The office of the priest

[Kristos]

It makes me want to cry to see just how uncaringly the church has disregarded the Word of God. (Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

Absolutely. We don't disregard this passage, in fact we read it aloud every year! Thanks for the reminder

 

[Ramon96]

It makes me want to cry to see just how uncaringly the church has disregarded the Word of God. (Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

No...what is amazing, however, is your private interpretation of the text which contradicts the whole of Scripture and the Living Tradition of the Church. This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Christ was not against the titles per se.

The word "Father" and "Child" was used by the Holy Apostles, not always denoting a blood relation (i.e., Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13, 1 Cor. 4:15, 1 Cor. 4:17, Phil. 2:22, Philemon 10, 1 Tim. 1:2,18). Saint Paul was the Early Christians Spiritual Father in the faith, as he told them.

I suggest you read the above link given by OrthodoxyUSA, and read Scriptures as whole and not taking bits by bits to come up with a personal interpretation to attack us Orthodox.

In IC.XC,
Ramon

P.S. We love that Scripture, which is why we use it liturgically!

 

[Thekla]

Paraphrasing Christ: Do not confuse any man with the creator.

Forgive me...

Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

Psalm 100:3

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The term for "father" in Greek also means origin/originator. God the Father is the origin/originator of creation and revelation.

QFT!

Forgive me...

 

[Polycarp1]

It makes me want to cry to see just how uncaringly the church has disregarded the Word of God. (Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

Way to prooftext! I suppose you'd also extend that, since Christ is the Good Shepherd, who lays down His life for His sheep, that no man should be called Pastor (Latin for shepherd) -- nor minister, for it is the Holy Spirit who ministers to us in our needs. Gee, you could also note that James says that God is the only Giver of good gifts.

Me, I like to think that it's a message to put no man in the place of God, nor to allow yourself to proudly claim a place that is His alone. (Have your eye or hand ever caused you to sin? Did you follow Jesus's hyperbolic instructions blindly when they did?) As Marcus Borg said, we should always take Scripture seriously -- but sometimes we must not take it literally, because God does use figures of speech to explain things to our sinful, finite, blinded, willful selves.

 

[Standing Up]

"orthodox Christians" on this thread: Do you agree that The Church teaches that both the office of "Priest" and "The Priesthood of all believers" are true Christian teachings?

Forgive me...

What does that mean? All Americans can be President, but there is one President? All believers are priests, but you have to be in the office of a priest?

There are gifts and callings (apostles, prophets, evangelists, helpers, etc), but not everyone is an evangelist, etc. And we probably wouldn't say each believer is an evangelist. So, what does priest office and priesthood of all mean?

 

[Standing Up]

Hey folks, take the personal comments elsewhere.

 

[Standing Up]

yes

Note also, that the general understanding of the "action" denoted by the term priest (offering all given by God to God in thanksgiving) is the "being/doing" of a Christian.

So, does this mean you, OUSA, me, etc are priests?

 

[Giver]

No...what is amazing, however, is your private interpretation of the text which contradicts the whole of Scripture and the Living Tradition of the Church. This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Christ was not against the titles per se.

The word "Father" and "Child" was used by the Holy Apostles, not always denoting a blood relation (i.e., Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13, 1 Cor. 4:15, 1 Cor. 4:17, Phil. 2:22, Philemon 10, 1 Tim. 1:2,18). Saint Paul was the Early Christians Spiritual Father in the faith, as he told them.

I suggest you read the above link given by OrthodoxyUSA, and read Scriptures as whole and not taking bits by bits to come up with a personal interpretation to attack us Orthodox.

In IC.XC,
Ramon

You cannot show me where any disciple of Jesus ever called another man here on earth his father.

Why is it whenever people don’t like what a verse says, the say it is taken out of context, hyperbole, or he wasn’t speaking to us?

First I didn’t take that passage out of context. You will have a hard time saying Jesus was exaggerating when he said that about calling another man father. Telling me that he was just talking to the Jews is almost the most ridiculous excuse of all of them.

Isn’t it strange how when it is convenient for your understanding of the written Word of God it becomes a history book? Well it is not. The Holy Spirit had those words placed in the Bible because they are talking to us.

Also I didn’t just come to my understanding by my reasoning. I asked Jesus, and he told me that it was dangerous for both parties. To call another man father is dangerous, and to be called father is dangerous.

It is a shame that you think only you or your church can read the whole Word of God, and have the Holy Spirit explain it to him or her.

 

[Thekla]

So, does this mean you, OUSA, me, etc are priests?

Do you offer all that God has given back to God in thanksgiving ? Then, yes.
The particular role of priest (as opposed to the general action) in the community -as described in the NT- is the calling of some.

 

[Thekla]

You cannot show me where any disciple of Jesus ever called another man here on earth his father.

Why is it whenever people don’t like what a verse says, the say it is taken out of context, hyperbole, or he wasn’t speaking to us?

First I didn’t take that passage out of context. You will have a hard time saying Jesus was exaggerating when he said that about calling another man father. Telling me that he was just talking to the Jews is almost the most ridiculous excuse of all of them.

Isn’t it strange how when it is convenient for your understanding of the written Word of God it becomes a history book? Well it is not. The Holy Spirit had those words placed in the Bible because they are talking to us.

Also I didn’t just come to my understanding by my reasoning. I asked Jesus, and he told me that it was dangerous for both parties. To call another man father is dangerous, and to be called father is dangerous.

It is a shame that you think only you or your church can read the whole Word of God, and have the Holy Spirit explain it to him or her.

I also responded to you in post #39

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What does that mean? All Americans can be President, but there is one President? All believers are priests, but you have to be in the office of a priest?

There are gifts and callings (apostles, prophets, evangelists, helpers, etc), but not everyone is an evangelist, etc. And we probably wouldn't say each believer is an evangelist. So, what does priest office and priesthood of all mean?

For instance... I could baptize someone if there were the need. But I do not lead The Divine Liturgy in the absence of The Bishop. That is the job of the clergy.

Priest is just one of the ranks of the office of clergy.

Laity
Chanter / Acolite
Reader
Subdeacon
Deacon
Priest
Bishop

There are levels between these as well. For the most part they are training stages.

For instance... According to canon a Bishop should be able to quote the entire Psalms from memory.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context).

QFT!

Forgive me....

 

[Ramon96]

You cannot show me where any disciple of Jesus ever called another man here on earth his father.

I just did. Just because you either ignore them or reject them entirely is not my problem Giver.

The word "Father" and "Child" was used by the Holy Apostles, denoting a blood relation and spirituality (i.e., Acts 3:13,25; 5:30, Acts 7:2; 22:1; 14, 1 John 2:13, 1 Cor. 4:15, 1 Cor. 4:17, Phil. 2:22, Philemon 10, 1 Tim. 1:2,18). Saint Paul was the Early Christians Spiritual Father in the faith, as he told them (1 Cor 4:15).

1 Cor. 4:15 - Paul writes, "I became your father in Christ Jesus."

What so hard to understand about these verses? Jesus Christ was not against the titles per se. Did he not tell us the "honor our mother and father"?

Why is it whenever people don’t like what a verse says, the say it is taken out of context, hyperbole, or he wasn’t speaking to us?

Isn't this what you during the above Scriptures I gave? I mostly certainty like that Scripture, yet I take Scriptures as a whole and through the Living Tradition of the Church to come up with a orthodox understanding of any given Scripture.

First I didn’t take that passage out of context. You will have a hard time saying Jesus was exaggerating when he said that about calling another man father. Telling me that he was just talking to the Jews is almost the most ridiculous excuse of all of them.

You have a hard time taking Scriptures as a whole. Rather, what you do is post a Scripture, while ignoring the context of it and ignoring what other Scriptures said. Apparently, The Holy Apostles did not took him literally, and understood what he meant!

Isn’t it strange how when it is convenient for your understanding of the written Word of God it becomes a history book? Well it is not. The Holy Spirit had those words placed in the Bible because they are talking to us.

Who said it is a history book? They are talking to us, yet we must understand what he [Christ] meant.

Also I didn’t just come to my understanding by my reasoning. I asked Jesus, and he told me that it was dangerous for both parties. To call another man father is dangerous, and to be called father is dangerous.

Or so it is based upon your private revelation? I wonder how many of your beliefs are based on what this "Jesus told you"........

Perhaps you should tangle the Scriptures at hand, instead of ignoring them........

In IC.XC,
Ramon

 

[Standing Up]

For instance... I could baptize someone if there were the need. But I do not lead The Divine Liturgy in the absence of The Bishop. That is the job of the clergy.

Priest is just one of the ranks of the office of clergy.

Laity
Chanter / Acolite
Reader
Subdeacon
Deacon
Priest
Bishop

There are levels between these as well. For the most part they are training stages.

For instance... According to canon a Bishop should be able to quote the entire Psalms from memory.

Forgive me...

I suppose one way to look at it is each born-again believer could climb the ladder you laid out, ascending from laity (newbie) to clergy (oldster)?

The other way to look at it that each born-again believer is "clergy" who grows into a baby, is weaned, is an elder.

Different terms only or anything else?

BTW, what does QFT mean?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I suppose one way to look at it is each born-again believer could climb the ladder you laid out, ascending from laity (newbie) to clergy (oldster)?

The other way to look at it that each born-again believer is "clergy" who grows into a baby, is weaned, is an elder.

Different terms only or anything else?

BTW, what does QFT mean?

QFT = Quoted for Truth.

There is the matter of being "ordained".

In The Church, to become clergy one must...

1. be recommeded

2. be accepted by the Bishop to be trained

3. be sponsored by two clergy

4. be trained through the ranks

5. maintain candidacy through speculation of all (the laity states AXIOS or not)

5. be ordained, laying on of hands by the Bishop.

6. maintain the office in good status for all eternity.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I'm suprised that nobody has really asked the question as to what a Priest can do that we can't.

The answer is very little.

A priest is the glove on the hand of the Bishop. He does nothing that the Bishop does not direct.


Forgive me...

 

[sunlover1]

No...what is amazing, however, is your private interpretation of the text which contradicts the whole of Scripture and the Living Tradition of the Church. This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Christ was not against the titles per se.

Context IS everything yes.
But Jesus' reason wasnt hypocricy.
His reason is clearly stated:

6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi:
for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth:
for one is your Father, which is in heaven.http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51664467#_ftn1
http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51664467#_ftnref1

 

[Giver]

I just did. Just because you either ignore them or reject them entirely is not my problem Giver.

The word "Father" and "Child" was used by the Holy Apostles, not always denoting a blood relation (i.e., Acts 7:2; 22:1; 14, 1 John 2:13, 1 Cor. 4:15, 1 Cor. 4:17, Phil. 2:22, Philemon 10, 1 Tim. 1:2,18). Saint Paul was the Early Christians Spiritual Father in the faith, as he told them (1 Cor 4:15).

1 Cor. 4:15 - Paul writes, "I became your father in Christ Jesus."

What so hard to understand about these verses? Jesus Christ was not against the titles per se. Did he not tell us the "honor our mother and father"?




Isn't this what you during the above Scriptures I gave? I mostly certainty like that Scripture, yet I take Scriptures as a whole and through the Living Tradition of the Church to come up with a correct and orthodox understanding of any given Scripture.



You have a hard time taking Scriptures as a whole. Rather, what you do is post a Scripture, while ignoring the context of it and ignoring what other Scriptures said. Apparently, The Holy Apostles did not took him literally, and understood what he meant! Why don't you?



Who said it is a history book?

Also I didn’t just come to my understanding by my reasoning. I asked Jesus, and he told me that it was dangerous for both parties. To call another man father is dangerous, and to be called father is dangerous. [/qupte]

Or so it is based upon your private revelation?

In IC.XC,
Ramon

Not once did a disciple of Jesus call another man, on earth, his father. Paul didn’t call another man his father. Read what Jesus said. Now Jesus said call no man on earth your father. How many priests do you know that are your father? Yes I fathered children and they may have an excuse to call me father. That is not what Jesus was referring to, and you know it.


(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

 

[Ramon96]

Not once did a disciple of Jesus call another man, on earth, his father. Paul didn’t call another man his father. Read what Jesus said.

They did (Read below). Saint Paul told the Early Christians that he was there Father. Was Saint Paul wrong?

The word "Father" and "Child" was used by the Holy Apostles, not always denoting a blood relation (i.e., Acts 7:2; 22:1; 14, 1 John 2:13, 1 Cor. 4:15, 1 Cor. 4:17, Phil. 2:22, Philemon 10, 1 Tim. 1:2,18). Saint Paul was the Early Christians Spiritual Father in the faith, as he told them (1 Cor 4:15).

Saint Peter (and Saint John) called David "Father" and called the OT Patriarchs "Fathers" (Acts 3:13,25; 5:30, Acts 4:25).

Read Acts 7:11-12, 15,19,38,44-45,51-52 (Stephen refers to our "fathers" in the faith), Acts 7:32 (Stephen calls God the God of our "fathers.") and Acts 13:17,32,36; 24:14; 26:6; 28:17,25 (Saint Paul also refers to the God of our "fathers" in the faith). Read Rom. 4:1 (Saint Paul calls Abraham our "forefather.), Rom. 4:16-17 (Saint Paul says that Abraham is the "father" of us all and the "father" of many nations), and Rom. 9:10 (Saint Paul calls Isaac, a spiritual leader, our "forefather"). Saint James called Abraham "our Father" (James 2:21). Read Acts 22:3 (Saint Paul says he was educated according to the strict law of our "fathers"). Read 1 Peter 1:18, 2 Peter 3:4 (Saint Peter talked about our "Fathers"). Apparently, Christ' disciples err right?

You have a hard time taking Scriptures as a whole. Rather, what you do is post a Scripture, while ignoring the context of it and ignoring what other Scriptures said. Apparently, The Holy Apostles did not took him literally, and understood what he meant! In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Christ was against the Jewish leaders because they did not practice what they preach, but they demand there fellow man to lavish them with special titles. Christ was not against the titles per se.

How about "teachers"? In the church at Antioch certain men were called "prophets and teachers" (Acts 13:1). Saint Paul not only recognized teachers as gifts of God to the Church (1 Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11), but he also did not hesitate to call himself "a teacher of the Gentiles." (2 Tim 1:11). Another reason why not to take Christ' words literally! Saint Paul didn't! Why should I listen to you Giver and take Christ' word literally, whereas the Holy Apostles didn't?

Yes I fathered children and they may have an excuse to call me father. That is not what Jesus was referring to, and you know it.

Why not? You take the verse so literally! If we take the verses at face value, then we can't called our biological dad "Father". So when it fits your purpose, you make exceptions.

In IC.XC,
Ramon

P.S. It is not my fault that you either ignore these Scriptures or reject them entirely.