The Order of Salavation

[ozso]

The "Brentism" remark shook me too as I don't see how you, MMX, and myself are that far apart. Peace.

Despite how much of an independent student of the Bible Doug Brents feels he is, he's espousing textbook Lordship Salvation. But I agree that most sincere Christians are not that far apart regarding this.

I could just as easily challenge D Taylor's Free Grace position, but I've always found the Lordship Salvation position more problematic.

 

[John Mullally]

Despite how much of an independent student of the Bible Doug Brents feels he is, he's espousing textbook Lordship Salvation. But I agree that most sincere Christians are not that far apart regarding this.

I could just as easily challenge D Taylor's Free Grace position, but I've always found the Lordship Salvation position more problematic.

As one who does not subscribe to "Lordship salivation", shouldn't the saved want to make Him Lord? I don't believe anyone is saved by intellectual assent (James 2:19).

 

[Doug Brents]

But that still begs the question of how much needs to be done to become and stay saved.

From what I have found in my study of salvation, there are only three things Scripture says lead to salvation: repentance, confession of Jesus’ as Lord, and baptism (in water). These are the only actions that I have found that lead to salvation. All other actions flow out from our appreciation and love for Jesus in response to His saving us.

And, as far as I can tell, it is not about how much you do, but the direction in which you are headed when we die. If, after we are baptized into Christ (saved), we are working to continually improve, become more like Jesus, walk in the Light, etc. then we will be saved. But if we are living in unrepentant sin, not seeking to walk as Jesus did, not bringing glory to His name, etc. then we can (I believe) lose our salvation. Where is the dividing line? Only God knows! But our mission should not be to just squeak in under the wire. We should strive to be as close to Jesus, and as far from that cutoff point as possible.

 

[Dah'veed]

And, as far as I can tell, it is not about how much you do, but the direction in which you are headed when we die. If, after we are baptized into Christ (saved), we are working to continually improve, become more like Jesus, walk in the Light, etc. then we will be saved. But if we are living in unrepentant sin, not seeking to walk as Jesus did, not bringing glory to His name, etc. then we can (I believe) lose our salvation. Where is the dividing line?

For it stands in Scripture: See, I lay a Stone in Zion,
Those who believe will never be disappointed.

But for the unbelieving,

The stone that the builders rejected— has become the cornerstone. 1 Peter 2:3-10

This Jesus is the stone rejected by you builders, which has become the cornerstone.
There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved. Acts 4:11-12

 

[ozso]

As one who does not subscribe to "Lordship salivation", shouldn't the saved want to make Him Lord? I don't believe anyone is saved by intellectual assent (James 2:19).

James 2:19 gets quoted a lot, but it says demons also believe there is one God, not that demons believe they are saved through the blood of Christ.

Matthew 7:21 gets quoted a lot too. But ironically it's about those who did lots of amazing good works being denied - in essence that good works don't get you into heaven.

What do you and Doug mean by "intellectual assent"?

 

[John Mullally]

James 2:19 gets quoted a lot, but it says demons also believe there is one God, not that demons believe they are saved through the blood of Christ.

Matthew 7:21 gets quoted a lot too. But ironically it's about those who did lots of amazing good works being denied - in essence that good works don't get you into heaven.

What do you and Doug mean by "intellectual assent"?

Hi MMXX,

Your handle sounds like a Wrestler name and your depicted skull cap fits accordingly - ha, ha. Ever watch the HodgeTwins! I have read many of your thoughtful posts, You are wise in that you did not give your full name - like myself and Brent!

I don't think I have interchanged with you in the past. Intellectual assent is passive and does not result in lasting life change - read the parable of the sower. I like to go back to Acts 2 where Peter preached the first altar call. Those who chose to be baptized made a costly decision as they lost family, friends, jobs, and perhaps life. It is so easy for us in America - if you are here and a believer take advantage of the opportunities for the kingdom's sake.

Peace

 

[Doug Brents]

James 2:19 gets quoted a lot, but it says demons also believe there is one God, not that demons believe they are saved through the blood of Christ.

Matthew 7:21 gets quoted a lot too. But ironically it's about those who did lots of amazing good works being denied - in essence that good works don't get you into heaven.

What do you and Doug mean by "intellectual assent"?

Intellectual assent is a purely mental exercise of accepting something as truth without taking action based on that assent. IE: I acknowledge that the chair will support my weight and give me rest. But without sitting in the chair I receive no rest because I am still standing on my feet. Faith, on the other hand, takes that intellectual assent and adds action. Faith produces the actions of trust that place my weight firmly in the chair accepting the risk that the chair may break under my weight.

 

[d taylor]

"intellectual assent"?

Search Results for “intellectual assent” – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[ozso]

Hi MMXX,

Your handle sounds like a Wrestler name and your depicted skull cap fits accordingly - ha, ha.

Nah it's just the year I joined 2020 in Roman numerals. I thought the cap and hoodie make me look more like monk hee hee.

I have read many of your thoughtful posts, but I don't think I have interchanged with you. Intellectual assent is passive and does not result in lasting life change - read the parable of the sower. I like to go back to Acts 2 where Peter preached the first altar call. Those who chose to be baptized made a costly decision as they lost family, friends, jobs, and perhaps life. It is so easy for us in America - if you are here and a believer take advantage of the opportunities for the kingdom's sake.

Peace

Isn't there a difference though between life change and justification? Justification vs sanctification?

 

[ozso]

Intellectual assent is a purely mental exercise of accepting something as truth without taking action based on that assent. IE: I acknowledge that the chair will support my weight and give me rest. But without sitting in the chair i receive no rest becoming I am still standing on my feet. Faith, on the other hand, takes that intellectual assent and adds action. Faith produces the actions of trust that place my weight firmly in the chair accepting the risk that the chair may break under my weight.

Isn't that knowing vs believing though? For example lots of atheists know the gospel quite well, but they don't believe in it. There's a saying that we need to have trust in our salvation though the finished work of Christ on our behalf, the way a skydiver has trust in his parachute to save him.

 

[ozso]

Search Results for “intellectual assent” – Grace Evangelical Society

Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin, Charlie Bing, Charles Ryrie etc, they all come up with good and convincing points.

What's confusing to me is that John MacArthur, who's probably the most famous proponent of Lordship Salvation, also firmly and convincingly teaches that you can not lose your salvation.

Someone who was pretty involved with MacArthur's church told me that when MacArthur started teaching Lordship Salvation, someone in the church wrote him a letter with lots of scripture against it. And MacArthur's reply was "I know, but I don't want Christians thinking they can do whatever they want". Now whether that really happened or not, that still seems to be the crux of it.

 

[Doug Brents]

Isn't that knowing vs believing though? For example lots of atheists know the gospel quite well, but they don't believe in it. There's a saying that we need to have trust in our salvation though the finished work of Christ on our behalf, the way a skydiver has trust in his parachute to save him.

That is exactly what I am talking about. What the Bible calls belief is not just mental assent. Mental assent is what the atheist has. He knows the Bible, but he does nothing about it because he doesn’t trust it. He doesn’t jump out of the airplane. The one who truly believes jumps, because he trusts, he has faith. It is the action that completes the faith (James 2:26).

 

[d taylor]

Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin, Charlie Being, Charles Ryrie etc, they all come up with good and convincing points.

What's confusing to me is that John MacArthur, who's probably the most famous proponent of Lordship Salvation, also firmly and convincingly teaches that you can not lose your salvation.

Someone who was pretty involved with MacArthur's church told me that when MacArthur started teaching Lordship Salvation, someone in the church wrote him a letter with lots of scripture against it. And MacArthur's reply was "I know, but I don't want Christians thinking they can do whatever they want". Now whether that really happened or not, that still seems to be the crux of it.

I think he states, when one can not lose their salvation, for an example. Say one who is a member of his church. Then this person falls away from MacArthurs church, and never again goes to church any where. Then he would take a, "this person was never really saved" position. Similar to what reform/calvinist teach.

Zane Hodges and MacArthur had a few (i think) exchanging of emails or letters before Zane died, debating the issue freegrace vs Lordship

 

[ozso]

That is exactly what I am talking about. What the Bible calls belief is not just mental assent. Mental assent is what the atheist has. He knows the Bible, but he does nothing about it because he doesn’t trust it. He doesn’t jump out of the airplane. The one who truly believes jumps, because he trusts, he has faith. It is the action that completes the faith (James 2:26).

Right, but after he makes that jump, it's all up to the parachute after that.

(It could be added that the skydiver also has to pull the ripcord, but from what I understand at a certain point the parachute will automatically open, if say the skydiver happens to lose consciousness).

 

[ozso]

I think he states, when one can not lose their salvation, for an example. Say one who is a member of his church. Then this person falls away from MacArthurs church, and never again goes to church any where. Then he would take a, "this person was never really saved" position. Similar to what reform/calvinist teach.

From what I've heard him say, even if someone chooses to stop believing, they can't lose their salvation. No one and nothing can take it away from you and you can't take it away from yourself. But yes, there's also the catch that if someone stops believing, they probably weren't really saved.

Zane Hodges and MacArthur had a few (i think) exchanging of emails or letters before Zane died, debating the issue freegrace vs Lordship

Yes, and with Charles Ryrie too. Hodges and Ryrie also countered MacArthur's books on the subject with books of their own.

 

[Doug Brents]

Right, but after he makes that jump, it's all up to the parachute after that.

Very true. Just as it is God who saves us, not the actions we take. But, just as the parachuter who, until he pulls the cord, the chute does him no good; so too, until we are baptized, the blood of Jesus does us no good. For it is in baptism that we connect with the blood of Christ and are united with Him in His death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The Bible tells us that we are called to freedom, so the call of the Holy Spirit, is one that has removed a law-based judgment from us.

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

However, the Bible also says that Jesus was sent not just to be a sacrifice for our sins but to also turn us away from our iniquities.

Act 3:26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

In order for God to maintain a permanent home with us we must be willing to leave those iniquities behind.

John 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

This does not mean we will ever be sinless, but rather our direction should be toward God and His ways.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

We should not be excusing our sins, but moving away from them.

1Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

 

[ozso]

Very true. Just as it is God who saves us, not the actions we take. But, just as the parachuter who, until he pulls the cord, the chute does him no good; so too, until we are baptized, the blood of Jesus does us no good. For it is in baptism that we connect with the blood of Christ and are united with Him in His death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14).

So salvation doesn't go into effect until you're baptised? Like if a person becomes saved, and they're scheduled to be baptized three days later, but they get hit by a bus before then, they go to hell?

BTW, from what I understand, parachutes automatically deploy after a certain amount of time (like 5 minutes) even if you don't pull the ripcord. Like if you pass out before you pull the ripcord, the chute is going to deploy anyways.

 

[John Mullally]

Isn't there a difference though between life change and justification? Justification vs sanctification?

Interestingly I do not hear those terms used at my church (Cottonwood Church | Bringing A Living Jesus To A Dying World) which is more tuned to servicing peoples immediate needs as opposed to teaching abstract Biblical concepts. I view justification as accompanying salvation.

Being born-again only transforms our spirit. Whereas sanctification affects our soul (mind, will, and emotions). We participate in sanctification as we obey, resist temptation, and renew our minds to the word of God.

 

[John Mullally]

So salvation doesn't go into effect until you're baptised? Like if a person becomes saved, and they're scheduled to be baptized three days later, but they get hit by a bus before then, they go to hell?

BTW, from what I understand, parachutes automatically deploy after a certain amount of time (like 5 minutes) even if you don't pull the ripcord. Like if you pass out before you pull the ripcord, the chute is going to deploy anyways.

I believe our public confession is of utmost importance - that can occur without water - but why resist the words of Jesus by avoiding baptism. I believe if the thief on the cross did not speak to Jesus, he would be in hell - our words cement our beliefs. Although I was baptized as an infant, I was convicted to be re-baptized as an adult and give a speech at that event. Shalom