The Order of Salavation

[FutureAndAHope]

John 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever …

John 14:2-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

These verses regarding receiving the Holy Spirit, show us that obedience to God is very important in His eyes. Although it could be said that the primary work is faith in Jesus (John 6:29), His ability to forgive us our sins, it does not stop there. The scripture strongly shows the need for repentance, turning away from, sin. The order of receiving the Holy Spirit is:

1. We receive God’s commands
2. If we keep them, God will love us
3. God will manifest Himself to those He loves
   

The Early Church Father Justin Martyr (110-165 A.D.) in his First Apology states:
Chap. X. — How God Is to Be Served.

… if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him.

Also Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew.
Chap. LXXXVIII. — Christ Has Not Received the Holy Spirit on Account of Poverty.

For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.

 

[d taylor]

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If your salvation you are speaking of, is the Eternal Life salvation an unbeliever receives from God at the moment of faith in Jesus The Messiah, Then there are no steps, at the very moment of faith, a person (unbeliever) crosses over from death to life and becomes a permanent born again child of God.

The only steps a born again child does, is steps in growing in maturity in their faith and walk with God. This a discipleship area and not a Eternal Life salvation area.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

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If your salvation you are speaking of, is the Eternal Life salvation an unbeliever receives from God at the moment of faith in Jesus The Messiah, Then there are no steps, at the very moment of faith, a person (unbeliever) crosses over from death to life and becomes a permanent born again child of God.

The only steps a born again child does, is steps in growing in maturity in their faith and walk with God. This a discipleship area and not a Eternal Life salvation area.

Jesus's words suggest that "faith" is more than just mental assent to a fact with no repentance, saving faith includes a desire to go God's way.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Jesus's words suggest that "faith" is more than just mental assent to a fact with no repentance, saving faith includes a desire to go God's way.

How much faith? How many works, how often, and of what kind, to earn and maintain salvation?

 

[d taylor]

Jesus's words suggest that "faith" is more than just mental assent to a fact with no repentance, saving faith includes a desire to go God's way.

That is not what John 5:24 states along with many more verses. John 5:24 states when one believes they cross over from death to life. The verse does not say a person will eventually cross over from death to life, if they live a life in obedience to God, etc...

What about this verse one drinks and then they shall never thirst.
but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus's words suggest that "faith" is more than just mental assent to a fact with no repentance, saving faith includes a desire to go God's way.

This is absolutely correct. Without action there is no faith. You can “believe” all day long that the chair will hold you, but you do not receive rest until you exhibit faith and put your butt in the chair and let it support your weight.

How much faith? How many works, how often, and of what kind, to earn and maintain salvation?

The actions that Scripture says LEAD TOWARD salvation (as opposed to those that it says FLOW FROM salvation).

Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, and Acts 2:38 all state actions of faith that LEAD TO salvation (repentance from sin, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism. Repentance is a continual action (similar to how pilots navigate to their destination) (Luke 17:3-4). Confession of Jesus’ name must be verbal and public(Rom 10:9-10, Matt 10:32). And baptism must be in water and in Jesus’ name (Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:20-21, Acts 8:36).

 

[Doug Brents]

That is not what John 5:24 states along with many more verses. John 5:24 states when one believes they cross over from death to life. The verse does not say a person will eventually cross over from death to life, if they live a life in obedience to God, etc...

What about this verse one drinks and then they shall never thirst.
but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

If you look at the Greek, the word translated “belief/believe) in almost all places in the New Testament is the word pistis which means faith. This is not then simple mental assent, just as FutureAndAHope said, but an active, participatory faith that is demanded by God.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The actions that Scripture says LEAD TOWARD salvation (as opposed to those that it says FLOW FROM salvation).

Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, and Acts 2:38 all state actions of faith that LEAD TO salvation (repentance from sin, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism. Repentance is a continual action (similar to how pilots navigate to their destination) (Luke 17:3-4). Confession of Jesus’ name must be verbal and public(Rom 10:9-10, Matt 10:32). And baptism must be in water and in Jesus’ name (Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:20-21, Acts 8:36).

That sounds pretty much like the Catholic and Orthodox view that we are not saved, but are being saved. Theosis.

 

[d taylor]

If you look at the Greek, the word translated “belief/believe) in almost all places in the New Testament is the word pistis which means faith. This is not then simple mental assent, just as FutureAndAHope said, but an active, participatory faith that is demanded by God.

Well you were wrong about this, about a year and a half back and then about 5 to 7 months back . When we debated this and now you are still wrong about this. I wish people on this site would have better memory of past debates, so i do not have to continue to hash over past debates again and again and again.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

That is not what John 5:24 states along with many more verses. John 5:24 states when one believes they cross over from death to life. The verse does not say a person will eventually cross over from death to life, if they live a life in obedience to God, etc...

What about this verse one drinks and then they shall never thirst.
but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

What I am suggesting is the Christain walk is one characterized by obedience or oneness with God's ways. Sure we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe, but this too comes with "loving" God's promise of salvation, seeing it, and agreeing with it. But after we are saved, by putting God's desires above our own sinful ones, there is still a need for perseverance.

Heb 10:36-38 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME AND WILL NOT TARRY. NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; BUT IF ANYONE DRAWS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

How much faith? How many works, how often, and of what kind, to earn and maintain salvation?

It is neither in my opinion purely faith, nor works. Roughly put it is a limited love/respect of God's ways, why do I say limited?

1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

We see the cross, the gift of forgiveness, we desire it, we see God's grace, and we have a human response of love/respect for God's gift.

It is a thankfulness for God's gift, that helps us maintain salvation, and spurs us on to good works.

A person who has no love or respect for God, will not move away from sin.

Although we are not justified by our deeds, if we don't have deeds, we are not His.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God,

The following verse shows that without a desire to move away from sin, salvation is void.

1Jn 3:6-7 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

 

[d taylor]

What I am suggesting is the Christain walk is one characterized by obedience or oneness with God's ways. Sure we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe, but this too comes with "loving" God's promise of salvation, seeing it, and agreeing with it. But after we are saved, by putting God's desires above our own sinful ones, there is still a need for perseverance.

Heb 10:36-38 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME AND WILL NOT TARRY. NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; BUT IF ANYONE DRAWS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM."

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Well this thread you started, is confusing in what and who it is addressing. So i will try and come to a better understanding of who your are addressing.


1. Are you addressing unbelievers and what must they do to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and become a born again child of God.

2 Or are you addressing born again children of God and what they must do to remain faithful and receive their reward for being a faithful follower of Jesus. For works they did by the power of God, that will be judged at the judgment seat of the Messiah (Bema)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

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Well this thread you started, is confusing in what and who it is addressing. So i will try and come to a better understanding of who your are addressing.


1. Are you addressing unbelievers and what must they do to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and become a born again child of God.

2 Or are you addressing born again children of God and what they must do to remain faithful and receive their reward for being a faithful follower of Jesus. For works they did by the power of God, that will be judged at the judgment seat of the Messiah (Bema)

Both. For receiving the Holy Spirit is not just an event, the Holy Spirit is the person of God. When Jesus says, one must be obedient to God for God to love that person, and make a home with them. It is talking about a linear path, a linear path of daily accepting God, and living righteously. God will only make a permanent home with the person who has a) accepted Christ, and b) lived righteously.

To say one does not need to live righteously is wrong.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God

As Jesus said "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;" It is linear starting at the point that the cross is shown to us leading every day to our deaths.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

1. Are you addressing unbelievers and what must they do to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and become a born again child of God.

To the unbeliever, the statement addresses their need to be willing to lay down their sins, and start a walk with God. At which point "in hope" God grants them the Holy Spirit.

2 Or are you addressing born again children of God and what they must do to remain faithful and receive their reward for being a faithful follower of Jesus. For works they did by the power of God, that will be judged at the judgment seat of the Messiah (Bema)

The statement further shows in order for God to make a permanent home with the person they must persevere in righteousness. i.e. they should no longer commit adultery, theft, murder, etc. They should live:

Heb 12:28-29 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The way I see perseverance is a little like a boat (supported by faith) floating on the sea. And sin is like a heavy weight that when we sin is placed in the boat. When we don't remove the sin it sits in the boat adding extra weight. If we take on too much sin, we will eventually sink the boat and "be eternally lost", our faith will be ruined.

2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

The bible describes it as sin adding hardness, and blindness, to us.

Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[d taylor]

Both. For receiving the Holy Spirit is not just an event, the Holy Spirit is the person of God. When Jesus says, one must be obedient to God for God to love that person, and make a home with them. It is talking about a linear path, a linear path of daily accepting God, and living righteously. God will only make a permanent home with the person who has a) accepted Christ, and b) lived righteously.

To say one does not need to live righteously is wrong.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God

As Jesus said "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;" It is linear starting at the point that the cross is shown to us leading every day to our deaths.

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That is a perfect example of a gospel of doubt and confusion and is a works based system. Sadly that is the majority of what christianity believes. No wonder there are people of this site (and i am sure other places too) all the time wondering what to do.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

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That is a perfect example of a gospel of doubt and confusion and is a works based system. Sadly that is the majority of what christianity believes. No wonder there are people of this site (and i am sure other places too) all the time wondering what to do.

Not at all. I am justified by faith in Jesus's death and resurrection, I don't have to doubt my salvation, but I do need to daily live my life in reverence for God, not giving in to the flesh.

A gospel that says it is all faith, and we can just let the flesh in as often as we like, is not the gospel at all.

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

 

[AbbaLove]

1. Are you addressing unbelievers and what must they do to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and become a born again child of God.​

2 Or are you addressing born again children of God and what they must do to remain faithful and receive their reward for being a faithful follower of Jesus. For works they did by the power of God, that will be judged at the judgment seat of the Messiah (Bema)

Just for clarificaton the Judgement Seat Of the Lord Christ Jesus is not the Great White Throne Judgment.

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11). Those born again children of God were justified after they were sanctified​

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that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, (ESV)​

that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour, (YLT)​

that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, (NIV)​

That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; (KJV)​

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” (John 5:14)​

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:11)​

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Paul as an Apostleof Christ told the Corinthian Church to stop sinning (1 Corinthians 15:34) ...​

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awake up, as is right, and sin not; for certain have an ignorance of God; for shame to you I say it. (YLT)​

Sober up morally and stop sinning, for some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame. (NASB)​

Be sensible and stop sinning. You should be embarrassed that some people still don't know about God. (CEV)​

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. (KJV)​

Think carefully about what is right, and stop sinning. For to your shame I say that some of you don’t know God at all. (NLT)​

 

[AbbaLove]

I am justified by faith in Jesus's death and resurrection, I don't have to doubt my salvation, but I do need to daily live my life in reverence for God, not giving in to the flesh.

You are only justified at the Judgement Seat Of Christ the Messiah ... after you have lived a sanctified life abiding in Him with the indwelling presence of HIS Spirit.

 

[coorilose]

We are saved for believing but we are still in danger of punishment: Hebrews 12:4-7 ESV