Reformed- we believe in objective justification, that Jesus Christ is the savior of all people. This is not universalism because traditionally we acknowledge that some may reject salvation, but that doesn't change the objectivity of salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Traditional Protestant theology does have the notion of original sin, that the good works we do cannot earn salvation because of the condition we are born into. But that's far, far different from saying that saving a life, as in the case of a firefighter, could be construed as a sin.

Not really. But I guess it comes down to the view of God. Should He be glorified in all things, or not? If not, then okay. But if so, then all things done not for His glory, regardless of how good they are, are done in sin.

 

[Grip Docility]

Not really. But I guess it comes down to the view of God. Should He be glorified in all things, or not? If not, then okay. But if so, then all things done not for His glory, regardless of how good they are, are done in sin.

I actually see both sides of this discussion and see the unifying principle.

Indeed, our righteousness is filthy rags and cannot save us.

However, even if the Pegan was a devil worshiper... Believers in the “speculating” crowd that surrounding the scene of the rescue may say the Pegans act reminded them of Jesus, to the very Pegans dismay.

I’ve been corrected for saying Jesus this and Jesus that, so I might be the one that said that to the Pegan, to his dismay.

Did the act glorify that God endowed us with a desire to Love? Yes. Did the act glorify the Pegan? No. Did the Pegan simply go forth and avoid praise? Or, did the Pegan make the 6:00 news and go on and on about how he’s not a hero but just did what he hoped all would do, while reveling in the attention?

Many questions about this Pegan!

Consarnate, Hammster... you may need to write the book, titled with your OP title!

 

[Grip Docility]

Not really. But I guess it comes down to the view of God. Should He be glorified in all things, or not? If not, then okay. But if so, then all things done not for His glory, regardless of how good they are, are done in sin.

From the Calvinist standpoint... the Pegan could be one of the elect and the world could be witnessing the beginning of the Father’s draw on this elected man that will soon forsake his Paganism.

 

[Hammster]

I actually see both sides of this discussion and see the unifying principle.

Indeed, our righteousness is filthy rags and cannot save us.

However, even if the Pegan was a devil worshiper... Believers in the “speculating” crowd that surrounding the scene of the rescue may say the Pegans act reminded them of Jesus, to the very Pegans dismay.

I’ve been corrected for saying Jesus this and Jesus that, so I might be the one that said that to the Pegan, to his dismay.

Did the act glorify that God endowed us with a desire to Love? Yes. Did the act glorify the Pegan? No. Did the Pegan simply go forth and avoid praise? Or, did the Pegan make the 6:00 news and go on and on about how he’s not a hero but just did what he hoped all would do, while reveling in the attention?

Many questions about this Pegan!

Consarnate, Hammster... you may need to write the book, titled with your OP title!

What you’ve described (witnesses to the act) is whether God uses the act. I have no doubt that He does. But God also used the actions of sinful men to crucify His Son.

I guess here’s where I come down. I cannot make a positive statement that not everything should be done for His glory. Because if it’s not done for His glory, why do it?

 

[Hammster]

From the Calvinist standpoint... the Pegan could be one of the elect and the world could be witnessing the beginning of the Father’s draw on this elected man that will soon forsake his Paganism.

And that’s true. But that’s not the issue in this op.

 

[Grip Docility]

What you’ve described (witnesses to the act) is whether God uses the act. I have no doubt that He does. But God also used the actions of sinful men to crucify His Son.

I guess here’s where I come down. I cannot make a positive statement that not everything should be done for His glory. Because if it’s not done for His glory, why do it?

He does love cheerful givers! What good is an act, if the Giver of Breath to all men isn’t given glory for the act the Breath was accomplished by?

 

[Grip Docility]

And that’s true. But that’s not the issue in this op.

A person fights back and forth with a people for a time and they start to see some positive aspects about what that are fighting.

The side effect of theological debate is now I can hear the counter argument within my very own grey matter.