The Olivet Discourse

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parousia70

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I have furnished you with numerous examples over the months but you dismiss them because of your obsession with the coming of Titus and AD70. The rest of us are focused on Christ, His First and Second Advents.
Sounds like a cop out.

Besides, just a couple posts ago, you were going to show the scriptural support for you belief that John's use of "it is the last hour" (singular) is scripturally meant to be understood as the 2000 year "intra-advent" period... now you switch to "the last days" (plural) in a seemingly obvious attempt to avoid the question... and here you keep avoiding it...

If your sole argument for NOT providing scriptural support for your position is that "I won't listen", then you might consider this an opportunity to provide your answer for our readers who will.

They're presently making their own assessment of who's view (mine or yours) has the greater weight of scripture behind it, so you might consider throwing some scripture on your side of the scale because the scripture is already overwhelming built up on my side :)
 
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sovereigngrace

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Sounds like a cop out.

Besides, just a couple posts ago, you were going to show the scriptural support for you belief that John's use of "it is the last hour" (singular) is scripturally meant to be understood as the 2000 year "intra-advent" period... now you switch to "the last days" (plural) in a seemingly obvious attempt to avoid the question... and here you keep avoiding it...

If your sole argument for NOT providing scriptural support for your position is that "I won't listen", then you might consider this an opportunity to provide your answer for our readers who will.

They're presently making their own assessment of who's view (mine or yours) has the greater weight of scripture behind it, so you might consider throwing some scripture on your side of the scale because the scripture is already overwhelming built up on my side :)

When is “the last day” and what happens then?
 
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mkgal1

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Lets start with nailing down the BEGINNING. Can you do that for us?

You said they began BEFORE TITUS...(I believe that as well) so maybe we can build on that agreement?

How Long Before Titus do you believe they began?

What event do you believe scripture teaches marked the BEGINNING of the Biblical "Last Days"?

When is “the last day” and what happens then?
Why did you change the subject? Why not just answer Parousia70's question? I quoted it for you, so it's handy.
 
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mkgal1

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I have furnished you with numerous examples over the months but you dismiss them because of your obsession with the coming of Titus and AD70. The rest of us are focused on Christ, His First and Second Advents.
Actually.....ISTM that those of us that recognize the huge impact that the destruction of the Temple/Jerusalem in 70 AD had and consider it was a fulfillment of the words of the prophets and the words of Christ are the ones that are focused on Christ in this case.

You seem to be the only one labeling that event as "the coming of Titus". I would call it a revelation of Christ".

*That may be awkwardly phrased...but i hope it makes sense.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I wish you could live up to your own expectation on this.

Did every eye of everyone in every nation See Gods actual arm as "scripture specifically says" here:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

Please furnish us with any witness accounts.

Did EVERY EYE of Every person of every nation SEE God execute Judgment upon Israel at the time of the Babylonian Exile as "scripture specifically says" here:

Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. (Ez 5:7-9)

Please furnish us with any witness accounts.

Did ALL FLESH SEE God Kindle the fire In Israel that devoured every green tree there at that same time as "scripture specifically says" here?

Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...
(Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Please furnish us with any witness accounts.

Nobody saw Jesus coming in AD70 because He did not come then. There’s no scripture that predicts it. It was God‘s judgment upon natural Israel. He did not come to rescue, resurrect or judge anyone on judgment day at that time. Only Full Preterism believes that nonsense.
 
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mkgal1

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sovereigngrace

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Exactly....which is what previous "comings" of the Lord were.

Jesus First coming was 2000 years ago, His second coming will occur on the last day when He glorifies His people and glorifies this earth. That is the day of the general resurrection and the general judgment.
 
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mkgal1

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Jesus First coming was 2000 years ago, His second coming will occur on the last day when He glorifies His people and glorifies this earth. That is the day of the general resurrection and the general judgment.
You seem to be denying the Trinity. Christ always was....Jesus was just a physical manifestation of Christ. Christ is without beginning or end (for those that believe in the Triune God). I believe in Christophanies in the Old Testament.

"In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was with God and the Word was God" (John 1:1).​


"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made." ~ Nicene Creed
 
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mkgal1

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His second coming will occur on the last day
What do you call when He reappeared after His resurrection? Or when Stephen saw Him at the right hand of the Father? Or when He appeared to Saul on Saul's way to Damascus?
 
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parousia70

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Nobody saw Jesus coming in AD70 because He did not come then.

Nobody Saw God coming these times either, but He ABSOLUTELY CAME in Power and Glory:

YAHWEH WAS NOT SEEN BY HUMAN EYES HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

NOR HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

NOR HERE:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

Here one more that should hammer this fact home to any honest Bible expositor:

AFTER David's Defeat of Saul, He described the battle this way:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Sorry Friend, you hypothesis of "nobody saw, therefore it didnt Happen exactly as the Prophet said it would", has been examined thoroughly,and found wanting.

There’s no scripture that predicts it.

Rather, Hundreds do.

Jesus and the apostles taught of a coming to occur in their lifetimes, and by this they meant the imminent destruction of their country, city, and Temple, which took place in short order as they had prophesied:

"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mk. 13:30) [spoken in AD 30]

"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Lk. 3:9) [spoken in AD 27-28]

"The end of all things is at hand" (I Peter 4:7) [spoken in AD 58-63]

"Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18) [spoken in AD 60s]

be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (James. 5:8) [spoken before AD 63]

"in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay." (Heb. 10:37) [spoken in AD 60s]

"These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk. 21:22) [spoken in AD 30]

"The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matthew 16:27-28) [spoken in AD 30]

[ It was God‘s judgment upon natural Israel.

It was God COMING to Judge Israel. (and Jesus IS God)
It was "The coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" to destroy those wicked men and lease His vineyard to another nation.

According to Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard would "come destroy those miserable men," which speaks of AD 70. And in coming and destroying those miserable men, he "took the Kingdom away from them and gave it to a new nation." Christ the Stone "fell on them and scattered them to dust," and the chief priests and Pharisees "recognized Jesus spoke these words concerning them." That just couldn't be more clearly prophesied:

"Therefore when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers?" They told him, "He will miserably destroy those miserable men...Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but on whoever it will fall, it will scatter him as dust." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke about them. (Matthew 21:40-45)

You are wholly mistaken if you don't believe AD 66-70 was THAT coming of the Lord, the Chief Cornerstone to crush them..

It was Also the Coming of Christ As A thief that Jesus PROMISED would befall first century peoples.
Christ promised to come against 1st century Sardis as a Thief in the Night, a promise which our Lord surely kept, for our Lord is a promise keeper!

Revelation 3:1-3
"To the angel of the CHURCH IN SARDIS write: These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF THEREFORE THOU SHALT NOT WATCH I WILL COME ON THEE AS A THIEF, AND THOU SHALT NOT KNOW WHAT HOUR I WILL COME UPON THEE."

Jesus didn't issue empty threats. He promised to come upon Sardis back then and he DID come upon Sardis. He could not lie.

Only Full Preterism believes that nonsense.

You should really brush up on what partial preterists actually believe and espouse, and have done so for centuries.... How many NON full pretetrist ECF's or NON full preterist Church Historians would it take for me to quote, for you to recant that completely untrue statement?

Classical preterism (i.e. The Catholic Preterism of the likes of James Aiken, Scott Hahn, St Cryssostom, St Thomas Aquinas, Eusebius, etc...) sees AD 70 as a temporal judgment of God/Christ that is not pertaining to the final advent, except as a general prefiguring of it.
I agree with these respected thinkers on this topic.

St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Eusebius all understood this basic principle of bible eschatology, and we really ought to take their words to heart.

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's [future] coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)
 
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sovereigngrace

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You seem to be denying the Trinity. Christ always was....Jesus was just a physical manifestation of Christ. Christ is without beginning or end (for those that believe in the Triune God). I believe in Christophanies in the Old Testament.

"In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was with God and the Word was God" (John 1:1).​


"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made." ~ Nicene Creed

What are you talking about? You should think before hurling false charges. What I said is orthodox, biblical and correct. While the Son of God is eternal, He took on human flesh 2000 years ago and became man at His first advent.

It is a more troubling issue how you spiritualize the second coming and promote the eventual reconciliation of Satan and the wicked to Christ.

That is heresy!

I am not going to take lectures from you on orthodoxy.
 
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Davy

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You mentioned communism and socialism in your post, so why did you omit capitalism? Both socialism and communism are designed to (theoretically) eliminate the super-rich, while capitalism isn't.

Although I don't agree with capitalist monopolies, I do agree with free enterprise, which is actually God's way, because in His future Kingdom he said one won't build and another inhabit, and we each will enjoy the fruits of our labor. And Apostle Paul said if one won't work, let not that man eat.

So one needs to be careful about the word capitalist, because it does not mean just the super-rich controlling monopolies over the poor. It actually points to a free market economy and the right of private ownership. The Communist propagandists have tried to smear the real meaning of the word, because the matter is really about a free market system. When even the U.S. Government takes control over the market that is no longer a free-enterprise capitalist system.

Communism/Socialism in contrast, is about a political system controlling the market and is against private ownership of property (i.e., they are against us 'owning' property).
 
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sovereigngrace

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What do you call when He reappeared after His resurrection? Or when Stephen saw Him at the right hand of the Father? Or when He appeared to Saul on Saul's way to Damascus?

Spiritual manifestations of Christ to His people as the divine Lord did not/do not negate His glorious climactic physical return in majesty and glory on the last day to raise man, judge man and usher in perfection.

Heb 9:28 confirms: “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
 
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Nobody Saw God coming these times either, but He ABSOLUTELY CAME in Power and Glory:

YAHWEH WAS NOT SEEN BY HUMAN EYES HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

NOR HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

NOR HERE:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

Here one more that should hammer this fact home to any honest Bible expositor:

AFTER David's Defeat of Saul, He described the battle this way:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Sorry Friend, you hypothesis of "nobody saw, therefore it didnt Happen exactly as the Prophet said it would", has been examined thoroughly,and found wanting.



Rather, Hundreds do.

Jesus and the apostles taught of a coming to occur in their lifetimes, and by this they meant the imminent destruction of their country, city, and Temple, which took place in short order as they had prophesied:

"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mk. 13:30) [spoken in AD 30]

"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Lk. 3:9) [spoken in AD 27-28]

"The end of all things is at hand" (I Peter 4:7) [spoken in AD 58-63]

"Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18) [spoken in AD 60s]

be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (James. 5:8) [spoken before AD 63]

"in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay." (Heb. 10:37) [spoken in AD 60s]

"These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk. 21:22) [spoken in AD 30]

"The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matthew 16:27-28) [spoken in AD 30]



It was God COMING to Judge Israel. (and Jesus IS God)
It was "The coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" to destroy those wicked men and lease His vineyard to another nation.

According to Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard would "come destroy those miserable men," which speaks of AD 70. And in coming and destroying those miserable men, he "took the Kingdom away from them and gave it to a new nation." Christ the Stone "fell on them and scattered them to dust," and the chief priests and Pharisees "recognized Jesus spoke these words concerning them." That just couldn't be more clearly prophesied:

"Therefore when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers?" They told him, "He will miserably destroy those miserable men...Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but on whoever it will fall, it will scatter him as dust." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke about them. (Matthew 21:40-45)

You are wholly mistaken if you don't believe AD 66-70 was THAT coming of the Lord, the Chief Cornerstone to crush them..

It was Also the Coming of Christ As A thief that Jesus PROMISED would befall first century peoples.
Christ promised to come against 1st century Sardis as a Thief in the Night, a promise which our Lord surely kept, for our Lord is a promise keeper!

Revelation 3:1-3
"To the angel of the CHURCH IN SARDIS write: These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF THEREFORE THOU SHALT NOT WATCH I WILL COME ON THEE AS A THIEF, AND THOU SHALT NOT KNOW WHAT HOUR I WILL COME UPON THEE."

Jesus didn't issue empty threats. He promised to come upon Sardis back then and he DID come upon Sardis. He could not lie.



You should really brush up on what partial preterists actually believe and espouse, and have done so for centuries.... How many NON full pretetrist ECF's or NON full preterist Church Historians would it take for me to quote, for you to recant that completely untrue statement?

Classical preterism (i.e. The Catholic Preterism of the likes of James Aiken, Scott Hahn, St Cryssostom, St Thomas Aquinas, Eusebius, etc...) sees AD 70 as a temporal judgment of God/Christ that is not pertaining to the final advent, except as a general prefiguring of it.
I agree with these respected thinkers on this topic.

St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Eusebius all understood this basic principle of bible eschatology, and we really ought to take their words to heart.

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's [future] coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

Jesus has NOT returned. That is Full Preterist heresy that belong far outside the pale of Christianity. You have no scripture to support such error.
 
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mkgal1

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It is a more troubling issue how you spiritualize the second coming.

That is heresy!
It's not a spiritualized event when there were literal and physical results (historically recorded). The fact that there were tangible results is what made these "comings of God".
 
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Davy

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Tell us why you believe The HS Inspired Paul to Tell THE FIRST CENTURY THESSALONIANS, that THEY NEEDED TO WATCH AND BE READY for the DAY OF THE LORD so it would NOT overtake THEM unawares?

I think you have no answer, otherwise you would have furnished one by now....

The Old Testament prophecies and what Jesus taught them for that time is where Paul had to pull from. That's enough written in Paul's time to know the order of events leading up to Christ's 2nd coming. So Paul's reminding the Thessalonians of that was not about setting the date of Christ's return in the 1st century. The Bible teaching about the "day of the Lord" goes back to the OT prophets, which is where Paul was pulling from on that, and it is set for the final day of this present world. That is why both Paul and Peter linked it as a day of God's sudden destruction on earth.
 
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Davy

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I see no discrepancy in that image. The western wall of the Temple was destroyed. The wailing wall is from the western wall of Fort Antonia....which is not the Temple.

View attachment 277231

You mean you don't want to admit... what that image shows.

It shows the Antonia fortress on the North, which YOU said is where the Western Wall is located. But in reality, as I HAVE SAID BEFORE, the Western Wall is located nearer to the southern end of the West side, next to Robinson's Arch.
 
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mkgal1

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sovereigngrace

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I've not seen any biblical support for a numbered coming of Christ. It's not completely spuritualized when there were literal and physical results (historically recorded). The fact that there were tangible results is what made these "comings of God".

I have repeatedly exposed the heretical denial of the literal second coming here by you and others with multiple Scripture. You have ducked around this because it exposes your spiritualization of Christ’s literal physical future return for His elect.
 
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