The origins of atheism

As I was saying · Oct 2, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
No, I didn't say there was no difference. I said that they are all examples of religion.

So when you say religion did this or religion did that you lump everyone under the same banner even though some of them are like chalk and cheese? In Africa, some christians are feeding the poor, giving homes to orphans, taking care of the needy and there are muslims murdering anyone who calls themselves christians. In they are no different and all come under the name of religion, then I can only assume that you are not interested in the truth.

As I was saying · Oct 2, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
He.

Whose He?

As I was saying · Oct 2, 2015

Freodin said:
Oh, one of you who directly talks to God and he talks back! Wonderful! You might be just the person I am looking for.

See, I have this little problem that has bothering me for, well, most of my life now. I have a mystery to solve, and I cannot do it on my own.

But here I might have access to someone who directly talks to God, and he gives you the answers to your question and never fails you.

Well, I'd ask you to put in a question on my behalf. Ask him to tell you the solution for that mystery that haunts me for over 30 years now. Ask him to tell you what happened then, and what caused it.

Would you do that for me?

And, please, if you do that for me, make sure to ask him for the information about the situation I am referring to... just so that I can be certain that the answer you present - whatever it may be, positive, negative or evasive - is for the correct question.

And atheist reckon they are not cynical.

As I was saying · Oct 2, 2015

quatona said:
Yes, there is, and there is even a difference between pacifist and brutal Christians.
That´s exactly why I don´t buy into the "godless ideals" thing; and why I don´t buy into the idea of great significance of the distinction atheist vs. theist for any practical purpose.
I, the pacifist atheist, feel I have more in common with pacifist Muslims, pacifist Christians and pacifist Satanists than, say, a pacifist Christian and a brutal Christian have in common.

I wasn't asking you.

Archaeopteryx · Oct 2, 2015

As I was saying said:
Whose He?

Ana.

quatona · Oct 2, 2015

As I was saying said:
I wasn't asking you.

...but I was responding anyway, as this is an open forum.
Sorry if the response didn´t fit in your script.

Archaeopteryx · Oct 2, 2015

As I was saying said:
So when you say religion did this or religion did that you lump everyone under the same banner even though some of them are like chalk and cheese? In Africa, some christians are feeding the poor, giving homes to orphans, taking care of the needy and there are muslims murdering anyone who calls themselves christians. In they are no different and all come under the name of religion, then I can only assume that you are not interested in the truth.

Ummm... I just acknowledged that there were differences (i.e., religious diversity). You just ignored that.

Davian · Oct 2, 2015

anonymous person said:
Timeout for a second. I interrupt this regularly scheduled tit for tat back and forth internet forum argument and bickering to give you a special news bulletin.

I love you guys.

A lot of us feel we have been wronged growing up. Indeed we have. Some of us have been molested, abused, abandoned, ridiculed, and despised. For some, the perpetrator was someone close to us, someone that should have loved and protected us. For some it was a stranger. For many of us, this happened to us while we identified as Christians. For some this is not the case.

This is not the case for me. I have never believed in gods, or had the misfortune to be the victim of those other things you listed.

Now some no longer identify as Christians. That is ok. I still care for you all and want you to know that at least, if nothing else, I love you.

I want to issue a call for complete transparency, as frightening as it is.

I'll wait to see what you do with this.

If you no longer identify as a Christian because of some wrong or injustice you have received at the hand of another, then say that. If you think God is a pretty lousy guy for allowing you to be abused, then say that. If anyone is lying about why they hold or do not hold to certain beliefs, then they are hurting themselves, not the people they are lying to. I assure all of you that I am going to go to bed and rest well tonight whether everyone here is transparent or not.

So let us love one another on this forum. Surely we can all agree that we have an obligation to do so, right?

I see no such obligation. I am here for exactly what this forum's purpose is - the critical examination of the rational grounds of our most fundamental beliefs - and it may be that there are those that are unable to view this critical analysis as anything other than a personal attack.

As for a bad experience with those that are religious, I would have to say I have only had to face the condescension and vitriol aimed at me in threads such as this.

I do put this to good use though, as it serves to inoculate my teenage children against religion by reviewing these posts together.

Freodin · Oct 2, 2015

As I was saying said:
And atheist reckon they are not cynical.

That was a completely sincere request. Though I have to say that I expected a response like that.

And for you and ScottA and Chriliman, and all the rest who claims that "personal experience" is what trumps everything: I cannot prove it, I may not be able to demonstrate it (beyond the testemony of others, who have known about that for all the time in question... and testemony of others is said to be such an important thing, too.)... but I now have another personal experience to rely on.

I asked a sincere question to someone -you - who made a specific claim. And not only would you not even try to answer my request... but you didn't even bother to ask this ultimate source of answers of yours if this was real.

If you, personally, think that "and atheists reckon they are not cynical" is the correct way to adress my request, then you are a liar, because contrary to what you said before, you did not just ask God what to do. And if you think that God told you to give that response to my request, you are a fraud, because God could "read my heart" and know that I am completely sincere here... but you are not able to do that.

So, second chance for you: pray, ask... and get an answer. Who knows, you might get a good laugh out of it... it is quite an interesting story.

Davian · Oct 2, 2015

As I was saying said:
What is your position? The lotus position maybe?

My position is, I am not convinced of your religious claims.

There is not much more to do when the person you are talking to has no understanding of the supernatural and how it works.

Indeed - you make your claims but demonstrate no understanding.

No insult, just the truth which you can't handle.

<yawn>

I find the truth adds weight to my facts.

What facts? Again you pass up the opportunity to show that your convictions are on "solid ground". The evidence mounts up. You have been reduced to being argumentative. Do it again.

anonymous person · Oct 2, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
That's funny...you'd think you were replying to a post directed at you. I'm not sure how to respond to so many strawmen...those were all rhetorical questions anyway, right? The funny thing is, you get the point...kind of. If your beliefs are right, then maybe it's worthwhile. If your beliefs are wrong, it's all a waste of time. This sentence really speaks to what I was getting at though...

"There is nothing I would rather do on any day of the week, than the will of God. "

That's exactly what I was talking about...freedom. You're obligated to do the will of god...I'm not. If a slave is happy picking cotton out in the field, does that make him less of a slave? If a slave gets a comfortable life in the master's house working in the kitchen...are they more free than the beggar on the street who finds no comfort in life?

He who commits sin is a slave to it. That would be you unfortunately.

Nor am I obligated to do anything that I do not already want to do.

Freodin · Oct 2, 2015

anonymous person said:
He who commits sin is a slave to it. That would be you unfortunately.

Nor am I obligated to do anything that I do not already want to do.

So... that would mean that if you want to "sin", you and not a slave to it and not obligated to do anything that you do not already want to do?

anonymous person · Oct 2, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
It's a trap! *best Admiral Akbar voice i can do*

That's a really sweet sentiment, anonymous. Surely though, you realize that most of us cannot be completely transparent. If I gave my real opinions of christians, christianity, religion, etc....I would be banned from this site by tomorrow morning.

There are multiple rules that keep atheists from fully expressing themselves, as well as rules which defend the beliefs of christians who aren't all that great at defending their beliefs by themselves.

In truth, I can kind of understand why. It's a forum for christians...we atheists are the guests here. I think the rules stifle the honest and free exchange of ideas between different people, cultures, beliefs...but that's not what this site is about anyway. It's primarily for christians to talk about christian stuff.

Would you like my email address? Would you like to talk to me in a private conversation? I would love to hear why it is that you really believe what you believe.

anonymous person · Oct 2, 2015

Freodin said:
So... that would mean that if you want to "sin", you and not a slave to it and not obligated to do anything that you do not already want to do?

He who commits sin does so because he chooses to. He chooses to because he likes to. Such a one is a slave to their lusts and base passions and prideful estimation of themselves.

He who chooses not to sin but to do what is good and just and pure and Holy does so because they choose to. They choose to because they like to do those things. He is a slave to righteousness.

You forget my friend, that the concept of servitude does not preclude one from voluntarily becoming a slave. We are slaves of whatever we freely choose to be led and mastered by.

anonymous person · Oct 2, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Given your history, are you sure that's wise?

It is always wise to do what is right even if people feel some kind of way about it.

Colter · Oct 2, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
Keep in mind, this will all depend on how seriously you take your christianity. I'm sure there are some christians who simply believe in Jesus and their religion doesn't really affect their lives at all. You don't strike me as one of those though...

So to start, if you go to church regularly...you've lost your entire Sunday mornings. You lose all kinds of freedoms for roughly 1/21 of your waking hours every week. Added up over sixty years...and well, you've spent entire years doing what others have wanted you to do. Of course, if your beliefs are true...you'll probably view this as time well spent. If your beliefs are wrong though...then you've wasted entire years of your life...a large chunk of time that you'll never get back. Perhaps this is part of the reason you hate atheists? Deep down you feel like it's a waste of time...and you resent atheists for not fearing hell and judgement the way you do. Overall though, this is a small example of the freedom you've lost.

Would you like to hear more?

Says the atheist who spends so much time on a Christian forum. And it appears Christians live rent free in her head?

Christianity is a way of life, faith then encompasses everything the believer does. Every day is a holy day for the faith child of God. We seek to ascertain the will of God in all things. It's sort of like the atheist faith fir those dedicated to it, your atheism seems to occupy much of your thought life.

anonymous person · Oct 2, 2015

Cearbhall said:
Well, I suppose I can't speak for anyone else, but that has nothing to do with my atheism. I'd say that these feelings are much more common among disillusioned Christians than actual atheists.

I'm sure there's a sub-board somewhere for survivors of abuse, if anyone here needs it. I'm not sure where it might be. That was a bit of an unexpected interjection.

It was a call for transparency and love.

I have noticed no one addressed the question I asked, so I will ask it again. Surely we are obligated to love one another, right?

anonymous person · Oct 2, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Loudmouth was in the store. He saw that, up close, it wasn't a Rolex. It wasn't even a watch.

He was in the wrong store.

anonymous person · Oct 2, 2015

Davian said:
This is not the case for me. I have never believed in gods, or had the misfortune to be the victim of those other things you listed.

I'll wait to see what you do with this.

I see no such obligation. I am here for exactly what this forum's purpose is - the critical examination of the rational grounds of our most fundamental beliefs - and it may be that there are those that are unable to view this critical analysis as anything other than a personal attack.

As for a bad experience with those that are religious, I would have to say I have only had to face the condescension and vitriol aimed at me in threads such as this.

I do put this to good use though, as it serves to inoculate my teenage children against religion by reviewing these posts together.

Inoculate them from love? Is love so deadly and vile a thing to you that you would view it as something to be inoculated from?

And yes Davian, you indeed have at a time in your life felt a great injustice had been done. It may not have been a sentiment you reserved for yourself but maybe for a loved one. Many times when those we love die, we feel some kind of way. Especially if they have had to suffer.

I have found in my ministry that this is the case more times than not.

Colter · Oct 2, 2015

Cearbhall said:
Ok. Could you give some examples of such philosophies?

That's completely fine. I understand that if you don't support it, then you would consider them to be in error. I have no problem with that. However, I will still call them Christians.

Godless materialism, Evolutionism with no ultimate creator. Secular totalitarianism. All theses are generally godless philosophies of life.

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