The Olivet Discourse

[claninja]

Where you are getting confused is equating the last days (plural) with the last day (singular), the end times with the end of time. We have obviously not experienced the last day yet, as we still have time and days and are still anticipating the coming of Christ and the future general resurrection/judgment.

This age is identified with sin, corruption and death, the age to come is marked by perfection, glorification and eternality.

So then you believe the end of the age of sin/corruption/death was at hand in the 1st century?

Adding 2,000+ years is the opposite of "at hand".

 

[sovereigngrace]

So then you believe the end of the age of sin/corruption/death was at hand in the 1st century?

Adding 2,000+ years is the opposite of "at hand".

In your opinion, and that of Full Preterism. The rest of us see the end of this age at the future second coming. That is the last day of the last days.

 

[grafted branch]

What do you call when He reappeared after His resurrection? Or when Stephen saw Him at the right hand of the Father? Or when He appeared to Saul on Saul's way to Damascus?

I’m not trying to butt in here but there is a physical ascension and return of Jesus after the cross.

In John 20:17 Jesus tell Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. In John 20:27 Jesus can now be touched because He tells Thomas to thrust his hand into His side. So Jesus must have ascended and came back sometime between these 2 events.

 

[Davy]

I’m not trying to butt in here but there is a physical ascension and return of Jesus after the cross.

In John 20:17 Jesus tell Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. In John 20:27 Jesus can now be touched because He tells Thomas to thrust his hand into His side. So Jesus must have ascended and came back sometime between these 2 events.

Oh... really???

If you believe the 40 days that Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection was the 2nd coming, then you've got a WHOLE LOT OF BIBLE STUDY TO DO!

There are specific events tied with the day of Jesus 2nd coming, and the gathering of His Church to Him is one of the MAIN ones, so your idea is truly ludicrous and shows you're just doing the same as others on men's doctrines, i.e., regurgitating their ideas without even having looked at them using common sense.

 

[Davy]

So then you believe the end of the age of sin/corruption/death was at hand in the 1st century?

Adding 2,000+ years is the opposite of "at hand".

Same thing I said to 'grafted branch' applies to you too. You are only regurgitating men's false doctrine that you haven't even looked at using common sense.

There are many specific events tied to the day of Christ's 2nd coming, and NONE of them have happened yet. If you don't know them, then you also, like 'grafted branch', have much Bible study to do.

 

[claninja]

In your opinion, and that of Full Preterism. The rest of us see the end of this age at the future second coming. That is the last day of the last days.

It is not my opinion that Peter stated the end of all things was at hand in the 1st century. It is a fact.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray

It is not my opinion that James states the coming of the Lord was at hand in the 1st century. It is a fact

James 5:8 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is at hand.

At hand and 2,000+ years later are polar opposite time frames.

So what "end" would have been at hand 2,000 years ago? It obviously wasn't the physical world.

 

[claninja]

You are only regurgitating men's false doctrine that you haven't even looked at using common sense.

This is a subjective argument, and I could also say to you. Let's stick with more objective arguments.

There are many specific events tied to the day of Christ's 2nd coming, and NONE of them have happened yet. If you don't know them, then you also, like 'grafted branch', have much Bible study to do.

None of the events in the olivet discourse have happened yet? Jerusalem was not surrounded by armies in 66-70ad, and the temple was not destroyed in 66-70ad?

 

[Davy]

It is not my opinion that Peter stated the end of all things was at hand in the 1st century. It is a fact.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray

It is not my opinion that James states the coming of the Lord was at hand in the 1st century. It is a fact

James 5:8 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is at hand.

At hand and 2,000+ years later are polar opposite time frames.

So what "end" would have been at hand 2,000 years ago? It obviously wasn't the physical world.

Greek for "at hand" means 'near' (Strong's no. 1448).

"Where's my car man? I know I parked it NEAR here," the man said. "Well John, just how NEAR did you park it?," Bob said.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is not my opinion that Peter stated the end of all things was at hand in the 1st century. It is a fact.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray

It is not my opinion that James states the coming of the Lord was at hand in the 1st century. It is a fact

James 5:8 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is at hand.

At hand and 2,000+ years later are polar opposite time frames.

So what "end" would have been at hand 2,000 years ago? It obviously wasn't the physical world.

I have repeatedly showed you that that phrase/word means “approaching.”

 

[Davy]

This is a subjective argument, and I could also say to you. Let's stick with more objective arguments.

None of the events in the olivet discourse have happened yet? Jerusalem was not surrounded by armies in 66-70ad, and the temple was not destroyed in 66-70ad?

No, you can't say that about me, because I don't just accept an idea without first confirming it written in God's Word. You are pushing a false idea from men's doctrine, and you haven't used common sense to confirm it in God's Word. I referred to the proof why, which I am not going to spoon feed you the whole Bible here. Like I said, there are MANY Scripture events prophesied to occur tied with Christ's 2nd coming, and they have NOT happened yet. One of the main ones is Christ's LITERAL gathering of His Church, as written.

 

[claninja]

I have repeatedly showed you that that phrase/word means “approaching.”

And "approaching" is used in relation to coming close or near to something in distance or time.

 

[claninja]

Greek for "at hand" means 'near' (Strong's no. 1448).

exactly

"Where's my car man? I know I parked it NEAR here," the man said. "Well John, just how NEAR did you park it?," Bob said.

If Bob parked 2,000 miles away, would it be appropriate to say near in this case?

No, you can't say that about me, because I don't just accept an idea without first confirming it written in God's Word.

So says everyone else with all their countless end times theories. They can't all be right, so why is your end time belief out of the thousands on this website the right one?

You are pushing a false idea from men's doctrine, and you haven't used common sense to confirm it in God's Word.

more subjective arguments, anyone can say the same thing about anyone else they disagree with.

I referred to the proof why, which I am not going to spoon feed you the whole Bible here.

So do you believe Luke 21:20-22 is in regards to 70ad or not?

 

[sovereigngrace]

And "approaching" is used in relation to coming close or near to something in distance or time.

The coming of the Lord is approaching. It has not yet occurred. Only heretics believe that.

 

[claninja]

The coming of the Lord is approaching. It has not yet occurred. Only heretics believe that.

This doesn't address that approach is not used for things thousands of miles or years away.

Luke 18:35 As he approached to Jericho, a blind man was sitting by the roadside begging

Luke 18:40 Jesus stopped and commanded him to be brought to him. And when he approached, he asked him,

Luke 15:1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all approaching to hear him.

Matthew 26:45 Then he came to the disciples and said to them, “Sleep and take your rest later on.e See, the hour is approaching, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners

So why all the sudden change the meaning of Approaching here to 2,000+ years away.

Hebrews 10:25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Either the author of Hebrews was right and the day was approaching the 1st century audience, or the author of Hebrews was wrong and you are right that the day is approaching the 21st century generation.

Why didn't the author of Hebrews just use the adverb form for "nearer"? Then there would be no issue. For we would be even nearer than Paul was 2,000 years ago.

Romans 13:11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

 

[Douggg]

None of the events in the olivet discourse have happened yet? Jerusalem was not surrounded by armies in 66-70ad, and the temple was not destroyed in 66-70ad?

Hi claninja,

Here is a chart I made of the Olivet discourse, verses.

 

[grafted branch]

Oh... really???

If you believe the 40 days that Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection was the 2nd coming, then you've got a WHOLE LOT OF BIBLE STUDY TO DO!

There are specific events tied with the day of Jesus 2nd coming, and the gathering of His Church to Him is one of the MAIN ones, so your idea is truly ludicrous and shows you're just doing the same as others on men's doctrines, i.e., regurgitating their ideas without even having looked at them using common sense.

Yes really! There are some people such as myself that actually use this forum to examine other points of view. In some cases such as the recent debates on this thread I haven’t studied enough to put forth an argument; however I just added something to a post I thought might be of interest.

If you take a closer look, I never called what happened in John 20 “the second coming”. I think we all know what people are referring to when they use the term “second coming”.

So yes really, I just wanted to add some information, that’s all!

 

[claninja]

Hi claninja,

Here is a chart I made of the Olivet discourse, verses.

View attachment 277275

Thanks for providing this Douggg, while I disagree where you separate the 1st century events and future events, it seems we can at least agree that Luke 21:20-23 occurred in the 1st century.

 

[Douggg]

Thanks for providing this Douggg, while I disagree where you separate the 1st century events and future events, it seems we can at least agree that Luke 21:20-23 occurred in the 1st century.

 

[parousia70]

Greek for "at hand" means 'near' (Strong's no. 1448).

"Where's my car man? I know I parked it NEAR here," the man said. "Well John, just how NEAR did you park it?," Bob said.

Jesus used the term here:

Matthew 24:33
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

is it your position that this is to be interpreted as:
"when you see all these things, know that it is still thousands of years away"?

Or do you believe Jesus was, in this passage, using the plain meaning of the term "near"?

 

[parousia70]

The Old Testament prophecies and what Jesus taught them for that time is where Paul had to pull from. That's enough written in Paul's time to know the order of events leading up to Christ's 2nd coming. So Paul's reminding the Thessalonians of that was not about setting the date of Christ's return in the 1st century. The Bible teaching about the "day of the Lord" goes back to the OT prophets, which is where Paul was pulling from on that, and it is set for the final day of this present world. That is why both Paul and Peter linked it as a day of God's sudden destruction on earth.

And this addresses my question as to WHY the HS inspired Paul to admonish the 1st century Thessalonian congregation to "watch and be ready" for the day of the Lord... How?