The order of revelation; Tradition comes first, later comes inspiration and the making of scripture.

FenderTL5

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This looks like the sort of thing Bart Ehrman uses to disprove the validity of the New Testament.
Almost every "study Bible" in existence has a preface to each of the books. Most have a supposed date of authorship.If you have one, take a look, write them down.. compare.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Most place the writing of Galatians very early. First or second in almost every one. It begins:
Galatians 1
New International Version

1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers and sisters[a] with me, To the churches in Galatia:

He was writing to churches. There were churches before there were letters to churches.
You do understand how a timeline works?
What part of "The events taking place in the epistles were in the early days of the church." don't you understand to ask me that question?
 
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Ceallaigh

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Almost every "study Bible" in existence has a preface to each of the books. Most have a supposed date of authorship.If you have one, take a look, write them down.. compare.
The issue is what's being claimed regarding it. Atheist scholars like Bart Ehrman and Muslim scholars use such info to discredit scripture. And I'm sure what ARBITER01 meant is that there's nothing written about the beginning of and the earliest days of the church that predates what the apostles wrote.

 
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Ceallaigh

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The premise of this thread is that the tradition of the church predates when the gospels and epistles were written, and therefore tradition is ahead of scripture. But what are the 1st century oral teachings and accounts that aren't found in scripture, that the Catholic church is going by?

Can anyone name a 1st century tradition that was established by the apostles that is not found in their gospels and epistles?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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There is nothing earlier in Christianity than the writings of our Apostles, nothing.
The events, including all of the Lord's teaching, came before the Apostles wrote a word.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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tradition is inspired because it preceded commitment to writing
Sacred Tradition is not inspired, inspiration is a gift associated with the holy scriptures alone. Sacred Tradition is public revelation from God, it is true, and hence it is infallible, but it is not inspired into writing as are the holy scriptures.
 
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Fervent

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Sacred Tradition is not inspired, inspiration is a gift associated with the holy scriptures alone. Sacred Tradition is public revelation from God, it is true, and hence it is infallible, but it is not inspired into writing as are the holy scriptures.
You do realize it's bad form to selectively edit a complete statement and respond to a snippet that doesn't even express the full thought of the sentence, right?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The events of the gospels predate the formation of the church. The events written in Acts happened at the beginning of the church. The events taking place in the epistles were in the early days of the church. The only way to know that celebrating the Eucharist, baptizing etc was taking place, is because that's what scripture says.
Since the events predate the record of them in writing it follows with infallible logic that people did the things written about before the writing took place. So, we know that Jesus lived and taught before the gospel were recorded. We also know that the events recorded in The Acts of the Apostles took place before the book was written, consequently we know that many churches were established before the book of Acts was written. And because churches existed, we know that the handed down their practises and spoke about their beliefs before these were documented in letters, books, or any other writings. Thus, your claim that, "The only way to know that celebrating the Eucharist, baptizing etc was taking place, is because that's what scripture says", is in error because we know of the activities by means of handing them down by example before any scripture describing them or explaining them or even naming them was written.
 
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ARBITER01

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The premise of this thread is that the tradition of the church predates when the gospels and epistles were written, and therefore tradition is ahead of scripture. But what are the 1st century oral teachings and accounts that aren't found in scripture, that the Catholic church is going by?

Can anyone name a 1st century tradition that was established by the apostles that is not found in their gospels and epistles?
They won't be able to.

This happens on here every so often over the years I've been here. One of the more traditional type churches wants to promote their building as being the earliest, and their traditions they made up are somehow earlier and more trustworthy than scripture itself in their mind.

To any sort of scholar as well as the lay person in the body, this is ridiculous and quite laughable.
 
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Fervent

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It's brevity, nothing more and nothing less.
Considering you chose to focus on something of your own invention that in no way addressed my argument or reflected what had been said, there's no brevity about it.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The premise of this thread is that the tradition of the church predates when the gospels and epistles were written, and therefore tradition is ahead of scripture. But what are the 1st century oral teachings and accounts that aren't found in scripture, that the Catholic church is going by?
That's easy to answer; it is the Apostolic tradition that were handed down, some being eventually written, that you have complained about in so many of your posts in this thread and in others. You have mentioned the perpetual virginity of Blessed Mary, the immaculate conception of Blessed Mary, the divine motherhood of Blessed Mary has been complained about by others, so it too is in this short list, and last of all, the assumption of Blessed Mary bodily into heaven - a little like Enoch and Elijah.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Considering you chose to focus on something of your own invention that in no way addressed my argument or reflected what had been said, there's no brevity about it.
You would do better to answer the reply than to complain about the existence of it.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Since the events predate the record of them in writing it follows with infallible logic that people did the things written about before the writing took place. So, we know that Jesus lived and taught before the gospel were recorded. We also know that the events recorded in The Acts of the Apostles took place before the book was written, consequently we know that many churches were established before the book of Acts was written. And because churches existed, we know that the handed down their practises and spoke about their beliefs before these were documented in letters, books, or any other writings. Thus, your claim that, "The only way to know that celebrating the Eucharist, baptizing etc was taking place, is because that's what scripture says", is in error because we know of the activities by means of handing them down by example before any scripture describing them or explaining them or even naming them was written.
The problem is that you can not cite what's been handed down by the apostles, by word of mouth only, sans scripture.

Name what existed in church tradition before scripture was written, that is not found in scripture. Please back up the claim.
 
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Ceallaigh

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That's easy to answer; it is the Apostolic tradition that were handed down, some being eventually written, that you have complained about in so many of your posts in this thread and in others. You have mentioned the perpetual virginity of Blessed Mary, the immaculate conception of Blessed Mary, the divine motherhood of Blessed Mary has been complained about by others, so it too is in this short list, and last of all, the assumption of Blessed Mary bodily into heaven - a little like Enoch and Elijah.
But you can not cite any evidence that those traditional views were established by the Apostles. You can claim it, but you can't provide any evidence for it because it doesn't exist. The nearest evidence you have available is not from the time of the Apostles, but rather from long afterwards.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The problem is that you can not cite
That is not a problem; I make no claim that citations are possible because many sacred traditions are not written and citation requires writing.
 
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Fervent

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