The Pagan Firefighter

[Hammster]

I think it's worse to believe in Christ and deny him by your life, than not knowing him at all. What do you think?

Everyone knows God exists, so it’s pretty bad to pretend that He doesn’t.

 

[Hammster]

As sinners none of our works are done purely and fully for the glory of God, because all our works are tainted by our sin. Otherwise our works would have merit before God. Additionally, if we do good works thinking, "Through this I bring glory to God, and therefore have done something worthy of praise and merit" I have again shown myself to be only a sinner. Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.

My works are not more noble because I have the name "Christian", as though my works are any less the works of a sinful wretched man. What the name "Christian" affords me is to be honest with my sin, and to confess that I am a sinner, and to trust in Christ alone.

My neighbor is hungry, therefore I give him food. The good is that my neighbor is now fed.

-CryptoLutheran

Any good believers do is because Christ is doing it through them. And Christ glorifies the Father.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Another Lutheran departing from Luther.

The Coram Mundo means that active justice, while not meritorious, is still good in relation to our fellow creatures. Again, if a man is hungry, and is fed, this is a good thing. It is a good thing because the hungry man is fed.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tree of Life]

Lutheranism is more than Luther.

It seems so. Kindof like the "apostolic traditions" are more than the apostles.

 

[GenemZ]

If a pagan firefighter runs into a burning building and saves a child, are his actions sinful?

Peter in a very noble sounding way, wanted to save Jesus' life.

He was chewed out by Jesus, who called Peter, "Satan."

21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples
that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the
hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the
law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised
to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!”
he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a
stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God,
but merely human concerns.” Mat 16:21-23​

It all depends on what God's will is. Are we capable of knowing it when His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts not ours?

Our only safe bet? Grow in grace and knowledge and LEARN how to stay filled with the Spirit. As the Spirit leads will not be our way, nor our thoughts. But, in the process should become our ways and thoughts as we mature. Our life must come from a mind that has been transformed by truth and grace. Otherwise? We remain stupid in many ways to the ways of God.

I just remembered a time when a student attending the Bible college I went to was upset because he was told he can not remain. I was a very young and sincere believer at that time in my life. I was filled with what I saw as compassion and love for this person. So,I prayed fervently That God would keep this student able to attend.

And? It happened. He was permitted to stay.

He soon became a disciplinary problem and disrupted the peace on campus. But? I was so filled with loving human feelings and concern!

I had a big lesson to learn about mere feelings that are not under the observation and guidance of God's truth. I see too much of that with Christians that have one foot in their old "nice" selves, and the kind of life in being Spirit filled that imparts wisdom and self control. Until that happens? Many are sincere and stupid. They will agree to things that are not what sound doctrine teaches. And, like that student who was granted a stay, it disrupts the peace of their nation.

Remember? ... In the wilderness of the Exodus.

The Lord granted the begging Jews their request in the wilderness and poured down from heaven quail to be eaten by all. Many died as they were yet chewing their delicious meals.

Meaning? Not all answered prayers are God's will. The solution? First learn and know sound doctrine. It will make us free if we do. Too many pastors do not know what I speak of. A few do. They feel neglected at times.

 

[Not David]

It seems so. Kindof like the "apostolic traditions" are more than the apostles.

If they are apostolic, then it cannot be more than the apostles since it comes from them.

 

[Tree of Life]

If they are apostolic, then it cannot be more than the apostles since it comes from them.

Then the same should be true of Lutheranism and its founders.

 

[Halbhh]

Hah! I don't think that this is a helpful way to frame the issue but I'll bite.

I have to vote yes because actions are never merely actions. Actions spring from beliefs and motivations. The mere action of saving the child is praiseworthy and good. But evaluated from an eternal perspective, the action is carried out by a sinner who is engaging in his own self-justification project and so even this courageous action is stained with sin and falls short of the glory of God.

In other words, if the firefighter puts forth this work on judgment day and says: "But God, I saved this child from the fire!" Then God can respond by saying: "Yes but you didn't do it out of love for me or for the child. Your action was ultimately self-motivated and I'm not impressed."

Think if we want to guess at judgement day for the lost, it's better to go with what Paul said -- 2nd chapter of Romans for those never hearing the true gospel (those that have heard the full true gospel clearly are under the conditions of the 3rd chapter of John). One thing for sure, God can see all hearts, but you and I cannot.

 

[GenemZ]

Okay. This thread isn’t about judging.

Its about judgment! How sound is ours.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Any good believers do is because Christ is doing it through them. And Christ glorifies the Father.

All works which flow from faith are good works, and are pleasing to God, regardless of their magnitude or frequency. These good works we have been created in Christ Jesus to do. For it is faith, not the works, which is pleasing. So that the smallest work, done in faith, is more than all good works the world over done without faith.

All of this is true.

This does not mean, however, that when the Pagan or the Christian feed a hungry mouth that the mouth is not then fed, and that this is itself a good--not a good which merits before God anything, but a good for God's creature.

Romans 2:14-15 says that when the Gentiles do what the Law commands though they do not know the Law, they have nevertheless obeyed it as though it were written on their hearts. Not because the Law justifies, either the one who was given the Law (the Jews) or the one who never heard of the Law (the Gentiles); but because what the Law commands is good. That said, those who have the Law will perish by the Law and those without the Law will perish without the Law, for ultimately all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and there is none with excuse, and so the commandment of God will shut the mouths of all, Jew and Gentile; for all are culpable. We have here not a justification by the Law, but rather a civil justice, a Coram Mundo Righteousness, a righteousness before the world. It is not, and is never, a Righteousness Coram Deo, a righteousness before God. Whether Jew or Gentile.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GenemZ]

Then the same should be true of Lutheranism and its founders.

Food fight.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It seems so. Kindof like the "apostolic traditions" are more than the apostles.

Lutheranism was never about Luther.
Lutheranism has always been more than Luther.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hammster]

All works which flow from faith are good works, and are pleasing to God, regardless of their magnitude or frequency. These good works we have been created in Christ Jesus to do. For it is faith, not the works, which is pleasing. So that the smallest work, done in faith, is more than all good works the world over done without faith.

All of this is true.

This does not mean, however, that when the Pagan or the Christian feed a hungry mouth that the mouth is not then fed, and that this is itself a good--not a good which merits before God anything, but a good for God's creature.

Romans 2:14-15 says that when the Gentiles do what the Law commands though they do not know the Law, they have nevertheless obeyed it as though it were written on their hearts. Not because the Law justifies, either the one who was given the Law (the Jews) or the one who never heard of the Law (the Gentiles); but because what the Law commands is good. That said, those who have the Law will perish by the Law and those without the Law will perish without the Law, for ultimately all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and there is none with excuse, and so the commandment of God will shut the mouths of all, Jew and Gentile; for all are culpable. We have here not a justification by the Law, but rather a civil justice, a Coram Mundo Righteousness, a righteousness before the world. It is not, and is never, a Righteousness Coram Deo, a righteousness before God. Whether Jew or Gentile.

-CryptoLutheran

I’ve already posted on the misuse of Romans 2.

 

[GenemZ]

Lutheranism was never about Luther.
Lutheranism has always been more than Luther.

-CryptoLutheran

Luther was a scholar pastor. He knew Hebrew and Greek. Not many to be found today. Anywhere.

 

[Hammster]

Okay, enough about Lutherans.

 

[GenemZ]

All works which flow from faith are good works, and are pleasing to God, regardless of their magnitude or frequency. These good works we have been created in Christ Jesus to do. For it is faith, not the works, which is pleasing. So that the smallest work, done in faith, is more than all good works the world over done without faith.
-CryptoLutheran

False doctrine is what many base their "faith" upon.

The fact that so many denominations exist is proof that many can not have sound
doctrinal thinking. If they did? There would not be so many divisions.

Much works are in reality wood, hay and stubble. Works done with "good feeling emotions."
But, without the Spirit's filling. 2 Cor 3:11-15

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid,
which is Jesus Christ.
(verse 11 speaks of all believers. Our foundation was having faith in Christ = regeneration)

12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood,
hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will
bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality
of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will
receive a reward.

15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames."​

Verse 15 tells us what? That the believer who walked without the filling of the Spirit? Who lived in their emotions while following unsound doctrine? Doctrines that appealed to their way of feeling and their natural way of seeing things? Though they will have all their works burned up? Though they will forfeit all eternal rewards? These ones will still be saved!

Saved because they believed in the foundation. Jesus Christ!

Welcome to the world of denominationalism. The "broad and wide" road.

 

[aiki]

Then let me clarify. You asked if those actions were God glorifying. So really, no. But you can glorify God while engaged in those actions.

And if you can't? If, say, you are asleep and cannot therefore offer God praise and glory, what then? Are you guilty of sin? Must you immediately, the moment you awake, thank God and glorify His name for His goodness in giving you sleep or be guilty of sin? What if you've had your appendix out and have been sedated into unconsciousness and can't, therefore, give God glory during your surgery? Are you sinning, then?

 

[Hammster]

And if you can't? If, say, you are asleep and cannot therefore offer God praise and glory, what then? Are you guilty of sin? Must you immediately, the moment you awake, thank God and glorify His name for His goodness in giving you sleep or be guilty of sin? What if you've had your appendix out and have been sedated into unconsciousness and can't, therefore, give God glory during your surgery? Are you sinning, then?

Okay. If this is how silly you want to be, then I’m done here. Have a great day.

 

[aiki]

Have you heard of argumentum ad absurdum? It's a way of drawing out sometimes hidden absurdities in a person's thinking and arguments. My examples/questions are offered in this vein. In arguing from 1 Corinthians 10:31 as you are, you're not acknowledging any limits to the verse's application or allowing any qualification of the verse and so are susceptible to argumentum absurdum. I don't think you actually would take the verse to the extremes I've pointed out, but your seeming rigid approach to the verse's meaning makes it appear that you might. And so I employ argumentum ad absurdum to draw this out

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Where is that found in scripture?

This would be the case of the woman at the well if she did what was right and left the man she was with and went back to her first husband. Without having bowed the knee to Christ such a deed would mean nothing.