Hello BeeWrangler, thanks for the response and I hope you will be patient for a proper response when I get back. And it has been very restful, thanks.
I'm in no rush, I look forward to this discussion. I'm going into it with an open mind... the kids are in bed and I have a big cup of tea made, my typing fingers are loaded lol!
In the meantime I will suggest a few things to consider which are relevant to your post. I would suggest looking at the "Day of the Lord" (word search "Day of the Lord" on Strong's online concordance) as I would suggest that this speaks of judgment, rather than the Rapture (which word, while not found in the Greek has its roots in Latin which is why it is the common word used to describe this event. In 1st Thessalonians 5 we see we will not be overtaken or caught unawares by this Day (vv. 4-5). Those who are subject to this judgment will be.
I do agree 100% the day of the Lord speaks of judgement. The scriptures make it clear, for example Isaiah 13:9 says: Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. There is no question about it being judgement. But because the word "rapture" is not used in the bible, I believe the day of the Lord is also the time of the rapture....
You mentioned 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5. Here is 1 Thessalonians 5:
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
25 Brethren, pray for us.
26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Again I agree with you 100% that we are not subject to the judgement. Reading it all (to me) paints a clear picture that this is speaking of the day of the Lord, and as you said it tells us we will not be subject to the judgement or be taken unaware of it when it comes... I believe that is because we will have been raptured (I think both pre-trib and post trib will agree with that) Now look where I underlined 9-11. I see the subject is on the day of the Lord, why would it say encourage and build up one another as you are doing? I could understand if he is simply saying keep doing what your doing, but the main subject he is speaking of is the coming of the Lord, so would he not mean stick together and stay strong during the tribulation? It would be like if you are telling me that there is a storm coming, telling me about the storm and then you say "stay strong". I can only assume you mean stay strong and don't panic when the storm comes. I could be wrong of course, but if you reading the entire Thes 5 you should see what I mean, that the advice given in Thes 5 is regarding the second coming, it is advice that should be used at all times, but I believe as he is writting it he is referring to what he started speaking about, the day of the Lord.
Another point of consideration is the it is the "dead in Christ" in view in ch. 4, and specifically those known to the Thessalonians rather than the dead in general. I am assuming you are premillennial I your views so the one question to answer is "If all believers are resurrected at the Second Coming (see )...who populates the Millennial Kingdom promised in the Old Testament and the New? (see Acts 1 and Revelation 20)"
Acts 1
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Revelation 20
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
We know anyone who accepts the mark of the beast is done for, no hope. But I believe there will be people who do not accept the mark. Not all because of a strong belief in Christ, but for one reason or another. These people who do not accept the mark will likely rebel against the anti-Christ, again for one reason or another. Some of them may rebel and do good, for example helping people and even possibly Christians in one way or another. Some of them might rebel to do bad, maybe to do sick and twisted things without being tracked. I don't know, but I think there will be people other than Christians who do not accept the mark for one reason or another. Now in the above Revelations 20:12 ...the dead (nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God... if I have used Strong's Concordance correctly? tring to figure it out) were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works (way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors?) If the people who did not accept the mark but did do honest deeds, helping others to escape the anti-Christ... could they populate the millennial kingdom? I am thinking outloud, I will have to get back to this question.
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