The Olive Tree of Israel and the Mystery of Israel's Blindness

readywriter

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Yes. ..agreed with 2 Peter 1:20 that the prophets do not give any interpretations, they just give the words of the prophecies

Well. . .I'm stuck with what God himself said in Numbers 12:8, that while he speaks to the other prophets in dark sayings (riddles) and not clearly, he speaks to Moses clearly.
So I'm stuck with not allowing myself the freedom to disagree with Numbers 12:8 that the meaning of prophecy is not given clearly,
nor to disagree with Romans 11:23 because it is spoken clearly. . .the "NT Scriptures concluding the truth of all Scripture."
'And He said, Hear now My words:
If there be a prophet among you,
I the LORD will make Myself known unto him in a vision,
and will speak unto him in a dream.
My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

With him will I speak mouth to mouth,
even apparently, and not in dark speeches;
and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:
wherefore then were ye not afraid
to speak against My servant Moses?'

(Num 12:6-8)

Hello again, Clare,

Moses was a Prophet of God's choosing, it was to him that God spoke, and it was through him that God conveyed to Aaron the priest, and the Children of Israel His words. He says in the verses you have quoted from Numbers, that he did not speak to Moses in either a dream or a vision, but 'mouth to mouth', and not in dark speeches.

In those verses God is speaking in defence of Moses, before Aaron and Moses, who were rebelling against His divinely given position of authority.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Clare73

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'And He said, Hear now My words: If there be a prophet among you,
I the LORD will make Myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
With him will I speak mouth to mouth,
even apparently (clearly), and not in dark speeches;
and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:
wherefore then were ye not afraid
to speak against My servant Moses?' (Num 12:6-8)
Hello again, Clare,
Moses was a Prophet, it was to him that God spoke, and it was through him that God conveyed to Aaron the priest, and the Children of Israel His words. He says in the verses you have quoted from Numbers, that he did not speak to Moses in either a dream or a vision, but 'mouth to mouth', and not in dark speeches.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Did you notice that God said that in contrast (contrary) to the way he spoke to other prophets; i.e. in visions and dreams which require interpretation, and not clearly?
 
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readywriter

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Did you notice that God said that in contrast (contrary) to the way he spoke to other prophets; i.e. in visions and dreams which require interpretation, and not clearly?
'And they said,
Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses?
hath He not spoken also by us?
And the LORD heard it.

(Numbers 12:2)

Hello Clare,

Yes, I did notice that: but in this instance it was Aaron and Moses who were speaking against Moses, and claiming that God has spoken through them too. They were not called and chosen to be a Prophet by God as Moses had been, or Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, or David who had been equally called and equipped for that specific task.

These were those who claimed to have spoken for God, but were not called for that purpose, so I do not believe that within this context, the words of God spoken to Aaron and Miriam, should be applied to the Old Testament Prophets who had been called and chosen and endowed by the Holy Spirit to perform that task.

The way to be sure is to read the prophetic books and see how God speaks to them, and what is said through them.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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readywriter

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'And they also,
if they abide not still in unbelief,
shall be grafted in:
for God is able to graft them in again.'

(Rom 11:23)

Hello there, @Clare73,

Yes, God would graft them in again, into the covenant privileges of Israel that they forfeited because of unbelief, so they could partake of the root and fatness of it's blessings.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Clare73

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'And they said,
Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses?
hath He not spoken also by us?
And the LORD heard it.

(Numbers 12:2)

Hello Clare,

Yes, I did notice that: but in this instance it was Aaron and Moses who were speaking against Moses, and claiming that God has spoken through them too. They were not called and chosen to be a Prophet by God as Moses had been, or Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, or David who had been equally called and equipped for that specific task.

These were those who claimed to have spoken for God, but were not called for that purpose, so I do not believe that within this context, the words of God spoken to Aaron and Miriam, should be applied to the Old Testament Prophets who had been called and chosen and endowed by the Holy Spirit to perform that task.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Thanks. . .you're making me work here.

However, God did speak to the OT prophets in dreams and visions (see Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc.), so would he not, therefore, be referring to the OT prophets there?
Though irrelevant, do we know of any visions and dreams which he gave to Miriam that would demonstrate he was referring to Miriam in Numbers 12:8?

Now while God's statement regarding prophets is simply a demonstration of his favor to Moses, we do learn a Biblical fact there; i.e., that God does not speak clearly, but in riddles, when he gives prophecy.
And prophecy being given in riddles, and not clearly, makes it subject to more than one interpretation.

The only rule for interpretation being: all interpretation must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic didactics, because the
"NT Scriptures conclude the truth of all Scripture."
 
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Clare73

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'And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in:
for God is able to graft them in again.'(Rom 11:23)
Hello there, @Clare73,
Yes, God would graft them in again, into the covenant privileges of Israel that they forfeited because of unbelief, so they could partake of the root and fatness of it's blessings.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
The covenants to Israel have been fulfilled:
the land promise was fulfilled in 1 Kings 4:21, 1 Kings 4:24-25, and
the everlasting possession (Genesis 17:8, Genesis 48:4) fulfilled in their eternal inheritance
(Hebrews 11:16) through Jesus Christ.

There remains only the New Covenant of Jesus Christ for the people of God,
the Old Covenant being obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).
"The NT Scriptures conclude the truth of all Scripture."
 
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readywriter

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Thanks. . .you're making me work here.

However, God did speak to the OT prophets in dreams and visions (see Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc.), so would he not, therefore, be referring to the OT prophets there?
Though irrelevant, do we know of any visions and dreams which he gave to Miriam that would demonstrate he was referring to Miriam in Numbers 12:8?

Now while God's statement regarding prophets is simply a demonstration of his favor to Moses, we do learn a Biblical fact there; i.e., that God does not speak clearly, but in riddles, when he gives prophecy.
And prophecy being given in riddles, and not clearly, makes it subject to more than one interpretation.

The only rule for interpretation being: all interpretation must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic didactics, because the
"NT Scriptures conclude the truth of all Scripture."
Hello @Clare73.

Sitting eating my evening meal, my mind was thinking of my last reply to you, and I was not happy with it.

For God did, as you say, speak in visions and dreams and with dark sayings, to the prophets: but I would not by any means call them riddles. If He cloaked His words in darkness it was for a purpose, for there was an enemy at large. in Peter's epistle, as has been already remarked, we are told that prophecy is not open to private interpretation.

Where does this leave us, Clare? I am afraid I have lost track of where we are going.

Going to have a coffee now, to sharpen my wits.
With love in Christ Jesus to you,
and to our fellow traveller, @Maria Billingsley.
Chris
 
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readywriter

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The covenants with Israel have been fulfilled in their eternal inheritance through Jesus Christ.

There remains only the New Covenant of Jesus Christ for the people of God,
the Old Covenant being obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).
"The NT Scriptures conclude the truth of all Scripture."
Hello again, Clare73,

This is one that must wait until I have drunk my coffee.

:)
 
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readywriter

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The covenants with Israel have been fulfilled in their eternal inheritance through Jesus Christ.

There remains only the New Covenant of Jesus Christ for the people of God,
the Old Covenant being obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).
"The NT Scriptures conclude the truth of all Scripture."
Hello @Clare73,

The New Covenant is in abeyance now: for just at the Old Covenant was made with Israel, so will the New Covenant be ( Jeremiah 31:3 & Hebrews 8:8 ). That awaits the day when Israel will be brought to repentance at the coming of the Lord. (Zechariah 12:10)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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BABerean2

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That awaits the day when Israel will be brought to repentance at the coming of the Lord. (Zechariah 12:10)

Based on what the Apostle John recorded below part of Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at Calvary.

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Joh 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

The rest of the verse was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out in Jerusalem, and about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" (Acts of the Apostles 2:36) were "cut to the heart" when they realized they had killed their Messiah.

Based on what Paul said below, Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God and obey the Gospel.
Will there be a second chance at salvation on that day?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Based on these passages, there is no Plan B of salvation based on race on the day of His Second Coming.

.
 
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Hank77

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in Peter's epistle, as has been already remarked, we are told that prophecy is not open to private interpretation.
Who's private interpretation? Do you mean the readers of the scripture?

That scripture is saying that the words of the prophets are not their own interpretation/their own words but the words are directly from God/the Holy Spirit.

If I'm misunderstanding what you are saying please correct me.
 
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readywriter

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Who's private interpretation? Do you mean the readers of the scripture?

That scripture is saying that the words of the prophets are not their own interpretation/their own words but the words are directly from God/the Holy Spirit.

If I'm misunderstanding what you are saying please correct me.
Hello there, @Hank77,

Yes, I agree that 2 Peter 1:22 is saying that, I also believe that the hearer should receive it as it stands, and not impose his own understanding upon it.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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readywriter

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Would you give an example of what you mean? Thanks
Hello @Hank77,
I'm sorry not to have expressed myself more clearly. I was speaking generally, about the Scriptures as a whole, and not of the reference to 2 Peter specifically. God says what He means and means what He says, His Word needs no interpreting, just to be believed.

Thank you
 
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readywriter

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Based on what the Apostle John recorded below part of Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at Calvary.

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Joh 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Hello @BABerean2,

This entry of yours got overlooked, and unremarked, I'm sorry.

Yes, Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at Calvary, I agree.
BABerean2 said:-
The rest of the verse was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out in Jerusalem, and about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" (Acts of the Apostles 2:36) were "cut to the heart" when they realized they had killed their Messiah.
* I don't believe Zechariah 12:9-12 was fulfilled at Pentecost.
BABerean2said:-
Based on what Paul said below, Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God and obey the Gospel.
Will there be a second chance at salvation on that day?
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Based on these passages, there is no Plan B of salvation based on race on the day of His Second Coming.
* Interesting. Thankfully, verse 10 of Zechariah 12 is quoted in Matthew 24:30. Israel will look attentively with hope and concern upon Him Whom they pierced. Matthew 24:29 tells us that this will occur immediately after the tribulation of those days. There will be a great gathering of the elect (v.31).

'Before she travailed, she brought forth;
before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Who hath heard such a thing?
who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?
or shall a nation be born at once?
for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.'

(Isa 66:7-8)

* This is followed by the judgment of the Lord:-
'For, behold, the LORD will come with fire,
and with his chariots like a whirlwind,
to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh:
and the slain of the LORD shall be many.'

(Isa 66:15-16)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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BABerean2

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* Interesting. Thankfully, verse 10 of Zechariah 12 is quoted in Matthew 24:30. Israel will look attentively with hope and concern upon Him Whom they pierced. Matthew 24:29 tells us that this will occur immediately after the tribulation of those days. There will be a great gathering of the elect (v.31).

Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God and obey the Gospel in the passage below. There is no second chance of salvation based on race found in the passage.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


.
 
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Clare73

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Hello @Clare73,

The New Covenant is in abeyance now: for just at the Old Covenant was made with Israel, so will the New Covenant be ( Jeremiah 31:3 & Hebrews 8:8 ). That awaits the day when Israel will be brought to repentance at the coming of the Lord. (Zechariah 12:10)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I guess the apostle Paul didn't get the memo.

That is heresy.
 
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Guojing

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I guess the apostle Paul didn't get the memo.

That is heresy.

So long as you stick to the KJV, you will be fine.

Paul never told us gentiles in the Body of Christ that we are under the New Covenant.
 
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BABerean2

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Paul never told us gentiles in the Body of Christ that we are under the New Covenant.


The same Greek word "diatheke", which is translated as "covenant" in Hebrews 12:22-24, is also found in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. When Paul wrote the letter he used the word "diatheke".

G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.
Total KJV occurrences: 33

If your doctrine only works by using one translation, you have a problem.


The Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology has numerous conflicts with scripture which are outlined below.

Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?

(Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)


The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?


1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Galatians 3:8)


2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?


3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?


4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?


5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?


6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?


7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?


8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)


9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?


10. Watch the YouTube video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.


Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:


“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.)

What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?

Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?

Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?

Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13?

Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church?

.
 
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readywriter

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@readywriter said in reply#49:-
Hello @Clare73,

The New Covenant is in abeyance now: for just at the Old Covenant was made with Israel, so will the New Covenant be ( Jeremiah 31:3 & Hebrews 8:8 ). That awaits the day when Israel will be brought to repentance at the coming of the Lord. (Zechariah 12:10)
I guess the apostle Paul didn't get the memo.

That is heresy.
Hello @Clare73
What do you mean by saying 'I guess the apostle Paul didn't get the memo'? Also, will you please explain what you perceive to be heresy in my post.

Thank you :)
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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