The office of the priest

[Rebekah30]

You cannot show me where any disciple of Jesus ever called another man here on earth his father.

lol

I didn't think ppl still used that line, unless you are serious, my apologies then.

Ramon96 answered you in his posts. Listen.
Nothing wrong with it.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Who are the elders in the book of Revelation? The ones that "fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."

Is this not heavenly worship we are witnessing? Why do we think that worship in heaven would be different that worship here? Priest (Presbyteros) are involved in our Church. They are part of the clergy.

Bishops are the highest rank of the Clergy. All BIshops are essentially equal in their Apostolic ability and vote. They are filled with the same Holy Spirit. Presbyteros or elder is also an office of a younger upcoming Bishop. A Bishop in training. Most of them were Deacons first.

more later.

Forgive me...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Sooo......


1. You disagree with my Catholic teachers that priest = one who offers Sacrifices upon the Altar of the Lord and since the Holy Eucharist is a Sacrifice, that's why the Officient of such is a PRIEST?

2. How in the world is "priest" a shortened form of the word "presbyteros" in English? Totally lost me there!

3. No, priest in reference to an office in the local congregation is not ever mentioned in the NT. Not once. The ONLY times it is mentioned is in reference to those still under the Old Covenant ("the high priest Caiaphas" for example), in reference to Jesus, and in reference to all Christians. It's never mentioned as an congregational office of ministry. I think you know that.

.

I think you are highly mistaken.

You didn't respond to anything I wrote or asked.....


HOW am I mistaken? That my Catholic teachers did not teach me that "priest" is one who offers Sacrifices upon the Altar of the Lord which is what the clergyperson does in the Mass and therefore he is a PRIEST?

Or that I'm mistaken that in English, "priest" is a shortened form of the term "presbyteros." Actually, I think the burden of proof is on you to show how one term got shorted to the other in English - because that's news to me. Is it not the case in any other language? How, distinctively in English, are the two words related? Why, then, isn't it called The Priestly Church rather than The Presbyterian Church in the USA?



.

 

[Polycarp1]

Here's the problem: as with words like "god", "love", "law", etc., English has a generic term that includes the meanings of multiple terms in Hebrew or Greek. "Priest" is one of those> Hierius is one of those words. In Jewish Greek usage it means the Kohens, the sacrificing priests descended from Aaron whose job it was to tend the Holy Place in the Temple, and to offer the regular sacrifices there. Elsewhere it means the priests of temples and such to false pagan gods.

As OrthodoxyUSA's cite from Titus makes clear, the episkopoi, the local overseers set up by the apostles, ordained presbyterioi whose job it was to lead in the assembly (ecclesia), to preach and teach, to lead the prayers and the breaking of bread in thanksgiving (eucharistos). Key word is lead -- this was termed the laitourgia, the "work of the people" who joined with them in prayers and thanksgiving.

That term, presbyterioi, literally means "elders" and became, like "Senator", a term for an office held by the church's elders -- that of worship leader. As it migrated from Greek into Latin, Old French, and Old and Middle English, it modified to the English term "priest". I always mess up the etymology, but I'll simply note that "prester", as in the legendary Prester John, was one intermediate step.

Now, with the Medieval Western Church's emphasis on the "eucharistic sacrifice" (almost to the point that communion was rare), the terms conflated so that "priest" meaning "elder leading Christian worship" (presbyterios) was confused with "sacrificing Jewish/pagan priest" (hierius) to the point that "priest" became the proper English term for both offices.

In rebellion against this, many Reformation churches threw out the baby with the bathwater, and went to the literal translation of presbyterios as 'elder" while others simply transliterated it as "presbyter". The Church of England and the Jansenists kept "priest" and the Lutherans went with the alternate term "pastor" (Latin for "shepherd") commonly used for the parish priest in his pastoral-care role.

But a Methodist or Nazarene elder, a Lutheran pastor, or an Anglican, Catholic, or Orthodox priest are occupying precisely the same job -- the one defined by presbyterios in Scripture.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

This is part of a valid Apostolic sucession. That one was trained, hands on, over a number of years by two or more elders. That is how Deacons get promoted. And it's always by nomination not request.

Deacon means "Servant of God".

Deacons that come to us from this line are of true Apostolic sucession. Knowledge has been handed down from generation to generation though this line.

Forgive me...

 

[Rebekah30]

Great thread.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The laity must alway give their approval. Showing for the certainty of all that The Holy Spirit is watching over the clergy.

"AXIOS! AXIOS! AXIOS!" they proclaim...

The moment that there is not concensus among the laity, there is uncertainty that this person is to serve.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It is from this truely Apostolic group that we receive both "Truth" and wolves. Truth is always from within, while wolves can come from both within and outside.

We are the sheep, and it seems very logical that we are to stay within the fold and remain with the Apostolic shepherds. Else we wonder off with wolves.

Forgive me...

 

[sunlover1]

Here's the problem: as with words like "god", "love", "law", etc., English has a generic term that includes the meanings of multiple terms in Hebrew or Greek. "Priest" is one of those> Hierius is one of those words. In Jewish Greek usage it means the Kohens, the sacrificing priests descended from Aaron whose job it was to tend the Holy Place in the Temple, and to offer the regular sacrifices there. Elsewhere it means the priests of temples and such to false pagan gods.

As OrthodoxyUSA's cite from Titus makes clear, the episkopoi, the local overseers set up by the apostles, ordained presbyterioi whose job it was to lead in the assembly (ecclesia), to preach and teach, to lead the prayers and the breaking of bread in thanksgiving (eucharistos). Key word is lead -- this was termed the laitourgia, the "work of the people" who joined with them in prayers and thanksgiving.

That term, presbyterioi, literally means "elders" and became, like "Senator", a term for an office held by the church's elders -- that of worship leader. As it migrated from Greek into Latin, Old French, and Old and Middle English, it modified to the English term "priest". I always mess up the etymology, but I'll simply note that "prester", as in the legendary Prester John, was one intermediate step.

Now, with the Medieval Western Church's emphasis on the "eucharistic sacrifice" (almost to the point that communion was rare), the terms conflated so that "priest" meaning "elder leading Christian worship" (presbyterios) was confused with "sacrificing Jewish/pagan priest" (hierius) to the point that "priest" became the proper English term for both offices.

In rebellion against this, many Reformation churches threw out the baby with the bathwater, and went to the literal translation of presbyterios as 'elder" while others simply transliterated it as "presbyter". The Church of England and the Jansenists kept "priest" and the Lutherans went with the alternate term "pastor" (Latin for "shepherd") commonly used for the parish priest in his pastoral-care role.

But a Methodist or Nazarene elder, a Lutheran pastor, or an Anglican, Catholic, or Orthodox priest are occupying precisely the same job -- the one defined by presbyterios in Scripture.

Which is what?


11 And he gave some,
apostles; and some,
prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some,
pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come ind the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51675751#_ftnref2
http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51675751#_ftnref1

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

But a Methodist or Nazarene elder, a Lutheran pastor, or an Anglican, Catholic, or Orthodox priest are occupying precisely the same job -- the one defined by presbyterios in Scripture.

I disagree on the basis that they serve differently and believe differently about what they are doing.

Forgive me...

 

[simonthezealot]

I do know you and others say it is not a re-sacrifice, but we are strongly told there is one sacrifice and it was done for good. The letter to the Hebrews stresses it


Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins he sat down at the right hand of God,

13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"
17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Right on!

 

[simonthezealot]

It is from this truely Apostolic group that we receive both "Truth" and wolves.

which apostolic group O? copts? anglican? romanist? EO? OO?
Maybe they are all wolves each parading as the true church all while the true church "THE ELECT" humbly walk in His ways.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

which apostolic group O? copts? anglican? romanist? EO? OO?
Maybe they are all wolves each parading as the true church all while the true church "THE ELECT" humbly walk in His ways.

Judge for yourself, you must.

Forgive me...

 

[Thekla]

Now, with the Medieval Western Church's emphasis on the "eucharistic sacrifice" (almost to the point that communion was rare), the terms conflated so that "priest" meaning "elder leading Christian worship" (presbyterios) was confused with "sacrificing Jewish/pagan priest" (hierius) to the point that "priest" became the proper English term for both offices.

Just wanted to note that the term hierius is used in Revelation (and also in Hebrews, as archi/hierius and hierius, where it is used specifically in reference to Christ - unlike the Revelation passages).
(Revelation 1:6, 5:10, 20:6)

 

[Standing Up]

1. In the NT, there is no office of priest. The only time that's mentioned in the NT is in reference to Christ who is the High Priest and to all Christians.

YES!

2. What I was taught in the Catholic Church is that the clergyman is called a "priest" because he offers the "bloodless" Sacrifice of the Holy Eucharist in the Mass upon the Altar of the Lord. A priest is one who offers Sacrifices - as a Catholic priest does, according to Catholic theology.

Cutting very close to home I see, but YES!


[close]3. There appear to be several offices that developed early on - by the 50's anyway: Bishop, presbyter/elder/pastor, deacon. It's not clear exactly how these offices were distinctive, but many are of the opinion that a bishop was a supervisory role, the presbyter/elder/pastor was a teaching role, and deacon was a serving role focused mainly on non-spiritual physical issues (caring for widows, for example). All these originally seem limited to the individual congregation. EVENTUALLY, bishop developed into a role of supervising especially clergy in a group of congregations, presbyter/elder/pastor into the spiritual teacher of the congregation (similar to the role of rabbi in the synogogue) and deacon decreased and eventually faded away and got reassigned to various other offices with various monikers.[/quote]

Here's my working model:

Born again, baby, weaned (from spiritual milk to meat), elder.

Those offices are in the elder area, yes?

4. In COMMON contemporary usage, "priest" is often interchangable with pastor. Today, "father" "priest" "pastor" are all the same thing in common churchese. In Europe, Lutherans call their congregational clergy "Priests" even though they reject the concept of the Holy Eucharist as an on-going Sacrifice of Jesus on the altar; the term continues even though it no longer carries the thought of one offering Sacrifices on an altar. In the USA, Lutherans adopted the term "pastor" and use that almost exclusively.

Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

This language barrier will be more easily breached, if folks would understand fully your second point to which I second.

 

[simonthezealot]

Judge for yourself, you must.

Forgive me...

Already have as indicated in the tail of my quote.
i'll not be institutionalized like the rest of you.
I'll walk in HIS way note Pope whoevers!

 

[simonthezealot]

Nothing wrong with it.

i'd disagree dear sis, Jesus the Christ was quite clear in His admonishing.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Already have as indicated in the tail of my quote.
i'll not be institutionalized like the rest of you.
I'll walk in HIS way note Pope whoevers!

We don't have a Papacy Simon.

Forgive me...

 

[Polycarp1]

Which is what?


11 And he gave some,
apostles; and some,
prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some,
pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come ind the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51675751#_ftnref2
http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51675751#_ftnref1

From your quote from First Corinthians, I bolded and underscored the portion that I believe answers your question.

Others are of course free to disagree.

 

[Polycarp1]

I disagree on the basis that they serve differently and believe differently about what they are doing.

Forgive me...

Not precisely, sir. The Nazarene minister who posted here as "WesleyJohn" was quite clear on the fact that they see themselves as successors of John Wesley, presbyter of the Church of England, to minister word and sacrament to and with their people.

The origins of Methodism as a separate denomination rather than a movement within the church date back to the latitudinarian Bishop of London's refusal to ordain men to serve as priests in America, which lay evangelists from the Methodist Societies were evangelizing in the mid 1700s. Only two priests from the Methodist Societies were prepared to serve in America, and it was, for legal reasons, included in the See of London.

After prayer and study, Wesley convinced himself that when a bishop refuses to do his duty to the church, it falls on a presbyter to act in his stead. He therefore laid hands on those two priests and set them aside as "general superintendents" to give oversight to what the Methodists (then still a movement within the Church of England) were doing in America. One of them, Francis Asbury, used the title "Bishop" in recognition that he was providing episkopé.

On the standard only-bishops-may-ordain praxis, this did not transmit valid apostolic succession. But it seems in a very real way to echo exactly what happened with Paul and Timothy. I'd pray long and hard before explicitly and definitively denying Methodist, Wesleyan, and Nazarene ministers the accolade of presbyterios. Your opinion, of course, may well differ.