The order of fossils in the geological column

[lasthero]

It would flood the continents in a world wide flood. And leave evidence like a long trench like scar under the ocean. (Mid Atlantic Ridge?)

No.

What do you think the Mid Atlantic Ridge is, exactly? It's not just some scar.

 

[Loudmouth]

So what if most of the entire sea floor did this? (runaway subduction) It would flood the continents in a world wide flood. And leave evidence like a long trench like scar under the ocean. (Mid Atlantic Ridge?)

I think you have just answered all the many questions I have heard of "Where did all the water for the flood come from?"

It would produce a massive world wide flood deposit that could not be missed. No such flood deposit exists.

 

[Queller]

This is how I envision Noah's flood coming in; like an ocean tide. No surge, no tsunami.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/z_zbgBC-vLc/mqdefault.jpg.

That's great that you envision that to be the way the flood happens. Unfortunately it still ignores everything the Bible says about the circumstances of the Flood and ignores everything that physics says about the mechanisms you propose to cause the Flood to happen.

For example, you ignore the direct, observed evidence I gave of what happened when a small section of two continental plates moved together ~20ft horizontally and 10ft vertically. As a result 1600+ people in the vicinity died and 24 hours later a 35ft high tsunami hit Japan, 10,000 miles away and killed another 138.

Multiply that by a factor of about a million and you can see that the Flood model you are proposing is impossible.

 

[Queller]

Sure. The 'windows of heaven' being 'opened' is poetic language for rain falling from the sky.

I don't really see a window being opened into the bottom of a world spanning water tank as resulting in a gentle rain but OK. So to what is the poetic language "fountains of the great deep bursting open" actually referring?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So what if most of the entire sea floor did this? (runaway subduction) It would flood the continents in a world wide flood. And leave evidence like a long trench like scar under the ocean. (Mid Atlantic Ridge?)

I think you have just answered all the many questions I have heard of "Where did all the water for the flood come from?"

If a large enough area of the sea floors were raised the ocean plates would probably rise as a single 'slab' with no further cracking or separating involved. Such a large area would be somewhat flexible as well.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't really see a window being opened into the bottom of a world spanning water tank as resulting in a gentle rain but OK.

Science has shown that only a limited amount of water can be held in the atmosphere, so the event must be understood differently from the poetic account.

So to what is the poetic language "fountains of the great deep bursting open" actually referring?

Once again, poetic language in the absence of the exact words needed to describe the event. I take "fountain's of the great deep" to mean both the water and the structure (the sea beds) that contain the water. "Broken up" to mean 'moved from their place'. Water cannot be 'broken up' therefore I take this to mean the 'containment vessel'; the sea beds.

 

[dad]

There is no indication that Noah preached that a flood was coming if folks didn't repent.

This seems to suggest otherwise..


1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

What was God waiting for if not to give some a chance to repent?

It is unlikely that they knew the true purpose of the ark. The story has them conducting 'business as usual' right up to the time the flood came.

The same can be said of men in the last days. Just because men do not include God and what He said will happen in their plans does not mean they never heard. They simply reject it.

The forty days of rain might have obscured the main flood as well. Those nearer to the sea would not have time or presence of mind to send a warning to those on higher ground. I'm guessing that most people lived near the sea, as they still do. Anyway, the story has the ark surviving both the people and the flood.

Right, not like God was going to let them destroy the ark. What fits better is that it was a sudden violent event, where people were more or less swept off their feet, rather than ran around for weeks in some not so scary rain.

The business as usual ended abruptly soon as the flood came.



Lu 17:27 -They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Matt 24: 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The word took means this in Greek..

"

to raise up, elevate, lift up
to raise from the ground, take up: stones
to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
to draw up: a fish
to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
to bear away what has been raised, carry off
to move from its place
to take off or away what is attached to anything
to remove
to carry off, carry away with one
to appropriate what is taken
to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
to take and apply to any use
to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
cause to cease"

New Testament Greek - StudyLight.org

 

[Loudmouth]

Science has shown that only a limited amount of water can be held in the atmosphere, so the event must be understood differently from the poetic account.



Once again, poetic language in the absence of the exact words needed to describe the event. I take "fountain's of the great deep" to mean both the water and the structure (the sea beds) that contain the water. "Broken up" to mean 'moved from their place'. Water cannot be 'broken up' therefore I take this to mean the 'containment vessel'; the sea beds.

Which geologic features evidence these events, and why?

 

[Loudmouth]

If a large enough area of the sea floors were raised the ocean plates would probably rise as a single 'slab' with no further cracking or separating involved. Such a large area would be somewhat flexible as well.

Evidence?

 

[dad]

Science has shown that only a limited amount of water can be held in the atmosphere, so the event must be understood differently from the poetic account.

Not if the windows of heaven were portals to another part of space where water was, sort of like what we might call a wormhole.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's great that you envision that to be the way the flood happens. Unfortunately it still ignores everything the Bible says about the circumstances of the Flood and ignores everything that physics says about the mechanisms you propose to cause the Flood to happen.

For example, you ignore the direct, observed evidence I gave of what happened when a small section of two continental plates moved together ~20ft horizontally and 10ft vertically. As a result 1600+ people in the vicinity died and 24 hours later a 35ft high tsunami hit Japan, 10,000 miles away and killed another 138.

Multiply that by a factor of about a million and you can see that the Flood model you are proposing is impossible.

Not at all. A gradual rise in the sea floor over a large area would produce a tide-like flood, not a tsunami. As the water flows onto the land the land begins to sink under the weight. The movement of the molten mantle outward also aids in raising the sea floor spilling yet more water onto the land; enough to cover the mountains of Ararat.

 

[Loudmouth]

Not at all. A gradual rise in the sea floor over a large area would produce a tide-like flood, not a tsunami.

Baloney. The more sea floor you move, the more massive and destructive the flooding. What you are calling for would be orders of magnitude more destructive than the recent tsunamis on record. This would produce a massive flood deposit of unconsolidated sediments the world over. It would be completely impossible to miss. It isn't there.

As the water flows onto the land the land begins to sink under the weight. The movement of the molten mantle outward also aids in raising the sea floor spilling yet more water onto the land; enough to cover the mountains of Ararat.

Enough to produce a massive, world wide flood deposit . . . that isn't there.

 

[Loudmouth]

Not if the windows of heaven were portals to another part of space where water was, sort of like what we might call a wormhole.

I'm guessing you were a big fan of the recent changes to drug laws in Colorado.

 

[dad]

I'm guessing you were a big fan of the recent changes to drug laws in Colorado.

If that is the pot legalization thing, I don't have a strong opinion about it. I know many people who indulge in that. I used to also for years. I found it affected memory, and was very very hard to quit. I do not recommend it at all. But I can't really cast the first stone either. One thing that kind of tilts me against the whole movement is that Soros supports it! That sets off alarm bells.

 

[Queller]

Science has shown that only a limited amount of water can be held in the atmosphere, so the event must be understood differently from the poetic account.

Science has also shown that there is no evidence whatsoever for a Global Flood but you still seem ok with that idea.

And let's not forget that Genesis 8: states in part "floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained". This indicates that the windows of heaven (floodgates of the sky) and the rain were two different events. More poetic interpretation required?

Once again, poetic language in the absence of the exact words needed to describe the event. I take "fountain's of the great deep" to mean both the water and the structure (the sea beds) that contain the water. "Broken up" to mean 'moved from their place'. Water cannot be 'broken up' therefore I take this to mean the 'containment vessel'; the sea beds.

OK, if all of this can be explained away through poetic license, why do we have to take the "global" part of the Flood story as literal? Why couldn't that just be poetic license and the author of Genesis really meant this was just a local flood?

 

[Queller]

Not at all. A gradual rise in the sea floor over a large area would produce a tide-like flood, not a tsunami.

I keep trying to get you to understand that for the sea floor to rise far enough to spill all the ocean water onto the continents, AND then sink back down again to give the water somewhere to go at the end of the flood, is not going to be a gentle/gradual rise and fall. For the Challenger Deep area to get to that point, it will have to rise at a rate of 240 feet PER DAY. Go outside and find the biggest mountain you can and imagine that mountain growing at 240 feet per day. That is not going to be a slow gradual rise.

Gradual to the continental plates is 2-3 cm per year. 240 feet per day is not gradual, it is a cataclysm.

As the water flows onto the land the land begins to sink under the weight. The movement of the molten mantle outward also aids in raising the sea floor spilling yet more water onto the land; enough to cover the mountains of Ararat.

For the third time now, there isn't enough water on the planet to cover the mountains of Ararat. If the earth was perfectly smooth, there is only enough water to raise the sea level ~8,600 feet. Mt Ararat itself is nearly twice that tall and many other mountains in the area are taller than that as well.

 

[janxharris]

The problem is that your model ignores both the Bible's description of the Flood and the scientific evidence that we see.

For example, 40 days of gentle, purposeful rain (not quite sure what qualifies as "purposeful" rain) would not be anywhere near enough to flood the planet. Especially if, as you seem to be claiming, that it wasn't raining everywhere on the planet at the same time ("it took forty days for the main floodwater to reach and float the ark").

Depending on which mountains you need covered in the "mountains of Ararat" you still need 10s of millions of cubic miles of water. Mt Ararat itself is 16,000+ feet high. Even a global flood high enough to cover that but not cover Everest, would still leave a massive high water mark on Everest (and every other mountain taller than Ararat around the world). There isn't any such mark.

First, the continents are not equivalent to a river basin no matter how big the river.

Second, do you have any sources showing the Amazon River BASIN sinks under the weight of seasonal floods? I can only find articles that talk about how the water level rises with seasonal runoff.

Third, The largest earthquake in recorded history in 1960 was a 9.5 in Chile. Two continental plates moved against each other a total of 22ft horizontally and about 10 feet vertically. This resulted in 1600+ dead in Chile, 61 deaths in Hawaii, and 138 dead in Honshu, Japan 10,000 miles away. The massive movement of the continental plates is not a gentle event and would therefore NOT result in gentle waves inundating a flood plain after 40 days of rain. Just as a comparison, the tsunami from the Chile earthquake I mentioned reached Japan only ONE DAY later.

Unfortunately, such an event would not result in a gentle inundation but massive tsunamis.

ETA; Nothing in your model suggests where all that additional water went AFTER the Flood either. That is something any global flood model HAS to account for.

ETA?

 

[Armoured]

ETA?

Edited to add.

 

[Armoured]

Hey, this thread reminds me... I've seen plenty of Flood apologists claim there have been fossils found on top of Mount Everest, can anyone actually tell me if this is true? Yes, I know all about geological uplift and all, I'm just curious if this oft repeated factoid has any basis?

 

[janxharris]

It would produce a massive world wide flood deposit that could not be missed. No such flood deposit exists.

What should we expect to see? What would a world wide flood deposit leave as evidence that it had occurred?