The origins of atheism

[Chriliman]

Timeout for a second. I interrupt this regularly scheduled tit for tat back and forth internet forum argument and bickering to give you a special news bulletin.

I love you guys.

A lot of us feel we have been wronged growing up. Indeed we have. Some of us have been molested, abused, abandoned, ridiculed, and despised. For some, the perpetrator was someone close to us, someone that should have loved and protected us. For some it was a stranger. For many of us, this happened to us while we identified as Christians. For some this is not the case.

Now some no longer identify as Christians. That is ok. I still care for you all and want you to know that at least, if nothing else, I love you.

I want to issue a call for complete transparency, as frightening as it is. If you no longer identify as a Christian because of some wrong or injustice you have received at the hand of another, then say that. If you think God is a pretty lousy guy for allowing you to be abused, then say that. If anyone is lying about why they hold or do not hold to certain beliefs, then they are hurting themselves, not the people they are lying to. I assure all of you that I am going to go to bed and rest well tonight whether everyone here is transparent or not.

So let us love one another on this forum. Surely we can all agree that we have an obligation to do so, right?

Amen brother!

 

[Cearbhall]

I want to issue a call for complete transparency, as frightening as it is. If you no longer identify as a Christian because of some wrong or injustice you have received at the hand of another, then say that. If you think God is a pretty lousy guy for allowing you to be abused, then say that.

Well, I suppose I can't speak for anyone else, but that has nothing to do with my atheism. I'd say that these feelings are much more common among disillusioned Christians than actual atheists.

I'm sure there's a sub-board somewhere for survivors of abuse, if anyone here needs it. I'm not sure where it might be. That was a bit of an unexpected interjection.

 

[AV1611VET]

Buddhism.

Ever hear of it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Buddhism claims it isn't a religion.

 

[HitchSlap]

In the case of atheists, most definitely.

I contend we're both atheists...

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm not going to go into the dictionary definition...that's something clearly available to you and it hasn't helped much so far.

During an argument, one person creates a strawman when he cannot argue against the point his opponent has made. Instead, he creates a point that his opponent hasn't made...and then he argues against that. Let's look at an example where you and I are arguing about evolution and you create a strawman...

Me: Evolution is true!
You: Evolution is Satan's lie!
Me: I can show you literally hundreds of pieces of evidence from multiple scientific disciplines supporting the theory of evolution!
You: You just want to reduce mankind to a bunch of animals so you can engage in premarital sex guilt-free! (Strawman)


In this purely hypothetical example, your second statement is a strawman. It has nothing to do with any of the points I made (I made two points, that evolution is true and there's lots of evidence for it) and instead of addressing the points I made...it's an attempt to attack the perceived motives I have for defending evolution. It is a strawman created for the purpose of attacking.

Now let's look at the teapot analogy that you thought was a strawman. Keep in mind, I'll just be paraphrasing here...

You: God exists and no one has ever proven otherwise!
Atheist: That's silly. The burden of proof for god's existence is on you to demonstrate...not the other way around.
You: You're just saying that since you can't handle the truth! If you could prove god doesn't exist...you would!
Atheist: Imagine that I claimed a teapot was floating out in space somewhere between the earth and the sun...would it be true if you couldn't prove it wasn't true? (Burden of proof analogy, aka Russel's teapot)
You: Strawman!
Atheist: *facepalm*


Do you see the difference between the two examples now? In the first example, you're attacking a position I don't actually hold. That's a strawman. In the second example, the atheist just wants you to consider the analogy so you can better understand the concept of "burden of proof". That's an analogy...not a strawman.

I know the term strawman gets used incorrectly a lot, so don't feel bad about this. The important thing is that now you understand the difference and can use the term correctly.

No need to thank me...virtue is it's own reward.

Well said.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Freedom to do what? Sit at home and watch cartoons in my pajamas?

Freedom to lay around and watch porn and touch?

Freedom to wake up and reach for a glass of wine, or a joint, or six pack?

Freedom to wake up and read the latest best seller?

Freedom to wake up and jog, work in the yard, ride a bike, drive to the store, go on a vacation, lay in bed listening to music?

Freedom to have sex all day?

Freedom to run around looking for someone to have sex with?

Freedom to do whatever it is you do on Sundays?

Freedom to go out and fly a kite?

I go to church on more than just Sunday morning my friend. I go whenever I can because I want to. I love going to be with my brothers and sisters. I love being in a place where people can come who have become tired of spending their Sunday mornings engaging in trifles and are seeking some true and lasting peace, joy, and meaningfulness in their lives.

I earnestly seek to spend every waking moment in the presence of God. I assure you my friend, there is nothing that I have entrusted to Him, whether it be my time, my money, my dreams, my goals, my ambitions, and yes my Sunday mornings, that He has not kept and not only that but taken and blessed and restored to me ten fold.

There is nothing I would rather do on any day of the week, than the will of God. No regrets shall I have from taking His will as my own. So I want to encourage you not to waste your time in attempting to present some sort of weak argument as to why I or anyone else who is a son or daughter of the Most High God should do anything other than that which He desires for us to do. He knows what is best for us, not you my friend.

That's funny...you'd think you were replying to a post directed at you. I'm not sure how to respond to so many strawmen...those were all rhetorical questions anyway, right? The funny thing is, you get the point...kind of. If your beliefs are right, then maybe it's worthwhile. If your beliefs are wrong, it's all a waste of time. This sentence really speaks to what I was getting at though...

"There is nothing I would rather do on any day of the week, than the will of God. "

That's exactly what I was talking about...freedom. You're obligated to do the will of god...I'm not. If a slave is happy picking cotton out in the field, does that make him less of a slave? If a slave gets a comfortable life in the master's house working in the kitchen...are they more free than the beggar on the street who finds no comfort in life?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well said.

Well thanks...I tried to use examples he could relate to lol.

 

[andrew89medrano]

I think its another one of satins deceptions. In my opinion

 

[Ana the Ist]

Give us something tangible to discuss other than God does not exist and we might have something to say that is worth hearing. It is difficult to make intelligent conversation when the other person does nothing more than make cynical comments and off the cuff retorts that are meaningless.

As a retired teacher, I know that the language you use with primary kids is different to the language you use with VCE students. On here when I am talking to atheists I feel that I have to use primary school language as their ability to comprehend and their ability to articulate rational thought is just not there.

Personally I would much rather you would go away so that I can have a sensible and rational discussion with fellow believers who are not full of cynicism and sarcasm but that is not in my hands so I have to bear my cross accordingly.

Lol didn't you show up in this thread after it was already 80+ pages long? "I'd rather you go away..."

It's also funny that you think you need to dumb your vocabulary down for us when you don't know what "strawmen, framing an argument, or soft atheism" are. Looks like you need us in more threads that you participate in.

If you go back to the page before you joined the thread and read some of the posts, you'll see there was a conversation happening. Granted, most of it revolved around teaching Chiliman basic logic...but it was a conversation. You haven't added anything to this thread except insults that you've thrown at atheists.

 

[David Colin Gould]

I think its another one of satins deceptions. In my opinion

Or it could be the muslin's.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think its another one of satins deceptions. In my opinion

Is a satin deception when you think your upholstery is satin and you find out that it's really velour?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Or it could be the muslin's.

Lol you beat me to it!

 

[HitchSlap]

Is a satin deception when you think your upholstery is satin and you find out that it's really velour?

Lol

 

[Ana the Ist]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Buddhism claims it isn't a religion.

Well so do a lot of christians, right?

It's got all the familiar symptoms though.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hopefully. Then he can look up "soft atheist" and finally actually address the post of mine to which he responded.

I wasn't being patronizing either...I've got senior citizens in my family who have no idea how to use a computer. I figured if he doesn't know "strawman" or "soft atheism"...he might think "google" is a word I made up.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Timeout for a second. I interrupt this regularly scheduled tit for tat back and forth internet forum argument and bickering to give you a special news bulletin.

I love you guys.

A lot of us feel we have been wronged growing up. Indeed we have. Some of us have been molested, abused, abandoned, ridiculed, and despised. For some, the perpetrator was someone close to us, someone that should have loved and protected us. For some it was a stranger. For many of us, this happened to us while we identified as Christians. For some this is not the case.

Now some no longer identify as Christians. That is ok. I still care for you all and want you to know that at least, if nothing else, I love you.

I want to issue a call for complete transparency, as frightening as it is. If you no longer identify as a Christian because of some wrong or injustice you have received at the hand of another, then say that. If you think God is a pretty lousy guy for allowing you to be abused, then say that. If anyone is lying about why they hold or do not hold to certain beliefs, then they are hurting themselves, not the people they are lying to. I assure all of you that I am going to go to bed and rest well tonight whether everyone here is transparent or not.

So let us love one another on this forum. Surely we can all agree that we have an obligation to do so, right?

It's a trap! *best Admiral Akbar voice i can do*

That's a really sweet sentiment, anonymous. Surely though, you realize that most of us cannot be completely transparent. If I gave my real opinions of christians, christianity, religion, etc....I would be banned from this site by tomorrow morning.

There are multiple rules that keep atheists from fully expressing themselves, as well as rules which defend the beliefs of christians who aren't all that great at defending their beliefs by themselves.

In truth, I can kind of understand why. It's a forum for christians...we atheists are the guests here. I think the rules stifle the honest and free exchange of ideas between different people, cultures, beliefs...but that's not what this site is about anyway. It's primarily for christians to talk about christian stuff.

 

[jacks]

Timeout for a second. I interrupt this regularly scheduled tit for tat back and forth internet forum argument and bickering to give you a special news bulletin.

I love you guys.

A lot of us feel we have been wronged growing up. Indeed we have. Some of us have been molested, abused, abandoned, ridiculed, and despised. For some, the perpetrator was someone close to us, someone that should have loved and protected us. For some it was a stranger. For many of us, this happened to us while we identified as Christians. For some this is not the case.

Now some no longer identify as Christians. That is ok. I still care for you all and want you to know that at least, if nothing else, I love you.

I want to issue a call for complete transparency, as frightening as it is. If you no longer identify as a Christian because of some wrong or injustice you have received at the hand of another, then say that. If you think God is a pretty lousy guy for allowing you to be abused, then say that. If anyone is lying about why they hold or do not hold to certain beliefs, then they are hurting themselves, not the people they are lying to. I assure all of you that I am going to go to bed and rest well tonight whether everyone here is transparent or not.

So let us love one another on this forum. Surely we can all agree that we have an obligation to do so, right?

Well said brother, with Gods grace may we all reach this point of love and compassion. It takes spiritual maturity not to get caught up in a “gotcha” mentality. This maturity is developed through spiritual growth. An understanding that all are part of God’s spiritual creation, and therefore worthy of our compassion.

 

[ScottA]

Assuming for a moment that the world, universe, nature or however you want to say it was evidence of creation (and to be clear, I don't think it is...how is it evidence for a particular creator?

In other words, why is it evidence of the christian god and not one of the Hindu ones? Why not one of the Greek gods? Why not Allah?

Why isn't it evidence for a completely material creator? Maybe some super-advanced alien culture who creates universes and life for the fun of it?

Look...it's a jungle out there, but only one thing is true...and it is that way by design. The whole thing has been laid out there to see from the beginning, and it is written. But if you think there is not enough to believe in...then you are doing the right thing, it's not for you.

We come out in hopes that some may appreciate a hopeful word in the midst of the search, or a hand up. But the whole thing also includes a camouflage to keep the wrong elements out. Only you and God can change your destiny.

 

[ScottA]

Sounds good. Sign me up.

Say that to God (and mean it)...and you got it.

 

[ScottA]

Sorry?

Not in the least.