The Olive Tree of Israel and the Mystery of Israel's Blindness

[Clare73]

Hello @Clare73,
With respect to you, I understand that you should believe what you state in your two last paragraphs, but where are you actually told so in Scripture?
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The (administrative) root of the olive tree (Romans 11:15) is the patriarchs (Romans 11:18).

Paul speaks of Israel being grafted in again (Romans 11:23) to one and the same tree, which means it remains at least until they come in.
But also, the tree is the one people of God going back to Abraham, the patriarch, which in the analogy is the only entrance of the Gentiles into the people of God, and which tree in the NT is the body of Christ.
Therefore, in the analogy the tree (the body of Christ) must remain "until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." (Romans 11:25). And Gentiles are still coming in, I being one of them.

So the tree necessarily remains for the Gentiles still coming in, as well as for Israel to come in, if they do not persist in unbelief (Romans 11:23), which they have done now for longer than they were the people of God.

 

[Clare73]

Hello @Clare73

Yet, we know through prophecy that they will be brought to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King, don't we? So the IF becomes WHEN.(Jeremiah 31:31+)

Praise God!

Well, it seems Paul understood prophecy differently.

God told Miriam that when he spoke to the prophets, he spoke in visions and dreams, in contrast to the way he spoke to Moses--clearly and not in "dark sayings" (riddles) whose meanings were not clear (Numbers 12:8).
From this we learn that prophecy is given in riddles, rather than literally and clearly.

My point being that:
1) prophetic riddles, not being given clearly, can be interpreted in more than one way,
2) no personal interpretation of prophetic riddles is certain until it is fulfilled,
3) apostolic interpretation is authoritative,
4) all interpretation of prophetic riddles not in agreement with NT apostolic didactics (teaching) is in error.

But back to your question. . .in light of Numbers 12:8, can we say that "we know" when it comes to prophecy?

So the IF remains until WHEN.

 

[readywriter]

@Maria Billingsley, (1) reply#20
@Clare73 (2) replies#21-22

Thank you both for your responses, which I have to leave without further reply at the moment, but acknowledge with love in Christ Jesus

Chris

 

[readywriter]

As a metaphor blindness describes those who dwell in spiritual darkness. The Messiah came to fulfill the Torah and He did. The Temple was of no effect though sacrifices continued.
The blindness only lasted a short time so that the Gospel could be spread to the Gentiles in other words, a solid base of Christians made from both the remnant Jews and Gentiles. Then the end of the age comes to fulfillment in 70AD.
After this the blindness , spiritual darkness ( Temple Judaism) ended.

Hello Maria,

Thank you for responding.

What Scriptural proof can you provide, so that I can confirm this?

 

[readywriter]

Well, it seems Paul understood prophecy differently.

God told Miriam that when he spoke to the prophets, he spoke in visions and dreams, in contrast to the way he spoke to Moses--clearly and not in "dark sayings" (riddles) whose meanings were not clear (Numbers 12:8).
From this we learn that prophecy is given in riddles, rather than literally and clearly.

My point being that:
1) prophetic riddles, not being given clearly, can be interpreted in more than one way,
2) no personal interpretation of prophetic riddles is certain until it is fulfilled,
3) apostolic interpretation is authoritative,
4) all interpretation of prophetic riddles not in agreement with NT apostolic didactics (teaching) is in error.

But back to your question. . .in light of Numbers 12:8, can we say that "we know" when it comes to prophecy?

So the IF remains until WHEN.

'With him will I speak mouth to mouth,
even apparently, and not in dark speeches;
and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:
wherefore then were ye not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?'
(Num 12:8)

Hello Clare,

God spoke to Moses 'mouth to mouth', as the Lord Jesus Christ did to His disciples in relation to the parables (Matthew 13:34-35).

We know that Israel will come to repentance and that God will forgive them, for we are told that clearly in the words of God spoken through the prophets. No prophecy of the Scriptures is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). So, Yes, I can say with certainty that it is a matter of 'When' and not 'If'. For God's will, will be perfectly done.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[readywriter]

1) The (administrative) root of the olive tree (Romans 11:15) is the patriarchs (Romans 11:18).

2) Paul speaks of Israel being grafted in again (Romans 11:23) to one and the same tree, which means it remains at least until they come in.

3) But also, the tree is the one people of God going back to Abraham, the patriarch, which in the analogy is the only entrance of the Gentiles into the people of God, and which tree in the NT is the body of Christ.

4)Therefore, in the analogy the tree (the body of Christ) must remain "until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." (Romans 11:25). And Gentiles are still coming in, I being one of them.

So the tree necessarily remains for the Gentiles still coming in, as well as for Israel to come in, if they do not persist in unbelief (Romans 11:23), which they have done now for longer than they were the people of God.

Hello Clare73,

With respect, I do not find either Romans 11:15 or Romans 11:18 confirmatory of your statement that the administrative root is the patriarchs. Though Romans 11:17 does speak of 'the root and fatness of the olive tree,' referring to the rich blessings which come from the root, those blessings being Abrahamic, a foretaste of millennial blessing.

Romans 11:23, also concerns unbelieving individuals of Israel, who as the 'branches' broken off, would, if they believed, be grafted into the Olive Tree again: and not Israel as a nation. For the Olive Tree is figurative, and representative of the covenant privileges of Israel which are now in abeyance, because of Israel's failure to believe and rejection of their Messiah and King. Israel's covenant privileges are no longer there to be grafted into and partaken of, for Israel is now in a Lo-ammi condition.

The Church which is the Body of Christ is not represented by the figure of an Olive Tree. This company came to the fore with the dispersal of Israel among the nations in unbelief: and is the divine revelation of God concerning the Mystery, which is Christ 'in' or 'among' you (the Gentiles) their hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) (Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians).

When Israel repents they will once again partake of the covenant blessings assured them, the Olive Tree will flourish again because it's roots remain.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hello Maria,

Thank you for responding.

What Scriptural proof can you provide, so that I can confirm this?

Romans 11
There was only a " partial blindness". Any and all Jews either remain on the Olive Tree as belivers , get grafted back in as a beliver or remain broken off if they do not believe. The key is they never experienced full blindness. At any point the Olive Tree was open to them. The destruction of the Temple was the end of their age leaving the Olive Tree as the only source for redemption.

 

[Clare73]

Hello Clare73,

With respect, I do not find either Romans 11:15 or Romans 11:18 confirmatory of your statement that the administrative root is the patriarchs. Though Romans 11:17 does speak of 'the root and fatness of the olive tree,' referring to the rich blessings which come from the root, those blessings being Abrahamic, a foretaste of millennial blessing.

Romans 11:23, also concerns unbelieving individuals of Israel, who as the 'branches' broken off, would, if they believed, be grafted into the Olive Tree again: and not Israel as a nation. For the Olive Tree is figurative, and representative of the covenant privileges of Israel which are now in abeyance, because of Israel's failure to believe and rejection of their Messiah and King. Israel's covenant privileges are no longer there to be grafted into and partaken of, for Israel is now in a Lo-ammi condition.

The Church which is the Body of Christ is not represented by the figure of an Olive Tree. This company came to the fore with the dispersal of Israel among the nations in unbelief: and is the divine revelation of God concerning the Mystery, which is Christ 'in' or 'among' you (the Gentiles) their hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) (Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians).

When Israel repents they will once again partake of the covenant blessings assured them, the Olive Tree will flourish again because it's roots remain.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Well, it seems the apostle, who received his teaching from Jesus personally (Galatians 1:11-12), understood the prophetic riddles differently.

So in Romans 11:23, IF remains until WHEN.

 

[readywriter]

Romans 11
There was only a " partial blindness". Any and all Jews either remain on the Olive Tree as believers , get grafted back in as a believer or remain broken off if they do not believe. The key is they never experienced full blindness. At any point the Olive Tree was open to them. The destruction of the Temple was the end of their age leaving the Olive Tree as the only source for redemption.

'Beware therefore, lest that come upon you,
which is spoken of in the prophets;
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish:
for I work a work in your days,
a work which ye shall in no wise believe,
though a man declare it unto you.'
(Act 13:40)

Hello Maria,

The hardness, signified by the word 'blindness' of Romans 11:25-26 was partial, as you say, for a believing remnant was called out from among Israel at that time.

Yet, the warning above quoted from the book of Acts, made by Paul to the Jews of the dispersion, was not heeded, so the curse of Isaiah 6:9-10 came upon them in Acts 28:23-28.

Otherwise, why the events of AD70, and why the dispersal among the nations, and the Lo-ammi state that they are at present in?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[readywriter]

Well, it seems the apostle, who received his teaching from Jesus personally (Galatians 1:11-12), understood the prophetic riddles differently.

So in Romans 11:23, IF remains until WHEN.

Hello @clare,

The prophecies concerning Israel hold not uncertainty for me, regarding God's purposes being accomplished, so the word 'if' has no place, it is only a matter of when.

Thank you for engaging with me as you have.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

'Beware therefore, lest that come upon you,
which is spoken of in the prophets;
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish:
for I work a work in your days,
a work which ye shall in no wise believe,
though a man declare it unto you.'
(Act 13:40)

Hello Maria,

The hardness, signified by the word 'blindness' of Romans 11:25-26 was partial, as you say, for a believing remnant was called out from among Israel at that time.

Yet, the warning above quoted from the book of Acts, made by Paul to the Jews of the dispersion, was not heeded, so the curse of Isaiah 6:9-10 came upon them in Acts 28:23-28.

Otherwise, why the events of AD70, and why the dispersal among the nations, and the Lo-ammi state that they are at present in?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I am not so sure it was a curse that was put upon those in Israel who rejected the Messiah but rather judgment. Their house became desolate due to their abomination. Blood on their hands of their own doing and harded hearts due to their dullness. Salvation is open to all now. There is only one Israel and they are part of the Olive Tree.

 

[readywriter]

I am not so sure it was a curse that was put upon those in Israel who rejected the Messiah but rather judgment. Their house became desolate due to their abomination. Blood on their hands of their own doing and harded hearts due to their dullness. Salvation is open to all now. There is only one Israel and they are part of the Olive Tree.

Hello @maria,

Thank you for your response. There has always been one Israel, and that is the nation of Israel. The Jews were cast off for a time (though not cast away v.1), and that because of unbelief.

The Olive Tree represents the Covenant privileges of Israel which are now in abeyance, not the church.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hello @maria,

Thank you for your response. There has always been one Israel, and that is the nation of Israel. The Jews were cast off for a time (though not cast away v.1), and that because of unbelief.

The Olive Tree represents the Covenant privileges of Israel which are now in abeyance, not the church.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ok. Thanks for engaging in an interesting conversation!
Be blessed.

 

[Clare73]

Hello @clare,

The prophecies concerning Israel hold not uncertainty for me, regarding God's purposes being accomplished, so the word 'if' has no place, it is only a matter of when.

Thank you for engaging with me as you have.

"NT Scriptures conclude the truth of all Scripture."

I don't allow myself the "freedom" to deny the NT Scriptures: "They will be grafted in again if they do not persist in unbelief." (Romans 11:23)
.

 

[readywriter]

“The Lord called thy name, a green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit:
with the noise of a great tumult He hath kindled fire upon it,
and the branches of it are broken.
For the Lord of hosts, That planted thee,
hath pronounced evil against thee,
for the evil of the house of Israel, and of the house of Judah.…”.
(Jer. 11:16-17)

* In this context it is clear the olive tree is a metaphor for Israel.

 

[readywriter]

"NT Scriptures conclude the truth of all Scripture."

I don't allow myself the "freedom" to deny the NT Scriptures: "They will be grafted in again if they do not persist in unbelief." (Romans 11:23).

Hi @Clare73,

Thank you for your time and your patience.

Yes, in that context 'if' individuals from the nation of Israel, did not persist in unbelief they would indeed have been grafted into the Olive Tree, which represents Israel's covenant privileges.

Yet thankfully we know, because God has told us through His Old Testament Prophets, that Israel will be brought to repentance, and that He will forgive them for all their sins, and that they will fulfill the purpose that He has for them in that day.

Thank you Claire,

 

[Clare73]

“The Lord called thy name, a green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit:
with the noise of a great tumult He hath kindled fire upon it,
and the branches of it are broken.
For the Lord of hosts, That planted thee,
hath pronounced evil against thee,
for the evil of the house of Israel, and of the house of Judah.…”.

(Jer. 11:16-17)

* In this context it is clear the olive tree is a metaphor for Israel.

"NT Scriptures conclude the truth of all Scripture."

However, is Romans 11:17 not clear that Israel are branches on that tree which have been broken off and replaced with Gentiles, so that the olive tree is actually a metaphor for the people of God?

Israel was branches on the tree, not the trunk nor the root.

 

[Clare73]

Hi @Clare73,
Thank you for your time and your patience.
Yes, in that context 'if' individuals from the nation of Israel, did not persist in unbelief they would indeed have been grafted into the Olive Tree, which represents Israel's covenant privileges.

Yet thankfully we know, because God has told us through His Old Testament Prophets, that Israel will be brought to repentance, and that He will forgive them for all their sins, and that they will fulfill the purpose that He has for them in that day.

Thank you Claire,

Keeping in mind that prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation, because God does not give its meaning clearly, but in "dark sayings" or riddles (Numbers 12:8), so we have no certainty of its precise meaning apart from NT apostolic didactics, for prophecy likewise can be metaphorical.

However, "NT Scriptures conclude the truth of all Scripture". . .Paul's NT revelation concludes the truth of the matter, and that truth is conditional. . .on faith.

 

[readywriter]

Keeping in mind that prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation, because God does not give its meaning clearly but in "dark sayings" or riddles (Numbers 12:8), so we have no certainty that is precisely its meaning, they likewise can be metaphorical.

However, Paul's NT revelation concludes the truth of the matter, and that truth is conditional.

Hello @Clare73,

I do not believe Old Testament prophecies are open to private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). Or that their saying are 'dark', as we are told parables and proverbs to be (Psalms 78:2 & Proverbs 1:6).

That the olive tree is a figure of speech is true, and is only a representation of Israel's covenant privileges. The believing gentile was partaking of the root and fatness of the covenant blessings of Israel, which were millennial in form, with the gifts of the spirit. They had been brought in to make Israel jealous, and to make the Jew seek to emulate them, and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and thereby be saved. (Romans 11:14)

With thanks.
Chris

 

[Clare73]

Hello @Clare73,

I do not believe Old Testament prophecies are open to private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20).

Yes. ..agreed with 2 Peter 1:20 that the prophets do not give any interpretations, they just give the words which God gave them.

Or that their saying are 'dark',

Well. . .I'm stuck with what God himself said in Numbers 12:8, that while he speaks to the other prophets in dark sayings (riddles) and not clearly, he speaks to Moses clearly.
So I'm stuck with not allowing myself the freedom to disagree with Numbers 12:8; i.e., the meaning of prophecy is not given clearly,
nor to disagree with Romans 11:23 which is spoken clearly. . .since the "NT Scriptures conclude the truth of all Scripture."

as we are told parables and proverbs to be (Psalm 78:2 & Proverbs 1:6).

That the olive tree is a figure of speech is true, and is only a representation of Israel's covenant privileges. The believing gentile was partaking of the root and fatness of the covenant blessings of Israel, which were millennial in form, with the gifts of the spirit. They had been brought in to make Israel jealous, and to make the Jew seek to emulate them, and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

With thanks.
Chris